Too many Guns

[Punisher 67]

+ .................... Another great debate.................

[AndyKunz]

Yes Andy, I know it was the ACLU's fault, really, you have that little regard for the police??

I have no idea what you're talking about here, Bill, but just let me clarify where I stand with the cops:

My oldest son is a cop. We're very proud of him. His beat is one of the bad parts of town - drugs, gangs, etc.

Andy

[Bill-SOCAL]

I have no idea what you're talking about here, Bill, but just let me clarify where I stand with the cops:

My oldest son is a cop. We're very proud of him. His beat is one of the bad parts of town - drugs, gangs, etc.

Andy

SOrry about that, I meant Dr. Jet. He wrote this earlier:

One of the key elements you forget is that police are now "hesitating" before drawing their weapons. Why?

"Will I get sued by the ACLU if I draw my gun?"
"With the radical feminist police chief of Oakland suspend me for not being tolerant of the suspect's diversity?"
"Will I be terminated for being a racist, homophobe, bigot?"

Yes, they may have been armed, but their training on the range may have been neglected during their "Diversity Training".

My oldest friend is a cop, my uncle was a cop, and I count several as friends. I think they are better trained and better prepared than this.

[Bill-SOCAL]

This just in:

(CNN) -- One person was killed and three others were wounded during a shooting at a religious retreat Tuesday at a remote campground in southern California.

The shooting near the city of Temecula was reported about 7:23 p.m. (10:23 p.m. ET), said Sgt. Dennis Gutierrez, public information officer for the Riverside County Sheriff's Department.

Gutierrez did not offer many details about the shooting, saying officers had problems getting information because of a language barrier.

The retreat was for a Korean group, Gutierrez said. Police thought the shooter was one of the people injured, he added. Those wounded were in critical condition.

"Everybody was shot," Gutierrez said. "This apparently was a religious retreat. There are some ladies here who appear to be nuns who are very distraught about what just occurred here."

Unraveling the crime would take time, according to a sheriff's spokeswoman.

"The victims were in different locations, so it is a fairly big crime scene," Deputy Herlinda Valenzuela said.

Too bad those nuns were not armed themselves. They could have nipped this one in the bud!!

[Bill-SOCAL]

More tragedy:

http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/42658232.html

Two police shot, one fatally. They went into a situation where they knew the guy was armed, so no ambush theory here.

I guess what I am getting to is I wish hard core gun folks would just be truthful in their position instead of trying to trump up all kinds of silly rationale for their desire to be armed. You like it. It makes you feel better. I am totally OK with that as a reason.

Beyond that the facts are really not on your side and these absurd statements about how you're going to kill 'em all and let God sort them out when things go bad are just that, silly.

[Dr. Jet]

SOrry about that, I meant Dr. Jet. He wrote this earlier:




My oldest friend is a cop, my uncle was a cop, and I count several as friends. I think they are better trained and better prepared than this.

I have all the respect in the world for cops. I just think that their training is going in the wrong direction. The ACLU and the Vermin in Black Robes have them hesitating instead of taking action.

For example: In the Oakland shootings, some or all of them would still be alive if they approached that car with guns drawn when that cockroach popped out of the open sunroof and started firing. They knew he was a felon and a rape suspect.

Why did they not have their guns drawn? Liberalism. You don't want to OFFEND the suspect do you? You could get sued, lose your job, pay millions in "damages". In times past, before the ACLU and the Vermin in Black Robes dictated how a cop is supposed to act, cops would approach violent suspects with firepower at the ready.

Now they have to worry what will happen after they act.

[bustitup]

Steve said this one would get HOT

Do you really think if we are made to turn our guns in that the "Bad Guys" wont have guns anymore?.....I think you should just leave us "good guys" alone and dont worry about why we want to keep them because its really none of your business what the reason is.....

More tragedy:

http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/42658232.html

Two police shot, one fatally. They went into a situation where they knew the guy was armed, so no ambush theory here.

I guess what I am getting to is I wish hard core gun folks would just be truthful in their position instead of trying to trump up all kinds of silly rationale for their desire to be armed. You like it. It makes you feel better. I am totally OK with that as a reason.

Beyond that the facts are really not on your side and these absurd statements about how you're going to kill 'em all and let God sort them out when things go bad are just that, silly.

[Bill-SOCAL]

Steve said this one would get HOT

Do you really think if we are made to turn our guns in that the "Bad Guys" wont have guns anymore?.....I think you should just leave us "good guys" alone and dont worry about why we want to keep them because its really none of your business what the reason is.....

Missed the point entirely. I have said nothing about taking guns away from people. At this point the Genie is out of the bottle. But what I am saying is that we as a society need to recognize that guns are extremely dangerous and that there may be very good reasons to reconsider our attitude and approach to them.

