Some interesting info from Safeco underwriter

[graill]

Had an insurance undewriter come by my house to verify some things i had on my renters insurance and resubmit my kiln fire insurance friday. While this happened the guy noticed i had a boatload of batteries in an old non working kiln, he asked what they were, i simply said batteries, he said lithium? I stared for a second and smiled and stated yes. He said that there is some "stuff" and he used the word "stuff" coming down the pipeline in regards to lithium fires. I asked what and now he smiled, i pressed and he asked if i had a lithium specific extinguisher, i said no, he said i should. He said in the near future any fire found burning because of a metal based combustable will be looked at and if the proper gear and extinguisher type was not present, he never did define "gear", i am assuming a mask?, anyway, if it is found these things were not present, then no payout. We talked for a bit more, guy was pretty up on day to day stuff, def not clueless. So the future gets more interesting.

I had to ask so i commented on events with rc planes, cars.....boats, he had no idea on those, said his information was home issue based.


So i looked up a lithium specific fire extinguisher, a class D sodium wont count, only an L2 copper or gel, E freaking gads...for a little one they are hella expensive, couple hundred dollars for a small standard portable. I am moving my old kiln outside and into the shed it goes.

Also never let an insurance person snoop around alone. Bad mojo.

Safeco insurance btw.

[egneg]

Very interesting ... I am sure they can test for lithium residue easy enough.

[eboat]

What happens if they find a dead cell phone in the bottom of the fire
Do not most of these phones and lap tops use lithium batteries now ??

[Jeff]

Perhaps if you explained to him that you were not charging your batteries in your boat and hd a lipo sack you could have recieved discount.

[oscarel]

Cordless drills and such also now use lithium based batteries.

[Switch]

Crap now where am I going to store my batteries? It gets way to cold here for me to store them in my shed lol

[D. Newland]

... if it is found these things were not present, then no payout. ....

I don't agree with this. I've got 20+ years in the insurance industry. If there is a fire and it wasn't intentionally set, it's covered. They can't hold that over your head. Think of the chaos.

It's always important to be safe, but things happen and that's why we have insurance.

I had a client burn down his house and his neighbors house because he chose to attempt to solder a copper plumbing line himself. Think of how many homes have burned because someone took a nap while smoking. Covered. Candle fires. Covered.

Insurance pays for all kinds of damage caused by carelessness, wrecklessness and even illegal acts to some extent. Damage and injury caused by DUI's, texting while driving, etc. I even had a guy set the cruise control on his brand new F150 on the freeway (at night), then jumped out the driver window to commit suicide. He survived, but he lost 1 leg and part of a hand because the following vehicle ran him over. The truck...??? Bounced up along the concrete median before coming to a halt. Totaled. And covered. You may think that it was "intentional", but my client wasn't intending to damage his truck, he was intending to kill himself. Stupid...yes, but covered. But, we did not cover his medical bills.


For the sake of conversation, let's say that the insurance company required you to have an "L2/XYZ" extinguisher present. What if you were out having a burger at Chili's when the fire started...? On every home insurance application I write, I have to know that my clients have deadbolt locks, a fire extinguisher and a smoke alarm. But, coverage isn't denied if something happens and 1 or all of these things weren't working or not used. We just paid a theft claim because my client went for a walk and left only her screen door shut. We'll pay a fire claim if the smoke detector has a dead battery, or the fire extinguisher is outdated and unable to be used.


Now, what is entirely possible is for the underwriter of business insurance to have special underwriting rules/guidelines that need to be followed before insurance will be issued or renewed. It happens all the time. But, coverage will not be denied for fire damage, unless it was intentionally set.

[sanyijr]

I don't agree with this.

You don't agree with this practice? Or you don't think the Underwriter is properly informed? (or you are calling Graill a liar, but i assume not)

In CA (might be differnt from state to state), but if you don't disclose many things, you can be in big trouble with coverage. For example, if you don't disclose an outdoor trampoline, pool or play structure, you risk getting dropped or your claim rejected.

I recently bought a house and the adjuster I spoke to specifically asked about these and other items and he said similar things as Graill's situation. If anything is deemed high risk, you pretty much need to disclose it. It makes sense from a insurrer's point of view.

