Flip over problem

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  • 1945dave
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2012
    • 304

    #16
    When tunnel hulls first hit the model scean we saw all kinds of air dams, spoilers, wings etc. The reason the original 3 point hydroplanes were called spoon bills was because they took advantage of the air lifting the boat out of the water for greater speeds. As techology pushed performance the spoon bill design became too lifting and so they notched back the decking to reduce the excessive lift, hence the pickle fork. The summary of this story is there always will be the weak link in a design. Yours is the short boat length with an abundance of horse power. Part of the reason that the Genesis model is very fast is same reason the full scale Mystic 50 foot cat is the world record holder. Exactly what the proboat Miss Geico and other short and wide cats bring to the table performance wise has nothing to do with the proportions of the full scale Mystic 50 or and model using those same proportions. Not that I am a scale advocate my point is just that from a design point of view the long and skinny proportions of the Genesis are exactly the same as the full scale Mystic. Approx. 3.5 to 1. That is the boat is 3.5 times as long as it is wide. The proboat and other shorter but wider in proportion boat all suffer some of the same problem you are experiencing. The critics of the Genesis say it is too narrow and prone to rolling over to the side in the turns so it is a better SAW type boat than a heat racer. The wider cats may be less prone to roll over but they are also prone to blow overs as well. Therefore all things considered every design has what is called it critical speed factor. As funny as CatMan tried to be his point wasproblem if you don't try to go that fast. My point as is yours believe that the boat is not yet near its critical speed therefore with a little effort we should be able to increase the speed and still not flip.

    Now in case anyone missed my earlier concern it is really very simple. With negative prop thrust you introduce two different forces to over come one bad habit. The two forces are related but different. One is pushing the bow of the boat downward--that would seem logical to offset the bow lifting up and over. The second force which goes hand in hand with the for every action there is an oposite and equal action --- that is the lifting of the stern from negative thrust, Again just think about it for a minute. How do you change the ride attitude with the prop thrust if not by forcing up the stern of the boat to leverage the front end in a downward direction. The bow does not want to go under the water so it bounces back up to the point that porposing or hobby horsing is just part of the normal expected result. In my opinion this is never going to fix your problem only make it worse.

    jcald2000 suggested the air dam. I remember when the first full scale hydros added a angled wedge under the forward deck and they called them spoilers . These can be made from thin aluminum bent at a 45 degree angle towards the rear. Two different concepts in truth but each affect the riding attitude of the boat in the straight away high speed runs by breaking up the lifting forces at the nose of the boat. This could produce a result for your problem that will satisfy you. Stick these air dam sections under the nose with two stick servo tape. 2 minutes will tell you if this will produce your desired objective.If you like this then we can tweak the air dam for a more permanent solution.

    A few questions, what is your actual boat called? I want to do some checking. I expect you run the boat with a full cowel, can you take a picture with it mounted. Just one good profile shot would be helpful. Was this originally a outboard hull? Do you know how much it weighs? Remember, small steps.

    Dave

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    • RandyatBBY
      Fast Electric Addict!
      • Sep 2007
      • 3915

      #17
      Dave's info is good and sound, But I was drawn by the first question. COG or Balance of a boat. OPC Tunnels are flying wings and to keep them on the water the rear tips of the sponsons need to be planted. The prop is way aft and holds the boat at a angle. But you have converted the boat in to a CAT with a shallow tunnel and no extension of the prop to hold the boat down in the front. When the boat runs forward and gets loose the balance needs to help keep the whole boat on the water. The COG needs to be setup so the boat if launched off a wave comes down tail first. This boat packs a lot of air, it is the design. Some air needs to be released or defused too.
      Randy
      For ABS, Fiberglass, Carbon hulls and Stainless hardware
      BBY Racing

      Comment

      • 1945dave
        Senior Member
        • Mar 2012
        • 304

        #18
        Randy, in the original post sash stated the COG was 36 percent. I am not sure a CG further forward is indicated but this boat is very definately kiteing. I still think the prop is too deep and I am surprised that sash says the X445 was too slow. So now I am trying to get some of the basics known. How heavy is the on the water configuration with the 6S batteries he is running? I tried following the thread that sash mentioned above and the guy Howard has made some impressive runs with that proboat and also the Genesis. The 31 inch proboat supposedly ran 82 mph without air dams or wings using the same motor. If that is true then there would be no reason to doubt sash should be able to hit closer to 60 mph and not flip over.

        Comment

        • 1945dave
          Senior Member
          • Mar 2012
          • 304

          #19
          Sash, check and see if these links are like your boat?





