Stock Genesis Motor on 5S ?

**1945dave** · 04-20-2012, 12:12 PM

CatMan, I am not sure the weak link in your setup is the motor. I think the stock motor can handle safely the 5S powerand no doubt the ESC can handle 5S power, but I do want to comment on the batteries in a moment. But first are you running the stock hardware and the stock square drive .150 flex shaft?? If so you should consider upgrading to the 3/16th (.187) one piece shaft. Also you need to understand this beautiful boat is built very light. Jumping past the recommended 4S power the hull will start showing signs of abuse due to the increased performance and speed that undoubtedly is reason you want to do this in the first place.

Now to the batteries. Your batteries are well matched but the discharge ratings are not exactly the same. I don't know if in this case this is a real problem however your stock motor should never need the higher discharge rate of the higher rated 3S batteries.

Let us know how this goes. I tried 6S on my Genesis but do not choose to do it on a regular basis. But it is impressive.

Dave

**Diesel6401** · 04-20-2012, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by 1945dave

CatMan, I am not sure the weak link in your setup is the motor. I think the stock motor can handle safely the 5S powerand no doubt the ESC can handle 5S power, but I do want to comment on the batteries in a moment. But first are you running the stock hardware and the stock square drive .150 flex shaft?? If so you should consider upgrading to the 3/16th (.187) one piece shaft. Also you need to understand this beautiful boat is built very light. Jumping past the recommended 4S power the hull will start showing signs of abuse due to the increased performance and speed that undoubtedly is reason you want to do this in the first place.

Now to the batteries. Your batteries are well matched but the discharge ratings are not exactly the same. I don't know if in this case this is a real problem however your stock motor should never need the higher discharge rate of the higher rated 3S batteries.

Let us know how this goes. I tried 6S on my Genesis but do not choose to do it on a regular basis. But it is impressive.

Dave

I disagree. Higher the discharge the BETTER! You want the batteries to be able to produce as many amps as possible. You can destory a setup by using too less of a "C" rating and/or batteries with less amp potential then the motor demand, but you can never destroy a setup by using the highest c rating possible. The more amps the batteries can produce the better!

To the OP I wouldn't suggest running the different 2s and 3s cells. The battery that produces the least amount amps is going to have to work harder and potentially fail. A major issue also is the stock fsd motor is very inefficient and also is a 2 pole so at higher rpms (5s) the amp spike will be higher. The Genesis hull can also handle a good amount of speed in the straights, easily can be rolled in the turns though. They're are many people running that hull at insane speeds. Do a search for Genesis or Daytona (fightercat verison of the same hull) for setup tips. Getting rid of the stock square drive is a good place to start. Also swapping out the then stock rudder control rod with something like a 4-40 rod helps also especially with the higher speeds. ... have fun

**CatMan** · 04-20-2012, 01:10 PM

Hi Dave
Thanks for the info. I remembered reading to get same mah on batteries but wasn't sure if different c rating mattered or not. and now that I've ran it on 4S and seen the speeds, I think 4S will be plenty for me.
and i have read about the stock shaft troubles with more powerful motors So I should have been more concerned about that than about the motor. thanks for bringing that to my attention.
My 1st upgrade will be to get 1 piece 3/16th flex shaft. I Have been helped by properchopper on here as to what to get for that. and I can't imagine what a 6S run would look like? what prop are you using on your genesis? I have 2 metal props one is a 38mm 1.4p balanced and sharpened ( on boat now). the other is a octura x442 (not balanced or sharpened) just received from OSE. haven't used x442 yet.
I am looking to get longer run times,
my two 2S 4000mah in series is getting me 5 to 6 minute runs. I have been looking at going to 4S parallel batteries or just getting bigger mah 2S batteries. what do you normally use for battery power?
for now I'm just playing with it and learning, until something breaks ( then I will learn even faster, to fix it). I will get it out today and try it & let you know.

