Carbon Fiber

[nova68]

I have a Delta Force 33 and I want to lay Carbon Fiber in side the boat, is it better to put a coat of resin then lay the carbon fiber down and put another coat on top.Or is it better to spray 3M Super 77 on the carbon fiber then lay it inside and put a coat of resin on top of the carbon fiber? I am using 5oz Twill Carbon Fiber. I am using the West System # 105 Resin and # 205 Hardner.

[sailr]

I haven't done it but others that use the 3m contact cement say it works great. The next time, I am going to use that method.

[detox]

I would spray a light mist coat of the 3M spray adhesive onto fiber and hull before attaching to hull. Then apply thin warm finishing resin over carbon fiber cloth.

[wakeboardfusion]

http://rcboatsbypetere.blogspot.com/

there are two videos there called how to lay resin on the floor that pretty much sum it up.

[Chris Harris]

The problem with using an epoxy for this, on this hull, is that the hull is made from
either polyester or vinylester resin. It would be better to use one of those to insure
good adhesion. I would scuff the surface with some 80grit and then put a light coat of resin where your going to lay the carbon. Lay it on top of that, then finish wetting it out. The 3m spray glue will form a barrier between the hull and the carbon and very little resin will be able to make through to contact the hull. Therefore you will be relying on the spray glue for the bond between hull and carbon. This will not be near as strong as a resin to resin bond. This has been my experience.

Chris

[nova68]

I am using the West System Resin the Resin is # 105 and the hardner is # 205. I was told that system would go over any thing.

[Jesse J]

I see Chris's point, I like the idea of the resin being in direct contact with the hull, not the spray glue - not that the resin wouldn't adhere to the spray glue, but that the spray glue may not have as solid of a bond as the resin to the hull.

I have never done it, but see the logic and will try Chris's method on my next project.

[tiqueman]

I am using the West System Resin the Resin is # 105 and the hardner is # 205. I was told that system would go over any thing.

All I use. Matter of fact, just layed a hull up about 5 hours ago. I put a coat of resin in the hull, then lay in the CF. Wear latex gloves and get in there and get it all set and how you want it. Then I take the brush and dab around on it pushing the CF into the previously layed resin. Keep your brush wet, but dont over do it. I try to get it to the point its almost ready to start to puddle. Some areas it does a little bit, just work it out as best you can w/ the brush.

Also, lil tip. Once you figure out how large a piece of CF you need, spray a line of hair spray where you will be cutting. Not too much as you dont want to stiffen it, but it will keep it from fraying when you cut and handle it.

[Jesse J]

spray a line of hair spray where you will be cutting.

what do you use hairspray for other than CF? I mean how does your hair do if you use hairspray for anything else?

Kool, I will be goin at it next week once my hull gets here. Where is best place to get said resin and CF?

[tiqueman]

LOL.. actually, I sneak it from the Mrs...

I order my CF from Fiberglast.com. They run sales and good deals all the time. Get on their mailing list.

West Systems resin from West Marine.

[Jeepers]

The problem with using an epoxy for this, on this hull, is that the hull is made from
either polyester or vinylester resin. It would be better to use one of those to insure
good adhesion. I would scuff the surface with some 80grit and then put a light coat of resin where your going to lay the carbon. Lay it on top of that, then finish wetting it out. The 3m spray glue will form a barrier between the hull and the carbon and very little resin will be able to make through to contact the hull. Therefore you will be relying on the spray glue for the bond between hull and carbon. This will not be near as strong as a resin to resin bond. This has been my experience.

Chris

I agree with Chris I have done a couple of hulls trying the 3m spray glue and then laminating over it it DOES NOT WORK after a while the 3m glue will fail and then CF, or FG will come off of the hull. yes West systems will go over anything, does not mean it will adhere to everything. my friend and I have tried the same thing on high power model rockets when laminating CF it failed to add strength to the tubes, causing in flight failures.

