blowing caps 180esc

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  • graill
    Retired
    • Oct 2008
    • 389

    #31
    Originally posted by m4a1usr
    Quote:
    To understand why low speed throttle is bad, you need to know a little about how ESCs work.

    In general, with a constant load a motor's RPM changes as a result of the average voltage it sees. Since a battery is a (relatively) fixed voltage, we need some way to vary voltage seen by the motor. A microcontroller is a digital device - it can generate only "on" and "off" conditions. How does one take a fixed input (battery) and an on/off control and make an analog (variable) output?

    The answer is by going on and off very quickly, varying the relative amount of on and off pulses. The longer you are "on" and the shorter "off", the more average voltage the motor sees. This is called "Pulse Width Modulation" or PWM. The on-time is called "duty cycle" and is repeated at a certain rate (times per second) called "frequency." The duty cycle is controlled by the transmitter, the frequency is controlled by the speed control.

    In a brushed control, this goes directly into the two motor leads, with the coils and mass of the motor acting to average out the pulses into a more-or-less linear value.

    In a brushless control, the same thing is going on, with an added twist. Not only are the pulses varying the voltage, but the voltage must be moved between the 3 different wires in order to simulate the plates of the commutator (comm) on the armature.

    Now, why is low speed bad? The on/off switching is done with a device called a FET. A FET is a low-resistance switch when fully turned on. When it's not fully turned on, it has a resistance which varies depending on exactly how turned-on it is. This is called the "linear mode." When in linear mode, a FET is like a big resistor - you know, those things inside your slot car handle that get HOT, or like the ceramic thing in your old mechanical speed control. The problem is, FETs don't like to be in linear mode - as they warm up, they get more and more resistive. But the motor at low RPM is less and less resistive, meaning it will draw more current.

    What you have is a situation that can quickly degenerate into what we call "Thermal Runaway" - the heating of something causes it to heat itself even more.

    So why don't ESC designers not run FETs in linear mode? Well, we try real hard not to, but it's a matter of physics - you can't completely eliminate it. If we make the linear mode time very short, it adds bigger capacitors to the board to provide the necessary energy, and people complain about size. They also complain about glitching their radios, as the speed at which the FETs are switched then generates radio frequencies. If we spend more time in linear mode, we can eliminate the glitching in the radio - but then we run into potential heat problems. Engineering always is a balance of competing problems and solutions.

    What happens at low throttle is that the FET goes into the linear mode for a larger percentage of the on-time. That means the FET spends more time heating than it should - and hot FETs have more resistance, meaning next time they are in linear mode, they will heat up even hotter. At the same time, the motor is at lower RPM and therefore pulling more amps (a stalled motor will draw the maximum current).

    You can get a lower RPM (ie, a lower average voltage) at maximum duty cycle only by lowering the input voltage. The speed control will run better with a lower input voltage even though it may be passing more amps simply because there will be less time for the FETs to be in linear mode. It is not an exaggeration to say that the FET may have 10X or more resistance when in linear mode. Heat generated is directly related to resistance.


    Andy Kunz

    John

    Andy have an email? Some of the things he explains in the quote supplied by John didnt makes sense regarding FET operation states, maybe it was the wording?

    Comment

    • sundog
      Platinum Card Member
      • Feb 2009
      • 878

      #32
      Originally posted by DISAR
      I follow these rules

      1-2s below the esc max volts
      full throttle as much as possible
      smooth stopping as musch as possible

      Excellent rules to follow to keep caps from overheating
      Legend 36 sailboat, KMB Powerjet Ed Hardy Viper, ABC jet pwrd BBY Oval Master, ABC Hobby Jetski, NQD Tear Into's, HK Discovery 500, MickieBeez pwrd Jet Rigger!, Davette/Gravtix jet sprint, KMB Powerjet Pursuit, NQD pwrd Jet Catamaran!,Steam pwrd African Queen, Sidewinder airboat, Graupner Eco Power

      Comment

      • BakedMopar
        No Mo Slipah
        • Sep 2009
        • 1679

        #33
        If this generator theory is true then why our land based motors not gernading the caps. The motors are constantly being driven through the wheels after gettin off the throttle until it comes to a dead stop.
        If all of your wishes are granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed!

