P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[Fluid]

...You did not comment on the 5+ Min. needed for IMPBA Offshore.

Didn't think I needed to, this discussion is for NAMBA rules isn't it? But all the IMPBA racers would need to do is prop down.

I guess I don't understand the reason for Limited. I though it was a lower-cost, easier-to-drive class to attract new members, like RTRs. How many 4S RTRs run 2P? How many newbies will stick around if the top racers keep winning and the newbie keeps losing, versus how many will stay if they have a chance to win?

I see this as a great opportunity to remake the class to attract more members. I guess most others just want another fast class they can dominate, "newbies fend for yourselves". I'm out of here.


.

[Doby]

Larry, I race my Revolt in Offshore and won it last year at the Mich Cup (against about 25 ish total boats.)...bone stock with a slightly modded m445 and a 25C 5800 Turingy pack (2nd season on the pack) 20ish % left when it comes in.

Guess I'm just that much better at setting up my boats than everyone else there.

[ray schrauwen]

You set up a great rtr boat Doby and I mean that with respect . My largest packs for limited classes is 6000mah. The Hacker cells I bought from Jason are really fantastic.

What were we discussing? Larry has a cool offshore mono.

Current motor list works. Fix when broken.

[T.S.Davis]

IMPBA has offshore rules? I haven't read the book lately. Maybe I missed it.

Most of the P offshore boats at the cup were limited boats. Few ran full P. Those that did pushed too hard and flipped or broke something. Length limits playing a real role in offshore.

1p or 2p won't do a thing for us. Battery manufacturers change constantly. An 8k battery isn't that crazy. I like to carry 6600 in p lim offshore. I use 2p because it fits in the boat nicely. When Ty runs that same boat in P we carry 8k because the water tends to get rougher with the lunatics pushing.

Honestly, the new guy isn't winning jack with his shelf purchase. He's going to get killed by the guy that worked the bottom, balanced his prop, tapered his drive dog, got his CG perfect and then turned 50 plus laps a week for a month getting ready to race. Helping new guy learn to do all that rot is the experienced guys job. New guy wants to know mist of the time.

"Here's why I think you got beat. Let's try x,y,z"

The boats will get faster with this suggested size limit. They will be closer to P. But they are a limit that allows some freedom, better mitors, and still keeps the RTR guy legal right out of the box.

[rayzerdesigns]

I don't think they will get any faster in my opinion.. Darin tested a bunch of these motors and pretty much current crop were the best

[zooma]

But, if the substitute motors are higher quality then the AQUA 2030, then won't racers just prop-up because the motor can handle it?

[Doby]

But, if the substitute motors are higher quality then the AQUA 2030, then won't racers just prop-up because the motor can handle it?

Which is why you will NEVER stop people from pushing things to their limit and burning things up.

Human nature

[rayzerdesigns]

Just because they are supposably a better quality doesn't mean they are faster.. But yes people will burn them up trying to push limits.. I have pushed my dynamite motors into 160 range consistently without problems

[dethow]

So Terry Davis and I were talking about how to start working some testing into our club races for some motors that would fit the dimensions discussed. We really don't see a way to keep it fair to everyone. The guy with a different motor will not race for points, but what if there is an incident which results in a points racer being affected by the boat with different motor.

We also don't think its a good idea for our club to just move the entire club over to the dimension rules because that affects our MI Cup race and affects those that go to Nats.

I hope Terry will chime in here as well. It seems like these dimension rules just need to be proposed and we need to go with it instead of going through a testing period. What is a testing period really going to accomplish? Terry mentioned that there was no testing period when the rules changed over to lipo batteries.

Guess I'm just asking those that have the knowledge and ability to start the process on getting a rule change proposal going.

Thank you in advance for the hard work and efforts for whomever starts this process.

[Darin Jordan]

Terry mentioned that there was no testing period when the rules changed over to lipo batteries.

I think, and maybe Doug Smock or someone can chime in here, that the IMPBA has an official "proposal and then testing and then official" type of implementation for some of their rules. I'm certain NAMBA doesn't officially have that.

There was not "official" testing period that I know of, but I DO know that our club, and others, were running lipos locally long before the rules ever got proposed.