One other question that I was asked was if I had a external propane tank over 20 gallons within (I think it was) 50 feet of the residence structure. If you say no and you do, and the thing blows up and the house goes with it, I would not think the Insurance Co. will be handing out payment.

I might be wrong here, but you get the insurance you pay for. If you pay for coverage to cover a hazard or hazardous condition i.e. propane tank, Lithium batteries or whatever, you get that covered. If you don't disclose it.... I would expect...

But again, policies and insurance companies and associated laws vary from state to state, so it is tough to compare. They do it for earthquakes and floods. It would make sense on the smaller scale as well. I wasn't asked about Lithiums though, but soon might...

Deninitely interesting and worth keeping ears open.

[Jeff]

So Dave, tell more about this insurance company that covers meth labs. If you do not handle hazardous classified materials in the correct manor you are liable no matter what. In wisconsin it is ilegal to have gas grill or bring a propane tank on to the premises of a rental unit of 4 or more units.

[T.S.Davis]

They ask you all those pointed questions to determine your rate. I'm totally assuming here.

We run into the same sort of thing with sprinkler system design. We have to ask what you intend to use your building for. A system protecting rubber tire storage on racks is a totally different animal than a system for office space. The cost for tire storage is exponentially higher.

I would think with an insurance company it works the same way. They ask pertinent questions so they can determine the risk. That risk translates into dollars and cents. Used to be rates changed if your home was closer to a hydrant. Ever been asked if you always wear your seat belt by your insurance agent? It's not so that he can deny you coverage later. It's so they can determine how much insuring you might cost them. That cost is passed on to you the insured in your payment.

[sanyijr]

Ever been asked if you always wear your seat belt by your insurance agent? It's not so that he can deny you coverage later. It's so they can determine how much insuring you might cost them. That cost is passed on to you the insured in your payment.

Actually, I would compare it to Life Insurance. Ever die of a pre-existing condition that you did NOT disclose to the Life Insurance Company? You bet they would not pay out in that event. So...... Is a Lipo addiction a pre-existing condition you ask? My wife says "yes".

Best thing to do would be to check you anual certification of ceverage and actually read it.

[graill]

Well the situation was, i left him in the kiln room so i could go answer a phone call he opened both kilns and saw the unused one was full of lipos, now when you see 12 62s packs and 10 others of varying types i kind of figured he was going to ask a question or two. In my case that is quite a bit more than a laptop or a few power tools as D. Newland described and quantity was the focus of our conversation, laptops and powertools never came up.

The quantity and type was what he referenced. I told him All my lipos could go up at once and my kiln would simply laugh at them, and he knew this, both are cone 12 rated for unlimited time, there was no fire hazard at all, i would just have a bunch of smoke residue to deal with. In my case, he said quantity is a determining factor and insurance companies have blinders on, they see white or black. He wasnt an ass or anything about it. My insurance did not go up, my kilns got recertified and photos were updated. My lipos are still sitting in my kiln, inside as it is my choice, in two years i will get another recert and move them outside while the next person looks at the kiln room so i do not cause problems or know how the next person will react.

The moral to the story is never to let folks poke about your home unescorted. Grin.

Also my insurance is a bit wierd as i also have three phase for kilns that push 3-5 thousand degrees, so i have some mandatory requirments the average homeowner does not.

[sanyijr]

Also my insurance is a bit wierd as i also have three phase for kilns that push 3-5 thousand degrees, so i have some mandatory requirments the average homeowner does not.

Wait.... what? 3000 degree kiln? Oh, that's all... don't we all have at least one (just kidding if it isn't obvious)

So... I am not an insurance underwriter. So, can I ask what they are for?

If that is the case, I wouldn't expect them to flinch at a stack of Lipos....

[graill]

Wait.... what? 3000 degree kiln? Oh, that's all... don't we all have at least one (just kidding if it isn't obvious)

So... I am not an insurance underwriter. So, can I ask what they are for?

If that is the case, I wouldn't expect them to flinch at a stack of Lipos....

Porcelain.

[sanyijr]

May I pry a bit more? Do you make porcelain caps for teeth?