**1945dave** · 04-20-2012, 01:30 PM

Diesel, if you read my post again you will see I was cautions about the unbalanced C ratings. I am in full agreement higher C ratings are better and also concur that an undersized discharge capacity can is risky and in particular two sets of batteries connected in series. However, the stock motor in question is rated at C20 rate or better. Since the lowest discharge battery in this thread is at least 30C I still do not think this is a concern. Yet your point if very well taken. I would rather perfect specification matching.

**CatMan** · 04-20-2012, 01:34 PM

ok now I have diesels input and have decided to wait on 5S run. as I am too new to be that brave before i know what i'm doing!. I have seen many of those insane speed runs on youtube, and am not interested in that.
but trying to make genesis stronger and ready for future changes, if I ever figure out what motor to get. ( or what I'm doing). So far I have replaced the plastic prop. and on 2nd ESC already.
(1st one was bad, hobbywing 120A) My next upgrade will be the OSE strut/rudder ( Product ID: ose-80085 Catamaran Strut and Rudder System) I think? I keep wondering if I should offset the rudder ( from what I've read with other cat's porpoising) but so far it doesn't seem that the genesis has that problem, so I guess an inline rudder is ok? just being patient while I try to learn what I'm doing.
Thanks Diesel

**1945dave** · 04-20-2012, 01:56 PM

CatMan, you are doing things right and going slow and asking questions is the smart thing to do. There are several youtube video's of Genesis cats running on everything up to 8S which if I remember right resulted in a speed of 85 mph. Impressive and flashy for sure but you have now changed from fun to down right scary.

Regarding my props. I posted in another thread that while everyone and the advertisments by Hobby King state the stock plastic prop is 40 mm the one included in my kit was 38 mm (tip to tip measurement). Because I have been involved with Notro competition for over 35 years I have the luxury of having many props in my collection. My favorite prop is the X440. I have run the X442 and I don't know that there is any reason to not consider that choice perhaps the best prop but I like the temp of all components when running easily with the very slightly smaller X440 prop. I will however say there is almost no tendency to cavitate with the X442 while the X440 will cavitate more easily from a dead stop until up on plane.
Regarding batteries. I always use two batteries for weight balance. I have several sets of 5,000 MA 2S bateries that I run in series. I also have two sets of 4,000 MA 4S batteries that I run in parallel. These give me the longest run times of almost 9 minutes. They may really run longer but I stay on the side caution.

In my case the weak link to address is I am still getting too much water in the bilge. I can write a book on what I have tried and have never experienced this issue to the degree I am experiencing this now. I have asked in other threads about other Genesis owners what have they experienced and ihow did they address the issue. I have not tested my newest attempt but I just recently made a heat shrink shaft log seal at ehe motor end. I will see this weekend how that works out.

One last comment on the flex shaft. I have seen first hand several nice electrics ruined because of a broken flex shaft ripping out the stuffing box and flooding the electrics. Even saw one that sunk becuase his floatation was not sufficient. LIP0 batteries and water are not good friends. Let me know how much water you get inside your Genesis on a typical 5 minute run.

Dave

**Diesel6401** · 04-20-2012, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by CatMan

ok now I have diesels input and have decided to wait on 5S run. as I am too new to be that brave before i know what i'm doing!. I have seen many of those insane speed runs on youtube, and am not interested in that.
but trying to make genesis stronger and ready for future changes, if I ever figure out what motor to get. ( or what I'm doing). So far I have replaced the plastic prop. and on 2nd ESC already.
(1st one was bad, hobbywing 120A) My next upgrade will be the OSE strut/rudder ( Product ID: ose-80085 Catamaran Strut and Rudder System) I think? I keep wondering if I should offset the rudder ( from what I've read with other cat's porpoising) but so far it doesn't seem that the genesis has that problem, so I guess an inline rudder is ok? just being patient while I try to learn what I'm doing.
Thanks Diesel

Inline rudder on the genesis is perfectly fine for sport boating. Instead of buying a new complete strut you can mod yours to 3/16. That's what I do to all my boats that come with 4mm struts. Remove the strut, remove the stock 4mm bushings (2 total I think), drill the end of the strut (close to prop) with 1/4" drill bit only deep enough so the bushing is flush and insert a new 3/16 aeromarine bushing. Steve may sell them here, if not aermarine sells them direct. $5 for 2 I think. You'll only need 1.