[ray schrauwen]

Just because they are supposably a better quality doesn't mean they are faster.. But yes people will burn them up trying to push limits.. I have pushed my dynamite motors into 160 range consistently without problems

I grabbed one of those 1500kv Dynamite's but yet to try it out. Darin said that AQ had updated the 2030kv gold motor get again I've not tried one nor have I heard much about the newest batch.

[Flanders]

need to just ad rtr boats as legal for limited. Coming from a guy that just joined and know a couple the might want to join but wont because they have to buy a new motor for a boat they just bought. It would help get more people to join, most people that like it will stay and mod later need to get involved first to get the itch

[RandyatBBY]

need to just ad rtr boats as legal for limited. Coming from a guy that just joined and know a couple the might want to join but wont because they have to buy a new motor for a boat they just bought. It would help get more people to join, most people that like it will stay and mod later need to get involved first to get the itch

On the club level the district FE Chairman usually allows this.

I always thought that it was heat that specked the motors but I have been running Telemetry with a heat sensor and at the point of melting the leads in the motor, It is not that hot 108 to 120 degrees. I believe it is amp draw that burns the motor......so a fuse could be used and save a lot of motors. We just need to determine the amps/volts we want and that will settle all the discussion.

[Darin Jordan]

.so a fuse could be used and save a lot of motors. We just need to determine the amps/volts we want and that will settle all the discussion.

Randy,

I've researched hi-Amp fuses... it's not... NOT... as simple an implementation as you might think.

[T.S.Davis]

need to just ad rtr boats as legal for limited. Coming from a guy that just joined and know a couple the might want to join but wont because they have to buy a new motor for a boat they just bought. It would help get more people to join, most people that like it will stay and mod later need to get involved first to get the itch

The size limits would make them legal without adding them to any list. Most (not all) of the RTR 4s boats come with a motor that is less than the 36x61 limits we have been tossing around. The most recent player in that game is Promarine. I believe his SSS motor is smaller than the limit. All those would be legal. Just an example. The Hobbyking RTR Pursuit comes with something that would be legal too I believe.

[Flanders]

i run the Promarine MTR. if someone said i could run my rtr motor, the 2030 would be out in a heart beet i liked the way it ran before

[RandyatBBY]

Randy,

I've researched hi-Amp fuses... it's not... NOT... as simple an implementation as you might think.

You have my ear, it seams it would eliminate the grey area. I am a nuts and bolts guy what makes it so complicated?

[Darin Jordan]

Most (not all) of the RTR 4s boats come with a motor that is less than the 36x61 limits we have been tossing around.

You'll want to make those Limits 36.3mm x 61.2mm. That's based on real-world measurements of already approved P-LTD motors, as well as several motors that have been tossed around over the past year (TP3660-1950KV, etc.).

I think you'll find that's a very reasonable limit.

[Darin Jordan]

You have my ear, it seams it would eliminate the grey area. I am a nuts and bolts guy what makes it so complicated?

All of these fuses have parameters. Some are flat out "blow" at the Amp Limit. Others are various rates of slow/fast blow. The tolerances are pretty broad, much like with our ESCs and motors, so "BURST" rates on, say an 100-Amp "Slow-Blow" fuse might be as high at 175A for 5-Seconds. Hell, that's the length of a straightaway.

Trying to pick the "right" fuse would take a lot of research. Trying to TECH the right fuse sounds to me like a nightmare.

I like the idea, but would the implementation would likely be troublesome, especially considering the number of people in RC Boating who still struggle to understand mAh, paralleling vs. series, etc.

[Darin Jordan]

You'll want to make those Limits 36.3mm x 61.2mm. That's based on real-world measurements of already approved P-LTD motors, as well as several motors that have been tossed around over the past year (TP3660-1950KV, etc.).

I think you'll find that's a very reasonable limit.

P_LITE_MOTOR_DIAGRAM_INRUNNER.jpg

[RandyatBBY]

All of these fuses have parameters. Some are flat out "blow" at the Amp Limit. Others are various rates of slow/fast blow. The tolerances are pretty broad, much like with our ESCs and motors, so "BURST" rates on, say an 100-Amp "Slow-Blow" fuse might be as high at 175A for 5-Seconds. Hell, that's the length of a straightaway.

Trying to pick the "right" fuse would take a lot of research. Trying to TECH the right fuse sounds to me like a nightmare.