[bonewar]

My method,

Try and use the same resin as the hull.(poly,epoxy,vinlyester)
Sand the inside of the hull where you will be adding the carbon ,then clean with some acetone.
Cut the carbon , always a little bigger then what you need. Trimmed later. vinyl gloves on.
I like to use a small brush and a small paint roller , metal rib roller.
I apply a thin coat of resin onto the surface of the hull with the brush , then i roll it out with the paint roller to get a very even coat, lay down the carbon mat very carefully into its position .
When you are happy with the placement of the carbon , I then add resin to the carbon using my brush to start with. At this stage you have to be very careful not to upset the fibers (they will move around if you are to heavy handed).
I add enough resin so that the carbon is completely wet, Then i use the metal rib roller . Roll very gentle to get the air out of your lay up. To finish i use the paint roller to achieve a very thin even coat. The paint roller works well because it soaks up any extra resin. I also use the little mixing stick to push the carbon into the tight areas . After about 2 hours of drying i then clean up all the rough edges with a very sharp knife. Easy to do this before the resin is completely cured.
Let it cure for a couple of days.
I like to put another thin layer of resin down over my cured carbon to cover any spots that i missed the first time, also for a better look. For this i use resin and the small paint roller.

Bonewar

[sailr]

Can't argue with your skills, the layup is fantastic!

I tried the hair spray trick so the fiber wouldn't frey and unravel when cut and handled. Worked great until I tried applying resin. The resin will NOT penetrate the hair spray! I had to saturate the fiber with alcohol to get rid of the hairspray before I could apply the resin.

Some said 'not too much, you don't want to stiffen it'. I'm not sure how to do that. Any amount of hairspray seems to stiffen it in my case. Maybe I'm using too strong a hairspray. Dunno.

Ideas?

My method,

Try and use the same resin as the hull.(poly,epoxy,vinlyester)
Sand the inside of the hull where you will be adding the carbon ,then clean with some acetone.
Cut the carbon , always a little bigger then what you need. Trimmed later. vinyl gloves on.
I like to use a small brush and a small paint roller , metal rib roller.
I apply a thin coat of resin onto the surface of the hull with the brush , then i roll it out with the paint roller to get a very even coat, lay down the carbon mat very carefully into its position .
When you are happy with the placement of the carbon , I then add resin to the carbon using my brush to start with. At this stage you have to be very careful not to upset the fibers (they will move around if you are to heavy handed).
I add enough resin so that the carbon is completely wet, Then i use the metal rib roller . Roll very gentle to get the air out of your lay up. To finish i use the paint roller to achieve a very thin even coat. The paint roller works well because it soaks up any extra resin. I also use the little mixing stick to push the carbon into the tight areas . After about 2 hours of drying i then clean up all the rough edges with a very sharp knife. Easy to do this before the resin is completely cured.
Let it cure for a couple of days.
I like to put another thin layer of resin down over my cured carbon to cover any spots that i missed the first time, also for a better look. For this i use resin and the small paint roller.

Bonewar

[HYDROJERRY]

All sounds great and looks great but why do this, to make the boat stronger, look better,,how does epoxying down all your stuff work with it, does it help it stick better,,,,,huuummmm

[jcald2000]

Some basics here;
1. Poly will not stick to it's self with any strength. It will delam in time.
2. Sand the area to rough it up, I use 60 to 80 grit, the more surface area the stronger the bond it is mechanical not chemical.
3. Cut 1/3 of the brush off and use that to tap the cloth into the first coat of resin.
4. Blot excess resin off the cloth after a few minutes with paper towels, strength comes from the epoxy that soaks INTO the cloth. Excess just adds weight not strength. Look at the inside of a molded boat you can see the threads.
5. Use LOW TACK masking tape on the cloth before you cut and cut so you have about 1/4" left when you place it in the boat. Gently peel the tape towards the outside edge of the cloth and tap down into the resin. This will keep the edges from fraying until you have the cloth in place and will keep the unused cloth from fraying.

[jcald2000]

Another source for Carbon and other goodies.

http://www.solarcomposites.com/

[daveives]

I have used thin CA (instant glue) applied to carbon fiber which is laid inside polyester hulls. I drop a little thin CA onto the carbon and rub it in with a thin sheet of Teflon wrapped around my finger, repeating until all the carbon is covered. Clean the polyester surface first with acetone. This works surprisingly well and is light in weight.

[Gerwin Brommer]

Unravel :

Cut the carbon, cut the same piece of glasscloth.
Aply resin on carbon, lay the glass on top.
Pick up the dual-layer and put it in hull.
In this way the carbon stays neat, and the glass on top is an insulator aswell, as carbon
is conducting.

[nova68]

You all have been a BIG HELP I want to THANK all of you THANKS.