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**Diesel6401** · 04-20-2012, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by 1945dave

Diesel, if you read my post again you will see I was cautions about the unbalanced C ratings. I am in full agreement higher C ratings are better and also concur that an undersized discharge capacity can is risky and in particular two sets of batteries connected in series. However, the stock motor in question is rated at C20 rate or better. Since the lowest discharge battery in this thread is at least 30C I still do not think this is a concern. Yet your point if very well taken. I would rather perfect specification matching.

HK knowledge is typically terrible. You can't really rate a motor at a specfic "C" rating.

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**1945dave** · 04-20-2012, 02:14 PM

My last reply as I have to run. But regarding offset rudders. 30 years ago I wrote an article in Flying Models that about offset rudders. The correct answer on this is that today nobody either full scale or in radio control models is at the top competition wise with inline rudders. It is not the position of the rudder but that the rudder should not be inline with the prop thrust. Does offseting the rudder increase speed. While I see all kinds of blog post stating that this makes a huge increase of speed I do not think it is that simple. all things equal there may be a small increase in speed, not a large increase. However, if you take advantage of the ability to shorten rudder length by moving the rudder out of the propeller thrust this will increase performance. Porposing is not in my opinion increased by rudder placement, at least not on the Genesis. Porposing is almost always related to forward and aft CG balance, as well as thrust angles of the strut. Raising the strut until cavitaion becomes an issue helps eliminate this propblem as well as moving the heavy items like batteries forward enough to settle the boat down. If you move the CG too forward the boat will hunt or hook and definately not perform to its best ability.

Dave

**CatMan** · 04-20-2012, 02:29 PM

As far as getting water in... I had read about other people having that problem on the HK site. but figured that they weren't greasing the flexshaft? I greased mine before i ran it. It stays bone dry for several runs,
then I start to get water in it, so I just grease the shaft again. But with 4 2S packs, I get 2, 5 to 6 minute runs. then home to start the long charging process, as my charger takes over 2 hours to charge
two 2S batteries. So before I get anything else, I need a better charger. then I can get more than 2 - 5min runs a day in! just glad I live on a lake, so at least it's a short drive. I remember reading about some people
using a small piece of tubing on flex shaft where it come out of stuffing tube to help keep water out, but wasn't sure which end they were talking about?
not sure if this helps, but that's all i know so far. as for 4S parallel, does the weight of two 4S batts. affect the floatability or performance of the Genesis? would the higher mah 4S be too heavy?
have been wondering about that. but have other things to get before I get to that decision. Thanks for the inline rudder info. My only reason to do it was from what I've read about porpoising,
but mine didn't seem to have that problem. so inline it is!

**SirBudman32** · 04-20-2012, 02:37 PM

As for the weight of the batteries, it may even help it some. And for the piece of fuel tubing on the stuffing tube, it goes up by the motor end. and it helps

**CatMan** · 04-20-2012, 02:49 PM

Thanks, Im glad the weight issue, isn't an issue. ( does that make sense?)
Do you put the tubing on the flexshaft right next to stuffing tube, or do you put tubing on stuffing tube next to flexshaft?
the more i type, the more i get confused, but it will slowly sink in and make sense ( i hope )

**SirBudman32** · 04-20-2012, 02:55 PM

Put it on the stuffing tube and leave a little hang off the end and when you put the flex in it will seal around it.

**CatMan** · 04-20-2012, 04:18 PM

great, thanks I will do that today, I now have some extra tubing since I just replaced all mine with the large tubing.

Stock Genesis Motor on 5S ?

Stock Genesis Motor on 5S ?

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