Help ESC Fire

[Reshurected Z]

I am not an electronics Guru, I need some insight as to why I almost ended up burning and sinking a R/C boat!
I have an old Spartan, I bought it unfinished 2yrs. ago and after fixing its issues, all has been good until last night.
Idled 5ft away from the dock then lost power let off and went 1/2 throttle boat launched then died again and then My worst R/C experience happen with the boat catching fire and smoking bad 10ft from the dock? again this has about 2yrs. old build and about 30-40 sets of packs ran through it, I have ran 10-15 sets of packs just in the last couple months with No issues and this happened COLD right off the dock?
Please let me know if you have any idea/advice as to why I ended up with an fire.
Attached is some pictures of the chassis remains.

Build Info.:
Traxxas Spartan V1
Stock Rx
Stock Prop.
3/16 prop shaft
Seaking 180amp with added Capacitor bank
OLD castle 1580KV-45,000 max RPM
qty.2 Lectron Pro 7600mAh 75C 11.1V (6 Cell setup)
2075 Traxxas steering servo

Thanks,
Adam

IMG_9998.jpgIMG_9999.jpgIMG_0001.jpg

[jkflow]

Sorry, I'm usually pretty good at this stuff, but there is nothing left to work with.
Must have been some latent defect from prior use, moisture getting through cracks or similar. Very hard to tell.
The ESC to motor wires look like they de-soldered themselves from the ESC plugs. That would only happen with a serious short. The fire alone wouldn't do that. Could have been a serious defect in the motor.
Might want to open it up and look for signs of carnage.
Based on your description, something must have started to short out on using throttle, BEC voltage collapses as a result (unresponsive) but was able to recover. The 2nd attempt killed it completely and the short circuit caused the fire.
Was, indications are that it was motor related, but very hard to tell.
Nothing you could have done with it being 10ft off the dock.

[Panther6834]

My guess is, the Lectron battery is the cause. As I understand it, Lectron batteries USED to be considered "one of the best". I say "used to be" because there have been more than a few reports of late, in multiple forums, of people having 'problems' worth them. Case in point..........

I was at one of my LHSs yesterday, and while I was there, a guy brought in a Traxxas UDR he had bought only a few days prior. On the day he bought it, the shop cut off the Traxxas connectors, and soldered on XT90s. As for the battery packs he was sold...you guessed it - Lectron.

To make a long story short, while his entire vehicle didn't go up in flames, it could have. Thankfully, he got to the UDR fast enough, and got the batteries out before the one pack responsible caused a loss of everything. That one battery had to be replaced (under warranty, thankfully, which the shop will take care of), as did one of the XT90 connectors on the ESC side.


~ More peace, love, and kindness would make the world a much better place

[Reshurected Z]

Panther, Thank-you for the input!
In this case I don't believe the batteries were the cause, I believe they swelled after the fire Due to them being loaded while the ESC shorted out and burnt up. It was about 2-3mins before I could get out to it to disconnect power. All my 3cell Lectron batteries cells always balance out at very close to 4.25V each, also I have always kept them charged when not in use and are about 3yrs old. Now I did have 6 total of the 3S 7600mAh but the 2 Newest of them started to swell and got discarded via Target practice a few months back, they were just over an year old. On another note I also have an UDR that I run a 8cell setup on, it is stupid fast which I also run Lectron and Maxx Amp batteries on it with no issues.

[Reshurected Z]

"jkflow" you have me concerned about the motor now, it has never overheated or missed a beat since i've owned it. I know its an older motor but what was in it so I went with it. The motor spins free and still feels like little clicks as you spin it by hand? Is there a way to test this? I had planned to test it with another vehicle.

[jkflow]

Your motor might be totally fine if the ESC shorted out underneath the motor wire connections. At a minimum, I would take it apart and oil the front bearing as well as check for other damage.
The motor rotor is held together with a kevlar wrap that holds the core materials with are also fixed in epoxy. The epoxy is permanently damaged once it gets ~ 180-190F, pending manufacturer, and I don't have your motor details.
If this was hot for long enough, your motor is toast for other reasons.

No, this wasn't lipo related, they might have gotten damaged in the process.

A couple statements are disturbing, though. A lipo should never be above 4.2V, definitely not 4.25V. Exceptions are for HV lipos which can go to 4.35V.
Chance f malfunction increases exponentially above 4.2V while you gain nothing in capacity.
Lipos should never be stored fully charged, only at storage level ~3.75V - 3.85V, or you will see swelling etc.

[RaceMechaniX]

I doubt it was the batteries although for future reference those XT connectors are on the small side. I would target the ESC or the motor as the likely cause. Usually the Castle motors are decent quality but if it has been run hard in the past and overheated there is a good chance you have a mild short in the windings. The ESC and motor might work fine with no load, but as soon as load is applied the short becomes more severe and causes excessively high phase currents in the ESC which leads to failure. Was there any moisture in the ESC case by chance? This is the usual culprit for sudden ESC failures. If they get wet from a prior run and are not dry enough it will cause a failure rather quickly.

Also check your motor and battery connections for cold flow solder joints. This is hard to find as shrink tubing will keep the connector and wire from pulling apart and also barely keeps the solder in, but the electrical connection is compromised.

Clean the motor with some alcohol to remove the burnt smoke from it.