          I think it is the same boat and the 1st video shows supposedly a 10S configuration with the batteries buried in the nose and several runs looking pretty good. The video claims he did 75 mph without air dams or wings or spoilers. I notice he is running a 3 blade prop.

          The 2nd link shows a 6S configuration that supposedly went 58 mph.

          If this boat can go faster than you are without flipping it is reasonable to expect yours could do so as well. I don't care what batteries and motor just the actual speed. Now that I have seen this it might be that the CG could be even further forward than 36 percent.

          To follow the link just copy the line and paste it in your favorite brouser.

          Dave

          Comment

          • sash
            Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 40

            #20
            IMAG0195.jpgIMAG0196.jpgDave I've mounted the trim tabs and moved the strut level with the bottom of the boat.
            The boat weighs 7.9 pound with 6s on board. Checked the COG again and it stands @ 36%. Can't get it any lower the battery is againts the motor.
            The video is the same as my boat and you can here the thing porposing. Claiming 75 mph a bit too much I think. Maybe thats why GFREAK went under.
            Anyway I'm going to the lake and I'll take a video of the run.

            Cheers

            Comment

            • sash
              Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 40

              #21
              Dave those trim tabs have made a big difference. Mind you these are only 1 1/4 " long, the only size available in stock. The same strut settings without tabs pulled 41 mph before flip over. Now shes pulling 48 mph and just on that borderline before shes blows over. I did'nt want to hold that throttle any longer you can hear it when I gave it bursts. Nose has dropped to about 3'' compared to 4". Here is the video link : http://youtu.be/m4Va7ha7R2E

              Comment

              • 1945dave
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2012
                • 304

                #22
                That video helps. I think you are well on the way and that boat makes for interesting speculation as to how fast can it go. Very definately you have more power than you have used. I also heard the sounds you have referred to in other post about the porposing sound. In this case (Jim help me out here) I think the sound you are hearing is not so much as a porposing type of sound but a sound of the prop trying to climb out of the water. By that I mean the prop is lifting the rear end up and out of the water until it cavitates and then when the back end drops back down the prop bites and jerks the bow up and over. If my long range diagnosis is close to right there are things we can do to the prop like cupping the outside edge of the blades to reduce lifting. See if you can borrow or obtain a 3 blade one size lower of the prop you are running now. If for example this is a X457 drop down to the X455 three blade. That is a pretty pond you have available but a little short in the straight for your performance ability. Turning seems to be your strength, hope heat racing is in your future. Glad the tabs helped.

                Dave

                Comment

                • sash
                  Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 40

                  #23
                  Thanks for your help Dave. The pond is actually 1/4 mile long a bit deceiving in the video. I'll try and get my hands on a brass three blade. I had a 52 mm plastic and destroyed it in 5 secounds. I'll go back to the shed and work on that pranther 230, I'm still not happy with its balance. Bad casting worst I've ever seen even loose on the shaft. Any idea what that horrible screach was in the end ?

                  Comment

                  • 1945dave
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2012
                    • 304

                    #24
                    I expected you to tell us the flex shaft slipped inside the collet. That or a dry strut bearing?

                    Yeah, you made the comment about balancing and sharpening. Balance is real important, sharpening not so much.

                    Comment

                    • RandyatBBY
                      Fast Electric Addict!
                      • Sep 2007
                      • 3915

                      #25
                      Looking at the video you are having slight prop lift experiences and to get the boat to run at full speed I would take a longer run at it. The boat hardly has a chance to settle in to form or correct ride plane and you are letting off the throttle and turning. You are running over your wake all over the place. We let the water settle to make passes. Have you looked at SAW videos? I am just trying to help you, Hope you do not take me for rude.

                      Sounds like you spun something.
                      Randy
                      For ABS, Fiberglass, Carbon hulls and Stainless hardware
                      BBY Racing

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                      • rc2266
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2011
                        • 312

                        #26
                        Hey Dave, those looked like the old g freak videos
                        I'm married with children, you can't scare me!

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                        • sash
                          Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 40

                          #27
                          Just regreased the strut before I went out. I'll check that collet. Howard Lee made a comment on the X450 having too much lift and thats why he went for pranther S230 48mm with more pitch 3". The X452 must have even more. Any way I'll try to get that pranther 100 % !

                          Comment

                          • sash
                            Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 40

                            #28
                            Thanks Randy I'll give it a go next run.

                            Comment

                            • sash
                              Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 40

                              #29
                              That thing i spun in the video was the 3/16 flexshaft. Bent as a nail. You guys really know your stuff. The boats prop must be leaving the water to that.

                              Comment

                              • 1945dave
                                Senior Member
                                • Mar 2012
                                • 304

                                #30
                                It is just that we have seen all of this before, been there done that. Exactly what prop were you running? The X452?

                                Dave

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