        Comment

        • m4a1usr
          Fast Electric Addict
          • Nov 2009
          • 2038

          #34
          Originally posted by graill
          Andy have an email? Some of the things he explains in the quote supplied by John didnt makes sense regarding FET operation states, maybe it was the wording?
          Andy Kunz is a member here on OSE so you could contact him if you believe something is not quite worded right but his basic theory is sound. That is the way FET's behave. Here is another way to look at the explanation on partial throttle.


          John
          Change is the one Constant

          Comment

          • ray schrauwen
            Fast Electric Addict!
            • Apr 2007
            • 9471

            #35
            Originally posted by BakedMopar
            If this generator theory is true then why our land based motors not gernading the caps. The motors are constantly being driven through the wheels after gettin off the throttle until it comes to a dead stop.
            The gear ratios I think help reduce the problem and the weight of a car is alot easier to slow i think than most boats.
            Nortavlag Bulc

            Comment

            • BakedMopar
              No Mo Slipah
              • Sep 2009
              • 1679

              #36
              Originally posted by ray schrauwen
              The gear ratios I think help reduce the problem and the weight of a car is alot easier to slow i think than most boats.
              I still don't buy it. Even with gear ratios your rolling for a lot longer han a boat in water. Also the gear ratios would spin the motor a lot faster than a 1:1 direct drive boat. Were not comparing "on" power consumption. The prop isn't spinning much longer after getting off the throttle. Even airplanes have props turning without power.
              If all of your wishes are granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed!

              Comment

              • ray schrauwen
                Fast Electric Addict!
                • Apr 2007
                • 9471

                #37
                Well, I said I "think" those were some reasons. You don't have to buy it. I understand Andy's explanation and I agree with it.
                Nortavlag Bulc

                Comment

                • BakedMopar
                  No Mo Slipah
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 1679

                  #38
                  Don't take it the wrong way. I'm just trying to get a grasp on this " generator" concept. Did I miss Andys article?
                  If all of your wishes are granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed!

                  Comment

                  • m4a1usr
                    Fast Electric Addict
                    • Nov 2009
                    • 2038

                    #39
                    Originally posted by BakedMopar
                    Don't take it the wrong way. I'm just trying to get a grasp on this " generator" concept. Did I miss Andys article?
                    The posted "Andy" article is only a reference to partial throttle operation as it relates to FET efficiency. Has nothing to do with some form of "windmill"/ Generator effect on an ESC component.

                    And I dont buy the logic of the generator effect working either. There are several reasons why it cannot work.

                    1. The Caps are on the battery side. (thats whats being discussed as a form of greater potential being generated and then stored or certainly effected) The esc will never see more voltage then what is stored in the batteries. Thats a given. Why? There is no return path "thru" the ESC to add more charge. You cant think of the ESC as a gate or a path way. Its not that simple. You start with a given amount of voltage from the batteries. That exact same amount of voltage is not available on the output phases to the motor. The ESC has losses. So you will always have a greater potential on the battery side. Thats Ohms law.

                    2. If you are off the throttle and "coasting" props will not necessarily free spin. Maybe with 2 pole motors with little motor iron/rotor magnetic attraction but I doubt any of the 4/6/8 pole motors that do have strong motor iron/rotor attraction will want to free spin and even if they do, because of the magnetic resistance from internal component attraction, the RPM’s will ALWAYS be lower then the RPM’s it took to get to that velocity before the “coasting” would begin. In other words,…..if the motor could feed back voltage thru the ESC it would be a lower, not higher, value. So again. You could not “charge” the caps to a level higher then what the batteries would. So the theory doesn’t work. Its an interesting concept but the operation and constraints of the components, plus the physics surrounding energy generation don’t make sense. I don’t need myth busters for this one.