[Reshurected Z]

jkflow
Thanks for the heads up on voltage, I know enough to be dangerous.
I have an an older onyx charger with cell balancing and out of the box setup for 3cell batteries they end up finishing charge at 4.2V each. If i see a battery that don't balance or start to swell I discard them. I have R/C trucks, cars, Heli and a boat and normally I get about 3 good years out of batteries before they start to lose capacity or swell. You are correct on storage, the charge does a storage mode and I put them on it about once every couple months when not in use. Call me crazy but I never pay attention to the voltage when I take them off them storage mode. Just a side note I do charge and store my batteries in a sealed container as a precaution hearing peoples horror stories.

Race MechaniX
I am going to clean/test the motor on my stock UDR ESC to look for heat and [possible issues before putting it in the boat. To my knowledge the only time it got hot was years ago when first bought it and the "knock off" HobbyKing SeaWing heated up motor and then burnt off an battery lead. after that I replaced it with the SeaKing 180 V2 and haven't had any issues even when running it on rough days? I now have an OSE Raider 150 on order and off your advice will be upgrading to XT90's like my 8cell setup.



My assumptions after taking things apart and looking at everything either ESC decided to short or possibly had a Capacitor pop and start the issues? The 2 boards of the ESC are completely melted down with them becoming parts of the electronics tray.

Thanks,
Adam

[Panther6834]

After zooming in on the photos, I'm in agreement that my initial assumption might have been a bit premature. I think the batteries might have still played a part ("might have"...not saying they "did"), but the ESC does appear to be the primary culprit. At the same time, something popped into my head as I was looking at the photo while zoomed in. I'm not an electrical engineer, and I don't know if an 'exploding' BEC could cause an ESC to go up in flames...but, if that's a possibility, then it is equally possible that a power surge from the battery could have led to something like this. Again, not an electrical engineer...just theorizing another possibility.

Regarding the motor, Castle does make great motors...for land...but, they are not really designed for, or intended for use in, boats. I have several Castle motors, but I would never consider putting them in a boat. I'm not saying they *can't* be used in boats...just that such is not what they're designed for. In other words, extra caution should be used. Motors for boats tend to be 'sealed' (better protection against water), whereas motors for land/air tend to be 'vented' (better for venting heart). Obviously, not all (for each) are...they just "tend to be". For example, look at the Poseidon motors (one of the few companies producing dedicated land & marine motors) - the marine motors are sealed, and the land motors are vented.


~ More peace, love, and kindness would make the world a much better place

[Reshurected Z]

I'm not sure either what the true cause was, maybe just too many smacks off waves? The motor has been wet before but I always try to blow it out with air and let it dry before next use.
I have had a few Castle motors in the past and always been happy with them, I DID NOT build this boat just ran across it and seen the size of the can and made me think its gotta be fast lol

Again Thanks for the input!

[Panther6834]

just ran across it and seen the size of the can and made me think its gotta be fast lol

Fast isn't just 'good'...it's 'great...until it's not moving at all. [emoji1687]


~ More peace, love, and kindness would make the world a much better place

[jkflow]

I do know enough to be dangerous, EE by trade Based on pictures, though, it's a swag at best. Not dismissing anyones ideas without reasoning.
Batteries are not capable of providing a surge, simply impossible. They are always the most stable in the system. Only possible for them to sag, but never go above rated voltages.
BEC/ESC Fire. Just based on the massive damage, it must have been a full short circuit inside the ESC. I would have to know specific internal design and layout, both are feasible.
What is odd, if it was a full short circuit, I would have expected the battery connector to show signs of damage as well. Might be hidden under the heat shrink. The power came from the battery, and we are talking ~200A+ to get this carnage of motor wires de-soldering.

You know that you can open the motor fairly easily.
You only have an alu spacer and 2 springy washers inside, plus the rotor. Just keep the order of spacer and washers in mind when reassembling, really easy to do.
You can push out the rotor just by pushing down on a table, there is some force to it.
Honestly, I wouldn't trust anything in the loop and risk it. Might be the best motor ever, but is it worth the risk?

[Reshurected Z]

Being this thing all but caught fire is what made me reach out! It had me really concerned I might have missed an common issue that causes this type of event.

I can take better pictures of the carnage if you would like but i agree the Amp load was heavy to cause this much damage.
There was nothing left of any ESC boards or circuit components just melted solder and black crust. I think the RX and steering servo survived I'll know tonight when i test them. Also i will take the motor apart and see if there is any evidence of heat anywhere before I toss it on my stock UDR ESC for testing.
I may be buying an new motor after all, they are all toys but I use the boat just to piss off the neighbors and entertainment for others on the lake. So I liked not having much $ tied up in it haha!

[jkflow]

All the right reasons to own an FE!

No need to post more pictures, that damage is too extensive. There is nothing you have done wrong on this specific run.
Boats do get wet and this was most likely something latent. Cracks in ESC are not uncommon and not always visible. Bad combination of circumstances.

[Reshurected Z]

UPDATE on Spartan Meltdown and also a Question
After getting things torn down completely this was all but a total lose...ESC, Motor, RX, Str. servo, qty.2 7600mah batts., electronics tray, and melted the stuffing tube in prop. shaft.
After testing parts I'm positive it was either the ESC or Motor which started all of this? I tore the motor apart for inspection armature looked clean and damage free, inside windings looked okay but hard to see very well. Next I tried to test the motor on a 3S 75C pack but as soon as I touched the wires the motor spun and then the heat at the wires was insane! I'm assuming the motor is toast ? I did do a bit of research to replace the motor and found the reason why this boat is so much fun/fast being the motor is an "Castle 1717/1Y 1580 1/6th scale 50mm dia. x 85mm L. motor".
With that being said is this type of motor capable of being connected to an battery without large amounts of heat at 10ga connections?