[bonewar]

Can't argue with your skills, the layup is fantastic!

I tried the hair spray trick so the fiber wouldn't frey and unravel when cut and handled. Worked great until I tried applying resin. The resin will NOT penetrate the hair spray! I had to saturate the fiber with alcohol to get rid of the hairspray before I could apply the resin.

Some said 'not too much, you don't want to stiffen it'. I'm not sure how to do that. Any amount of hair spray seems to stiffen it in my case. Maybe I'm using too strong a hair spray. Dunno.

Ideas?

Sailr,

Mate i have tryed the hair spray and CA, both make the carbon go hard.
I now use masking tape. I cut a piece of tape about 5mm lay it down on the carbon then cut down the middle. It allows you to conform the carbon to almost any shape without it fraying the edges. Let it cure for about 2 hours then trim the extra carbon with the tap off.

HYDROJERRY,

The carbon inside my hull is for extra strength and looks. The Maritimo is designed for 3.5cc = 1.3hp , I'm using 4.18hp . The boat has survived some serious high speed crashes and is still as strong as the day i layed it up.

Bonewar

[tiqueman]

Some basics here;
1. Poly will not stick to it's self with any strength. It will delam in time.
2. Sand the area to rough it up, I use 60 to 80 grit, the more surface area the stronger the bond it is mechanical not chemical.
3. Cut 1/3 of the brush off and use that to tap the cloth into the first coat of resin.
4. Blot excess resin off the cloth after a few minutes with paper towels, strength comes from the epoxy that soaks INTO the cloth. Excess just adds weight not strength. Look at the inside of a molded boat you can see the threads.
5. Use LOW TACK masking tape on the cloth before you cut and cut so you have about 1/4" left when you place it in the boat. Gently peel the tape towards the outside edge of the cloth and tap down into the resin. This will keep the edges from fraying until you have the cloth in place and will keep the unused cloth from fraying.

#4 is what I was getting at about not letting it puddle. I tried using the paper towel blotting method the first time I laminated a hull in CF and was somewhat unsuccesful, as they were cheapo paper towels and left debris in the resin. I pulled it all out and started over. Wasnt happy about that.

But Ive been told by several laminators the same thing, strength comes from the resin soaked into the fibers, not layered on top. Yes it looks absolutely awesome to have a mirror finish layup in your boat. But as stated above, there is no strength gains, it just adds weight. I do however like to do parts (motor mounts, servo mounts, etc.) in that fasion, with a nice mirror finish.

Bonewar, Id be afraid to put anything in that hull. She too pretty. It is very nice work youve done. Ive heard about the metal roller but havent tried that yet. I may pick one of those up for my next project.

[tiqueman]

Oh and Bonewar, is your bulkhead epoxied into the hull? Ive heard that doing this w/out creating a vent hole will cause stress cracks and visual "attachment" lines outside the hull. Ive been told to put and expansion plug in the bulkhead and only install while running the boat. And to leave it removed while the boat is stored so air can circulate between the two sides.

Ive also heard using caulk to secure it rather than resin.

Any thoughts or experiences?

[bonewar]

Oh and Bonewar, is your bulkhead epoxied into the hull? Ive heard that doing this w/out creating a vent hole will cause stress cracks and visual "attachment" lines outside the hull. Ive been told to put and expansion plug in the bulkhead and only install while running the boat. And to leave it removed while the boat is stored so air can circulate between the two sides.

Ive also heard using caulk to secure it rather than resin.

Any thoughts or experiences?

Tiqueman,

The bulkhead in my Maritimo is glassed in at the bottom. The top part of the carbon bulkhead does not touch the deck of the boat (about 3mm short) In this area i use black sikaflex (silicone base glue) In the middle there is a gap of around 4cm for the air traped inside the front of the hull to move.
No marks on the hull any where.
Here is a picture(inside) of the finished boat . SIMRAD MARITIMO.

Bonewar

[mappo]

Hey guy,
Mix your epoxy and wet out the carbon using an old credit card or similar and lay in hull. then use a small brush and saturate carbon then squeegee out excess and leave to dry.
Make sure to work quickly. i have done it before but with my vacuum bagging machine.
Try Bonewar method, but only if you are working at temp. below 60 degrees or your epoxy will harden in minutes, and the whole thing will be a mess. get some help with the layup
205 hardener will have a pot life of 9-10 minutes with a working time 0f 30 minutes and the layup will cure in 6-8 hrs.

