LIPO on fire: what can we do to control it & limit damage?

[JIM MARCUM]

http://www.safetyemporium.com/ILPI_S...tail.htm?09592

http://www.conney.com/Product_-Amere...70_11367_11367

Water is looking better and better along with the 5 gal bucket of sand and ABC Extinguisher that I take to racing events.

D.

And there is this from the above site:

WARNING
The following statements are intended for guidance purposes only. Attempting to fight a
lithium battery fire should only be attempted by trained and equipped responders. Consult
federal, state, and local regulations for emergency response regulations, emergency
responder training requirements, and fire brigade training and protective equipment
requirements. Cells or batteries exposed to excessive heat beyond their recommended
temperature range can explode. During thermal decomposition chlorine (Cl2), hydrogen
chloride (HCl), and sulfur dioxide (SO2) can be formed.
In the unlikely event that primary lithium batteries are involved in or near a fire, the principle
concern is personal safety. The area should immediately be evacuated and all personnel
accounted for. Emergency response organizations, either internal or external, should be
immediately notified. The secondary concern in the unlikely event of a fire involving lithium
batteries is to prevent the spread of the fire and minimize cell venting. The most effective way
of achieving these goals is through the use of large amounts of water. Lithium metal is a water
reactive material; however in the unlikely event of a lithium fire, the lithium would be rapidly
consumed thus minimizing the risk of a lithium-water reaction.
Flooding the area with water accomplishes two tasks. The water will cool surrounding cells and
batteries and reduce the likelihood of additional cells venting. Flooding waters will also help to
extinguish any secondary fires present in the area. In the event of a cell venting, a water fog
pattern will help to reduce airborne concentrations of sulfur dioxide gas. The water will become
a very weak sulfuric acid and is typically diluted by the large amounts of water used.When attempting to fight a lithium battery fire, appropriate personal protective equipment
should be worn. Respiratory protection should include self contained breathing apparatus and
protective clothing should include firefighter turnout or bunker gear per local regulations.
Portable fire extinguishers should be considered a last resort for fighting a lithium battery fire
as they require emergency responders to be in very close proximity to the fire. There are
several types of portable extinguishers available commercially.
Class D fire extinguishers (copper based) have been developed for and proven successful for
extinguishing lithium and lithium alloy fires. The compound acts as a smothering agent and also
acts as a heat sink. Copper-based extinguishing media is able to cling to vertical surfaces. Care
should be taken to ensure that Class D fire extinguishers are of the copper-type, and not
sodium chloride. The sodium chloride extinguishing agent is not intended for the high heat of a
lithium fire, nor will it cling to vertical surfaces.
Graphite-based extinguishing media are effective on smaller lithium metal fires. These work by
smothering the fire. This material will not cling to vertical surfaces, but has been developed for
high-heat metal fires such as magnesium and lithium.

The bottom line is: DUNK A BURNING LIPO IN WATER IMMEDIATELY!!! JIM

NOTE: 140 degrees F seems to be the LIPO fire danger zone. If your LIPOs are at or above 140 degrees after a run - immediately cool the LIPOs down, run a less agressive prop and/or a lower KV motor.

[Fluid]

Two comments to the last three posts. Regarding 10S boats with 4 packs - the fewer packs the less chance of failure. That is one reason why the commercial aircraft industry is moving away from four-engined planes - less chance of failure. Four LiPo packs in close proximity means a higher chance of fire. With the arrival of high capacity (6500+) packs we can cut the risk in half by running 10S1P. Another reason for 10S failures is cheap. These big boats are expensive, and there is a trend to go for cheap packs. IME cheap packs and high power equals failure of one kind or another.

Second, it does not matter if the burning source (LiPo) is "extinguished" - even if it is, it can immediately re-ignite the nearby fuel source because it is still very hot. Extinguishers should be for the fuel source - wood and plastic - and not the LiPos. The latter need to be physically removed from the fuel either by immersion of LiPo and fuel, or by placing the burning LiPos in a fuel-free area. Period.



.

[Stinger9D9]

I saw this video a few years back, the guy (crazily) initiates a lipo fire inside a simple steel cash box. It seems to contain the fire (but not the smoke) surprisingly well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M5ftkN9PtY

Don't try puncturing a lipo with a screwdriver at home...or anywhere else for that matter, but it does show an alternative to lipo charging bags.

[JIM MARCUM]

And, just so some of you know, this is the type of thread I was looking for. It's constructive and helpful and I hope that if we get enough solid information on here, it will become a proof source for the site. I know Terry has extensive resources at his disposal and I hope he comes up with some good information to share. Other racers do, too. For lack of a better word, the other thread was too toxic for good information to be shared.

Thank you David. It was my intent with this thread to get away from the acidic & conflicting information that poisioned my first thread.

At last we now have opinions from those who make & sell LIPO batteries, although there are apparently two camps even among "experts" regarding the use of water to quench an ongoing LIPO fire: One manufacturer states NOT to put water on a burning LIPO, and recommends using dry chemical (baking soda) fire extinguishers to control the fire;

The other camp (my camp) invokes a scientifically defensable dissertation asserting that WATER (even sprinklers) is the best at reducing both the heat produced by the burning lithium. and acts as a heat sink to slow the reaction down. And further, states "The sodium chloride [ baking soda ] extinguishing agent is not intended for the high heat of a lithium fire, nor will it cling to vertical surfaces."

I have personally been involved in 4 LIPO fires.

The first one was caused, as it usually is, by human error - mine. A poorly anchored LIPO became loose while running my boat - was shorted by contact with the driveshaft collet & began smoking as the boat was returning to the shore. By the time I reached the boat & ripped off the canopy the LIPO had burst into flames. I quickly realized the seriousness of what was happening (smoke & flames galore), so I tossed the flaming LIPO in the lake. Dunking it greatly reduced the amount of smoke being generated, and had the immediate effect of slowing down the chemical reaction. While it did not put the fire out - it CONTROLLED it. After about 20 minutes it stopped bubbling and was disposed of. The boat was a loss, but no one was hurt. A very good ending.

The second was the fire at the Nats. After the cooler full of flaming LIPOs was removed from the trailer (Thanks David!!!), I ran to the lake and filled the cooler with LA lake water. The results were the same as my first encounter - the LIPO fire was immediately extinguished, and the heat of the chemical reaction was reduced to a controllable level. Still burped smoke bubbles for time, but smoke production was greatly reduced - and was now downwind from humans & pets.

The third & fourth LIPO fires were created by myself at my 1 acre home to satisfy my curiousity. I had a couple of DragonRed 4S 4800mAh 45C LIPOs that had developed one swolen cell each at last years Legg Lake SAWs. I layed them on the dirt and stabbed them with a 1" thick 3' long steel shaft, pointed on one end. The resulting fire & smoke from the first LIPO was a real eye opener. So much so, I had my 43 year old son watch as I stabbed the second one. The sound of escaping gas - the flames & smoke were impressive. Both LIPOs (stabbed on separate days) were allowed to burn out naturally, taking about an hour to cool to a safe temperature. Nothing left but a stack of copper plates, the bullet leads, and a gooey fire shinged mess in the dirt. Nasty. Very nasty.

So in my personal experience - the most effective method to CONTROL a burning LIPO is to get it away from from any combustables and people - preferably down wind - and toss it in a bucket full of water. CONTROL by DUNKING works!!!

I do NOT recommend fighting the LIPO fire itself with a hose or water based fire extinguisher. This is especially true if the fire started while being charged - if is still plugged in it can ELECTROCUTE YOU!!!

Please, follow the rules when using LIPOs, be safe, and keep a bucket of water handy. JIM