2 Pole Motor Timing

[SweetAccord]

What should be the timing on a 2040 or 2445 two pole motor? Some have said add some as it's needed, while others say 0º. On my ESC I can do 0º or the next one up which is 3.75º.

I have run with 0º timing and I'm hitting these temps:

ESC: 99º
Batt: 100º
Motor: 130º

Is timing needed or it just going to add more heat? All that my knowledge says leave it at 0º.

[Fluid]

What motor? What wind, D or Y? Most 2-pole motors will run best between ~10 and 15 degrees of advance but it depends on the motor construction and the amp draw. The higher the amp draw, the higher the timing advance needed. Your motor may be hot due to too little timing advance since the efficiency is poor at zero advance.

Or, you can listen to someone who says different. Your choice.


.

[Punisher 67]

Zero timing works great with absolutly no load and even then you would need a bit , like Fluid said the more load the more timing you will need but other variables come into play such as , pole count , wind , and wind configuration Y or D . A fellow boater was setting up his DF29 with a Feigao 8T and settled on about 15* degree's

[SweetZ28]

I thought when you set your timing to 0 you gain more tork and less RPM .... and more timing you gain more RPM'S less tork... That's what i found when testing in RC cars with brushless motors when adding timing the RPM'S increase you can see this with a motor RPM tester.

[SweetAccord]

I should be more specific. I don't know the winding as the specs don't state. Here are some of the motor specs:


No Name: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=15186
Motor Size: 2445
Diameter: 24mm
RPM/V: 3860kv
Max Load: 32A
Max volts: 11.1v 2s~3s
Max Watts: 350w
Resistance: 0.0245
Timing: ?

No name: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=15189
Motor Size: 2848 RPM/V: 3900kv
Max Load: 41A
Max volts: 12v 2~3s
Max Watts: 500w
Resistance: 0.0155
Timing: ?

Brand: Tacon
Motor Size: 2040 (130L)
Watt: 200
Speed: 4850kv
No Load Curr: 1.8A
Max Load: 25A
Timing: ?

Brand: Tacon
Motor Size: 2040 (130L)
Watt: 220
No-Load Current: 0.9A
Load Current: 16A
No-Load RPM: 5.5W
Load RPM: 4.1W
Timing: ?

Brand: Turnigy
Motor Size: 2445 (370L)
Speed: 2900kv
Voltage Range: 6~12v
No Load Curr: .5A
Max Load: 34A
Timing: ?


Here are my timing options on each: Timing (0.00/3.75/7.50/11.25/15.00/18.75/22.50/26.25)

Thank you all! You are all awesome for helping me!

[SweetAccord]

So what timing would be on each of the above?

[Fluid]

Am I missing something, I don't see the pole number anywhere. But for all of them, I'd start with 11.25 degrees and see how that works, then try 15.


Z28 - no, the timing needs to be at the "best" position to get maximum efficiency, it will vary depending on speed and amp draw. Too low and you loose efficiency and power. Advance is needed because it takes time for the coils in the motor to develop their magnetic field. That field has to be full when the magnet comes around so it will pull the magnet strongly. If the field is not full when the magnet is in position, power is lost. Too high and you get excess heat. Similar - in a way - to spark advance in an IC engine.


.

[SweetZ28]

Am I missing something, I don't see the pole number anywhere. But for all of them, I'd start with 11.25 degrees and see how that works, then try 15.


Z28 - no, the timing needs to be at the "best" position to get maximum efficiency, it will vary depending on speed and amp draw. Too low and you loose efficiency and power. Advance is needed because it takes time for the coils in the motor to develop their magnetic field. That field has to be full when the magnet comes around so it will pull the magnet strongly. If the field is not full when the magnet is in position, power is lost. Too high and you get excess heat. Similar - in a way - to spark advance in an IC engine.


.

I don't think so i tested RPMs on motors the less timing the lower the RPMs and the more timing gave more RPM's So if you have a boat like mine with a 3300KV motor running on 3s and you need less RPM 0 timing works best than adding timing wich increases motor RPM

+ Timing = more RPM more heat more AMP draw
- Timing less RPM cooler less AMP draw

That's how it works.. same with brushed motors.