[bonewar]

My method,

Try and use the same resin as the hull.(poly,epoxy,vinlyester)
Sand the inside of the hull where you will be adding the carbon ,then clean with some acetone.
Cut the carbon , always a little bigger then what you need. Trimmed later. vinyl gloves on.
I like to use a small brush and a small paint roller , metal rib roller.
I apply a thin coat of resin onto the surface of the hull with the brush , then i roll it out with the paint roller to get a very even coat, lay down the carbon mat very carefully into its position .
When you are happy with the placement of the carbon , I then add resin to the carbon using my brush to start with. At this stage you have to be very careful not to upset the fibers (they will move around if you are to heavy handed).
I add enough resin so that the carbon is completely wet, Then i use the metal rib roller . Roll very gentle to get the air out of your lay up. To finish i use the paint roller to achieve a very thin even coat. The paint roller works well because it soaks up any extra resin. I also use the little mixing stick to push the carbon into the tight areas . After about 2 hours of drying i then clean up all the rough edges with a very sharp knife. Easy to do this before the resin is completely cured.
Let it cure for a couple of days.
I like to put another thin layer of resin down over my cured carbon to cover any spots that i missed the first time, also for a better look. For this i use resin and the small paint roller.

Bonewar

Here is how i go about cutting the carbon.
lay it down , measure piece required , pull gentle 1 thread out to give you a straight line. I than add the 1cm piece of masking tape pushed down onto the mat.
Then with very sharp scissors cut out.

This next picture is of the M12 Maritimo that i'm building now. It is the first coat of resin roll out with the paint roller.
I could stop here and leave it as it is.
But i really like the wet shinny look , and for the extra 30g of weigh the last coat is worth it.
And almost cleaned up.

Bonewar

[tiqueman]

Bonewar, layout in that Simrad looks very nice. I like your placement of the ESC's.

And man, sometimes the obvious just sneaks right by... pull out one strand to get your straing line. I feel like such a .... Straining my eyes to try and follow the patter to cut it straight... and theres the solution. Thanks for that tip!

So you lay up your cats in 3 pieces?

[bonewar]

Bonewar, layout in that Simrad looks very nice. I like your placement of the ESC's.

And man, sometimes the obvious just sneaks right by... pull out one strand to get your straing line. I feel like such a .... Straining my eyes to try and follow the patter to cut it straight... and theres the solution. Thanks for that tip!

So you lay up your cats in 3 pieces?

Thanks Tiqueman,

Mate for the Simrad cat it was a 1 piece of 5oz plain carbon.
Slow cure resin catalst. I think i heated up the resin for this one as well.
I use ca to hold down the carbon in a few spots then added the resin, wet out with brush and rolled in method.
And it did come out very nice.

For the M12 Maritimo 5oz twill carbon.
Epoxy resin with a 20 min work time.
1 layer of black glass 1 layer of carbon same resin method.
Also the join on both sides of the hull get a layer of glass for added strength.
This M12 is caring 7+ hp don't want the floor of the cat to move.

Bonewar

[tiqueman]

Ive layed up a couple cats now and have done them in one piece using 5.7oz 2x2 twill. Takes a little time but they have all turned out very nice. I get about 20-30 min work time before the resin begins to kick. So far thats been just enough time to make things right.

V-hulls are so much easier.

M12 sounds like its going to be an impressive build.

[RandyatBBY]

Lots of good information hear on fiber lay up. I have been real busy this weekend sorry I did not have time to help but I think what has been said By Bone war and the rest will help you. I have to get ready to go to Golden Gate Park and run boats with Wilmer. It is beautiful out side today!


I have been thinking about how I use the Super 77 on the Styrene lay up and it does bond. I think that what chris was saying is true if you put too much 77 on I never thought about it before. But the way I do it and that is only for ABS Or styrene with Thin CA It does seep threw and create a bond. I have noticed further up the hull if there is not enough thin CA to seep threw is is not bonded.

[tiqueman]

Great info Randy. I was contemplating adding some reinforcement in a mini rio as the hull has been cracked. I may try your method on that. So you ONLY use ca as the "resin" or do you put resin over the ca after it has cured? And whichever method is over a light coat of super 77 to adhere the carbon or glass to the hull?