                    John
                    Change is the one Constant

                    Comment

                    • JackBlack26
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2007
                      • 905

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Insaniac
                      You missed the point...again...there is not enough prop "torque" when you slow down to rotate the motor/drive shaft against the resistance of the magnets in most brushless motors. The only exception that I own is the Ammo 36-50-2300 which spins freely...
                      Please explain how I missed the point? In the post you quoted I was explaining that a motor and a generator are the same in design. The difference is which end they are powered from. I never said, or agreed, that was the reason for caps blowing!WTH does that have to do with you and the motors you own? I understand your point that other than some cheap 2 pole motors most quality 4 pole motors, and higher, wont spin the prop just from forward momentum due to magnet strength. Stating that "I missed the point" when I never disagreed with you is a bit off!

                      Come to think of it, I don't even see why this topic is an issue in Rc boats unless these ESCs don't have reverse circuitry protection. I raced 1/8 scale electric buggies and truggies for over a year running Neu and Castle motors and never had an issue blowing caps when off throttle and the cars were still in motion, coasting with the motor still spinning.

                      Comment

                      • graill
                        Retired
                        • Oct 2008
                        • 389

                        #41
                        Originally posted by m4a1usr
                        Andy Kunz is a member here on OSE so you could contact him if you believe something is not quite worded right but his basic theory is sound. That is the way FET's behave. Here is another way to look at the explanation on partial throttle.


                        John
                        Thanks John i will pm him tomorrow. Talked with a couple friends of mine at raytheon and they cleared it up, Andy omitted some stuff to simplify it and was why i asked. They also told me to ask about a dirty little secret folks that build with the mosfets know about but do not advertise, i will ask Andy about it.

                        Comment

                        • bigwaveohs
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2009
                          • 535

                          #42
                          Originally posted by JackBlack26
                          Please explain how I missed the point? In the post you quoted I was explaining that a motor and a generator are the same in design. The difference is which end they are powered from. I never said, or agreed, that was the reason for caps blowing!WTH does that have to do with you and the motors you own? I understand your point that other than some cheap 2 pole motors most quality 4 pole motors, and higher, wont spin the prop just from forward momentum due to magnet strength. Stating that "I missed the point" when I never disagreed with you is a bit off!

                          Come to think of it, I don't even see why this topic is an issue in Rc boats unless these ESCs don't have reverse circuitry protection. I raced 1/8 scale electric buggies and truggies for over a year running Neu and Castle motors and never had an issue blowing caps when off throttle and the cars were still in motion, coasting with the motor still spinning.
                          A theory put forward in this thread is that when the throttle is quickly chopped to zero, the water would spin the prop in reverse creating a generator effect which caused the resulting (over?) voltage to blow the capacitors. Insaniac simply stated that he didn't agree that this was the cause because most motors have magnets that are strong enough to prevent the motor shaft/prop from spinning simply due to the water flow as the boat slows down.

                          BTW, I no longer provide "advice" on this forum...guess why...
                          I let the dogs out...

                          Comment

                          • ScarabChris
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2010
                            • 752

                            #43
                            I don't know....I guess I'm old school and these ESC's are new technology. I was following the common sense that if the motor is turning less RPM's then its using less power thus putting less load on the ESC. So if I run my boat at low speed the batteries should last longer and the ESC stay cooler.

                            But from what I am reading here is seems that if I run the boat at full throttle the batteries will last longer the the ESC's will stay cooler then if I just tool around at low or half throttle.

                            Again thats just my old school theory.

                            I went ahead and ordered some cap banks for my 54" Fountain as they were getting super hot....at full throttle.

                            Comment

                            • Insaniac
                              Senior Member
                              • Jul 2010
                              • 423

                              #44
                              Correct, for boats running at full throttle is easier on the ESC...
                              Support US hobby suppliers

                              Comment

                              • ScarabChris
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2010
                                • 752

                                #45
                                So am I going to destroy my ESC's running at slower speeds? Because I like to run it next to my real boat but I rarely run the real boat at 60 MPH. I like to run circles around the real boat as we are cruising in the Intracoastal or bay. Its mostly idle speed but some areas are 30 MPH. Even still, way slower than the maximum speed of the RC boat which is 60 MPH.

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