For instance, I think that the use of a firearm in the commission of any felony should result in life in prison. Period. No parole. As it stands now you are likely to spend more time in jail for animal abuse than you will for a gun violation.

I think we need to look closer at having more restrictive training requirements to hopefully reduce the number of accidental deaths. I think you should have to prove you can safely use what the gun you are buying.

But most take your approach, it is none of our business, but you are wrong. It is very much our business as a society.

[Doby]

Imagine;

Bad guys doing bad things with guns (shooting).
The good citizens draw their guns and shoot
Cops show up and try and sort the mess out, and start shooting at anyone with a gun..
Bad guys dead, good citizens dead.

Cops get blamed for killing good citizens.....

Its only a matter of time.

Thank God for Canada, its not perfect but...................

[Bill-SOCAL]

The Second Amendment reads:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The gun lobby and most enthusiasts read it like this: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


But almost always ignore this part: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State

Notice that the Second Amendment says nothing about personal safety, security, home defense, etc. It talks about the security of the state.

Just something to think about.

[AndyKunz]

Almost sounds like the founding fathers were saying that it is necessary, for the States to keep themselves free from a Federal power grab, that the states need to have an armed militia of the citizens bearing arms.

I'll go for that.

According to the Supreme Court (just last year) the emphasis needs to be allowing citizens to bear arms.

I'll go for that, too.

Don't forget the first words are, "We the People, in order to form a more perfect union, ..." They weren't talking about the government providing the people with security, they were saying that the security comes from the people governing themselves within the guidelines of the Constitution.

The Second Amendment (and the others) are about LIMITING THE GOVERNMENTs rights. Remember, unless a right is specifically delegated to the Feds by the Constitution (not a judge), it remains with the States.

Andy

[Dr. Jet]

For instance, I think that the use of a firearm in the commission of any felony should result in life in prison. Period. No parole. As it stands now you are likely to spend more time in jail for animal abuse than you will for a gun violation.

Be careful there my friend. You sound like someone that subscribes to the Savage Nation with that philosophy.

Maybe you are getting over that mental disorder.....

[AndyKunz]

For instance, I think that the use of a firearm in the commission of any felony should result in life in prison. Period. No parole. As it stands now you are likely to spend more time in jail for animal abuse than you will for a gun violation.

I'd be willing to say, after you think about the unintended consequences, you really don't want that. The prosecuting attorneys will use any and all means to put a gun in a criminal's hand in order to "look tough" and get re-elected. It also becomes a bargaining chip for getting confessions to help put your buddy in jail. Criminals will be more than happy to squeal, falsely or not, about their buddies in order to avoid a life sentence. You can't trust criminals, whether elected or on the street! Put on a little heat and they'll tell you just want they think you want to hear.

Andy

[Dr. Jet]

You can't trust criminals, whether elected or on the street!

That sounds like a topic for another 'Heated" thread.

[Bill-SOCAL]

Almost sounds like the founding fathers were saying that it is necessary, for the States to keep themselves free from a Federal power grab, that the states need to have an armed militia of the citizens bearing arms.

I'll go for that.

Cool. And it already exists. It is called the "National Guard". The courts have held as much since around 1936 or so. The recent DC gun case changed that tone a bit. Until the 2007 decision the courts had never recognized an individual's right to arms. But like I said, that has been changed so a court ruling is OK.

[AndyKunz]

Where does the Guard get its airplanes and tanks? The individual states do not contract for manufacture of any of them. They are Federally-supplied property and available for recall to Federal control at any time. The men and women are not paid for their service by the state budgets. It's Federal money.

Follow the money. That will always tell you who is calling the shots. They are in essence just loaned to the governors.

Andy

[detox]

Brady was pro gun republican until he got shot. I am pro gun also, but I have never been shot.

[Eodman]

Its simply --- You take a Life ... you give your life!

Needle, Chair, Rope just take that bastards life!

Not perfect but an effective deterrent in most cases!

From experience it ain't fun to be shot at --- no problem pulling the trigger here!

[Flying Scotsman]

Imagine;

Bad guys doing bad things with guns (shooting).
The good citizens draw their guns and shoot
Cops show up and try and sort the mess out, and start shooting at anyone with a gun..
Bad guys dead, good citizens dead.

Cops get blamed for killing good citizens.....

Its only a matter of time.

Thank God for Canada, its not perfect but...................

Amen, about the citizens and the bad guys???

Douggie

[RCprince]

My neck of the woods

WOMAN WHO KILLED SON AT SHOOTING RANGE CAUGHT ON TAPE http://www.nypost.com/seven/04082009...ge__163519.htm

[Bill-SOCAL]

Where does the Guard get its airplanes and tanks? The individual states do not contract for manufacture of any of them. They are Federally-supplied property and available for recall to Federal control at any time. The men and women are not paid for their service by the state budgets. It's Federal money.