I like the idea, but would the implementation would likely be troublesome, especially considering the number of people in RC Boating who still struggle to understand mAh, paralleling vs. series, etc.

Thanks for the info it makes sense to me now.

[Darin Jordan]

Thanks for the info it makes sense to me now.

I did buy several variations to test the theory, but haven't gotten around to actually doing the testing.

You'd really need something that could handle 80A to 100A continuous, but would deal with short spikes to 130 or so to account for normal P-LTD amp ranges. Getting that combination will take some research/testing.

[dethow]

P_LITE_MOTOR_DIAGRAM_INRUNNER.jpg

Looks good.
What is a real world time frame in which we may see a proposal made for the change?

[Darin Jordan]

Looks good.
What is a real world time frame in which we may see a proposal made for the change?

That would be up to people up the food-chain. I'm just a PSFEMBC member who decided to write something up our club could use.

The process is, normally, for a District Director to agree to propose it, then they would take it to the NAMBA board to decide to put it out for a membership vote.

[Darin Jordan]

Looks good.
What is a real world time frame in which we may see a proposal made for the change?

That would be up to people up the food-chain. I'm just a PSFEMBC member who decided to write something up our club could use.

The process is, normally, for a District Director to agree to propose it, then they would take it to the NAMBA board to decide to put it out for a membership vote.

I don't actually expect to see any change Nationally... Perhaps a club or two... I know some guys in our club are interested. They've already been running "other" motors which were involved in my motor testing for the past season (TP3660-1950, etc.).

[JohnZ]

So let me get this straight; with my JAE 21 FE, I'm going to run it with a TP Power 3630/2200KV motor, 4S pack but the motor has too high KV to run as P Ltd. So then I would have to either drop down to 1950 or can I use a smaller prop?

[Doug Smock]

IMPBA has offshore rules? I haven't read the book lately. Maybe I missed it.

Late to the party here.

No FE off shore rules in the IMPBA. That's not to say you can't run the class.

[Doug Smock]

I think, and maybe Doug Smock or someone can chime in here, that the IMPBA has an official "proposal and then testing and then official" type of implementation for some of their rules. I'm certain NAMBA doesn't officially have that.

Again late to the party.

1. Rule Proposal under General Rules of Competition, Contest & Racing Rules, Technical
Standards, and Classes
a) Option #1 - All rule proposals supported by a majority of the Executive Board, will
automatically undergo a trial period for one year (except as noted in section 1, C). After
one year, the proposal will be distributed to IMPBA membership with a ballot that will
require a head count for and against the proposal. Ballots shall be returned to the
respective District Director or the IMPBA secretary within the time stipulated. The final
vote of the Executive Board will be effective with the next quarterly report.
b) Option #2 - Board members vote by majority to turn down a submitted proposal. This
option terminates the proposal.
c) Option #3 - All rule proposals not supported and not terminated under option #2 by the
Board, will be distributed to IMPBA membership for vote by a ballot that will require a
head count for or against the proposal. The membership vote will determine the
implementation of said proposal and, if passed, will be effective with the next quarterly
report.
All Racing Rule proposals reviewed by the Board will be published in the Roostertail for
one full quarter before being voted on by the membership in the following calendar
quarter with the exception of one-year trials.
d) Option #4- Board members vote by majority to indefinitely table a submitted proposal.
This option allows a proposal to be revisited at a later time determined at Boards
discretion. A majority vote of the board required to re-visit proposal.

[Doby]

So let me get this straight; with my JAE 21 FE, I'm going to run it with a TP Power 3630/2200KV motor, 4S pack but the motor has too high KV to run as P Ltd. So then I would have to either drop down to 1950 or can I use a smaller prop?

Running in IMBPA or NAMBA??

[T.S.Davis]

So let me get this straight; with my JAE 21 FE, I'm going to run it with a TP Power 3630/2200KV motor, 4S pack but the motor has too high KV to run as P Ltd. So then I would have to either drop down to 1950 or can I use a smaller prop?

John, come by and see us. Come spring your setup will likely be legal locally. I literally just dropped that setup in our JAE too.

MMEU will be running it's own spec come spring. I suspect that is. The club has to vote on it but we've been talking about it all summer and most seem to be on board with the idea.