[SweetAccord]

I found this formula:

Kv x Volts (nominal you are using) x Pole count / 20
Example: For a 500 motor that is 8 pole 1760kv running on 5s so:
1760 x 18.5 = 32560 x 8 = 260480 / 20 = 13,024 so rounded down, set PWM at 12k & it has performed flawlessly.

So Punisher, can you use this formula and confirm that DF29 setup and see if you get 15º also or a value close to that?

Jay these are two pole, I can tell by the turns, and also there is no magnetic field in them.

[martin]

According to Etti 2 pole motors should use 2 degrees, Not sure if their airing on the side of caution with their numbers though. As they also say up to 30 degrees for increasing the power output. In my 450 size outrunner motors im now useing 30 degrees & 16k pwm & their much faster than when i used 7 degrees & 8k pwm. Thanks Martin.

[SweetZ28]

According to Etti 2 pole motors should use 2 degrees, Not sure if their airing on the side of caution with their numbers though. As they also say up to 30 degrees for increasing the power output. In my 450 size outrunner motors im now useing 30 degrees & 16k pwm & their much faster than when i used 7 degrees & 8k pwm. Thanks Martin.

Yes they will get faster because advanced timing gives you more RPMs but if you use a watt meter you will also notice more amp draw when timing is advanced.

[martin]

Their is certainly a lot more amp draw that i know by increase in speeds & how much run times have been cut, But i was fully prepared to accept that. Thanks Martin.

[Punisher 67]

I found this formula:

Kv x Volts (nominal you are using) x Pole count / 20
Example: For a 500 motor that is 8 pole 1760kv running on 5s so:
1760 x 18.5 = 32560 x 8 = 260480 / 20 = 13,024 so rounded down, set PWM at 12k & it has performed flawlessly.

So Punisher, can you use this formula and confirm that DF29 setup and see if you get 15º also or a value close to that?

Jay these are two pole, I can tell by the turns, and also there is no magnetic field in them.

Sorry I cannot your formula seems incomplete and has no input for amps used . I have emailed Bob Boucher from Astro flight to see if he can furnish me with the proper formula .

I have to eat crow a bit here Kens timing on his Feigao 540 was at 7* and not 15* as I mentioned earlier . 15 was tried with no noticable differance in performance but a noticable increase in heat .

Two pole motors do have a magnetic field it just seems that they do not because of the internal design . or were you refering to cogging as some 4 pole and higher pole motors have

[ksm2001]

Sorry I cannot your formula seems incomplete and has no input for amps used . I have emailed Bob Boucher from Astro flight to see if he can furnish me with the proper formula .

I have to eat crow a bit here Kens timing on his Feigao 540 was at 7* and not 15* as I mentioned earlier . 15 was tried with no noticable differance in performance but a noticable increase in heat .

Two pole motors do have a magnetic field it just seems that they do not because of the internal design . or were you refering to cogging as some 4 pole and higher pole motors have

LOL you beat me to it Peter. Yes just talked to Peter on the phone and I mentioned my Df29 running a Feigao 540 8xl 540 with a Highmodel 200amp 4-8s. I tried 1,7 and 15 degrees timing and recorded each run with the eagle tree for amps,rpm,temps and gps and found the 7 degree timing to be the best of all three.

Ken

[SweetAccord]

Sorry I cannot your formula seems incomplete and has no input for amps used . I have emailed Bob Boucher from Astro flight to see if he can furnish me with the proper formula .

I have to eat crow a bit here Kens timing on his Feigao 540 was at 7* and not 15* as I mentioned earlier . 15 was tried with no noticable differance in performance but a noticable increase in heat .

Two pole motors do have a magnetic field it just seems that they do not because of the internal design . or were you refering to cogging as some 4 pole and higher pole motors have

Yes, I was referring to the cogging as if you mark the shaft with a dot, it turns only to the North and South on every turn every time.