NEU vs Lehner in a 6s SAW Outrigger (Mr. Krabs)

[xzessIII]

Hi there,

I'm new to this forum, so I hope this is the right thread for this post.

I'm currently starting my new project, an Outrigger from Hydro&Marine with 6s LiPo for
Straight Away Racing. I'm not sure if it's available in the U.S., so here are some facts:

The dimensions are 37.4 in x 20,7 in. It's build in glass-fibre - carbon-fibre - aramid
and it won the last years world championship in hydro II/III class.

krab2.jpg

krab1.jpg

The german speed record is set to 155 km/h (96,31 mp/h) with a Lehner LMT 1950/?
(he doesn't want to tell which one ^^) and I want to break the 100 mp/h ;-)

I have some experience with Lehner brushless-motors and build a dumas hawk 3.5 with a
Plettenberg brushed 355/30/4 with 22 cells, which ran nearly 130 km/h few years ago (2001) but I've
never used a Neu in one of my boats.
Does anyone of you ever compared a Neu to a Lehner and do you know if they are competitive
in relation to them? Unfortunately there are only few Neu's on races in Europe, so it would be kind
to get some opinions from across the atlantic...

Racing Regards from Hamburg, Germany!

Stefan

PS: Sorry for my English, but I'm far away of being a native speaker;-)

[Ub Hauled]

Stefan, willkommen!
We do have the Krab here, not very popular though.
We use Lehners and NEU motors and I have to say that NEU motors are very popular BUT they sometimes don't run well with the Schulze ESCs.
I have a few friends that had many troubles with this combo. NEU motors have more torque due to the 4 poles vs. 2 poles in Lehners. NEU motors
have high efficiency as well as Lehners.
One downside to NEU motors (in my opinion) is that they have less varieties of winds, Lehners offer a bigger variety... but then again the extra torque kinda closes the gap again.

There are some guys in Germany that are breaking speed records with NEU motors, how involved are you with R/C, some of the fastest guys around are in Germany.

[RaceMechaniX]

Hello Stefan and welcome,

I am one of the friends Jan is more than likely referring to which has tested both combos and with good and bad experiences. The Neu motors in terms of performance are very close to the Lehners. Their winds are a bit restrictive, but for 6S that have some good combos from mild to wild. The German SAW record was more than likley set with a very low wind around 4-5-6 depeding on the cells used.

For a 6S SAW rigger with Neu motors you'll be looking for a wind with a kV between 1900 and 2500 kV. Options include:

1515 1y 2200kV
1518 1y 1900kV
1521 1.5D 1900kV
1524 1D 2550kV
1527 1D 2300kV

The longer can motors will have more torque to pull larger props, but also pull more current. I would stongly recommend using a Castle Hydra ICE 240 with the Neu motors or the older Schulze 40.160 esc with the caps hanging off the case. The current Schulze models do not work well with the Neu motors due to their low inductance. You could also try the Turnigy T180 which has worked for short periods on 6S in SAW boats. Extra caps help a lot on that model.

If you need help ordering a Neu motor and getting it shipped overseas just let us know.

Regards,

Tyler

[Steven Vaccaro]

What about a 1527 .5y ?

[RaceMechaniX]

Yeah the 1527 0.5Y is a 2500kV motor and is pretty hot on 6S. I watched one rigger in Flint run this combo and overheating of the controller was an issue as was finding a prop that would not blow the tail end out. It is a very high current motor.

Another option is the 14 series from Neu which would directly compete with the Lehner 19 series. Both motors are 36mm, but Neu does not make any larger than 38mm rotor length. So a Neu 1415 and Lehner 1940 are very close, but there is no Neu equal for the Lehenr 1950.

TG



TG

[Ub Hauled]

....
I am one of the friends Jan is more than likely referring to which has tested both combos and with good and bad experiences. ....

yup!

[xzessIII]

Thanks for the warm welcome and all your suggestions!

The 1527 .5y sounds like a quite hot suggestion, I'm not sure if it can handle a 6s setup. Is there any data-sheet for it?
The old Schulze 40.160 esc sounds great, but it will be hard to get one...

Regards,

Stefan

[Fluid]

You will probably be better off with a Neu motor having a Kv closer to 2200. On 6S that will still produce a lot of rpm. Note that when switching between Neu and Lehner motors you will not choose the same Kv for both brands. Typically you will want a Neu motor with a ~15% higher Kv than a Lehner motor for similar performance. The power bands of the two motors are quite a bit different, as is the Kv determination.

What speed are you hoping to attain? That will help to determine the Kv and prop you will need. Simply buying the hottest motor and screwing on a big prop is not always the best way to go about setting a SAW record.


.

[xzessIII]

Hi Fluid,

I intend to break the 100mp/h ^^

Regards

[RaceMechaniX]

Stefan,

If a 1950 set the current record, a 1515, 1518 or 1521 Neu are going to probably be the best equivalents for power and weight. IMO, the 1527 is a little too beefy for a Q SAW boat unless you are gonig for a monster power system. A lot of this will have to do with prop selection and tweaking.

The older Schulzes are getting hard to find, but do work well. I believe Chris Harris ran this combo (Neu + older Schulze) for his 6S and 8S records.

Tyler

[m4a1usr]

I dont know how the heck you could stuff 6S in one of these guy's. It was tough putting 4S in mine. I had to actually modify the rear sponson boom going thru the hull to make my 45C 5000 packs get in far enough. And there was no way my 40.160 could get in there as well. Even with a Hydra 240LV its tight. But I do know of one build using 5S and a 4082 in 2200kv. Would love to see how the OP is going to lay things out. I'm definately not too old or stubborn to learn from others!


John

[Make-a-Wake]

I vote 1527 1D for 6s with a swordy 200a esc, it can fit in the boat much better than a T180.

[xzessIII]

Hi John,

the most guys in Germany are going the Krabs on 6s, here's an example of how it looks like with 6s:

111.jpg

Regards,

Stefan

[RaceMechaniX]

Stefan,

Realizing the very tight space in that rigger I would look no larger than the 1515 motors. It looks as though the 36mm diameter motors are already a tight squeeze, so the 1415 1Y 2200kV might be the best compromise of power and compactness.

It also look like it will be very difficult to fit a 40.160 in there. You might consider the MGM controllers too.

Tyler

[m4a1usr]

Thanks for the pic Stephan. Thats about the only location I had considered myself in my build. But I am using a longer can. Mine is running a Neu 1521 with room to move up to a 1527. What I had to do was cut the inside boom section and create a custom aluminum part to maintain structural integrity of the tubing. 6S could be very usefull in the appropriate prop sizes for this hull.

Looks like that flex needs some support! That bad boy is twisted.

John