Follow the money. That will always tell you who is calling the shots. They are in essence just loaned to the governors.

Andy

You need to go to the courts then and explain to them how wrong they are. This is not my argument, all I am doing is reproting what the courts have said.

[Bill-SOCAL]

Its simply --- You take a Life ... you give your life!

Needle, Chair, Rope just take that bastards life!

Not perfect but an effective deterrent in most cases!

From experience it ain't fun to be shot at --- no problem pulling the trigger here!

Not sure I disagree, but it is kind of interesting how many "Christians" actually hold beliefs not unlike the "Muslims" they so despise. The Bible says an eye for an eye, and Islamic law is very similar. Interesting isn't it how similar we can be to our enemies.

[RCprince]

. The Bible says an eye for an eye, and Islamic law is very similar. Interesting isn't it how similar we can be to our enemies.

brother Bill, context always

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.



And If We truly wanna be fanatics about Christianity

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[Diegoboy]

Can I get an AMEN!

[AndyKunz]

The part you quoted in red is actually from the Old Testament, and is a limitation on what punishments can be done. We have the same principal in tort law today that has established monetary values for the loss of various body parts due to accident.

Where the muslims have it wrong is that they will forever destroy a person (crushing a kids arms under a truck tire, for instance) for petty theft. Their god is a god of hate. The true God Jehovah is one of love, just as a parent loves his children. I realize some have a hard time understanding "hate the sin, love the sinner" but that's really how God is.

Until you spend time in His Word, really spend time, you won't see just how much God loves all humans, all His creation. But He has placed limits on what we can do, and requires justice. Justice is not served by over-punishment.

We as people just don't seem to "get it," I'm afraid.

Andy

[Jeff Wohlt]

God was a little more mean in the old testament than the new. His rath was much more obvious. Another words...he did not mess around... he taught some hard lessons fast with destruction and death to many.

Would you agree with this Andy? You probably know more about the old testament than most do.

[Bill-SOCAL]

Some good news for you guys:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/...oll/index.html

Here are the two nuggets:

Now, a recent poll reveals a sudden drop -- only 39 percent of Americans now favor stricter gun laws, according to a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll.

And this:

Still, the decline in American favor for stricter gun laws doesn't mean people want to see restrictions lifted -- 46 percent want no change in the current law, while only 15 percent want gun laws that are less strict.

So there is some bad news. Those that want less strict laws are in a very small minority.

And some more good news for you:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09099/961708-53.stm


So can we put to rest this silly right wing meme that Obama wants you guns? Aren't you guys tired of the crap that Sean and Rush and Glenn and Savage spew. Please tell me you're smarter than that. Plain and simple, nothing of substance is going to change anytime soon. And the NRA and the gun industry has suckered you into this buying frenzy with misinformation and distortions. Sadly, at least one young soul took it to heart and killed the three policemen in Pittsburgh.

Here are two good videos:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_184568.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBIpf...layer_embedded

[Jeff Wohlt]

As Andy said...follow the money. I think it was a rumor started that Obama wants guns out of here. Not true. He wants the bad guns off the streets. If you are caught with one you will go to prison.

This certainly put gun sales in high gear. I even had a harder time finding ammo for 9mm because every one was buying all they can and it is the most common pistol that is the cheapest to shoot...besides a little 38 and you might as well shoot a bb gun. When you see cops going up to big calibers like 40+ you know they want some stopping power and they deserve it. I say give our cops the big guns!

Talking about a jump in price for ammo. Even my little 410 shotgun went from $7 a box a year ago to $15 now.

have no doubt us gun holders have nothing to worry about. Now if I could hit the side of a barn at 30 yds with my 9mm I would be great!

Going to cost me $100 in ammo just to get it sighted in!

We are going to pay to play with our guns...this does not bother me at all. I do not shoot that much.

[Eodman]

Amen Amen Amen

Having been raised in a christian home I try to be tolerant of religions ... that said after seeing & experiencing what war does to innocents I just can not accept the presence of a superior being!

I am not talking about the combatants ... but rather the innocents that live in that country! Have you ever seen children so baldly burned from Napalm that they cannot be recognized by their parents... it ain't pretty!

Now someone is going to say it was their time to go - if that is true what did that little girl do in her life that she deserved to die so horribly? Why didn't that superior being just take her in her sleep!

Gotta go ... we all have our demons we struggle with!

[AndyKunz]

Well, Jeff, the Supreme Court kept them from taking the guns themselves. They are just making the ammo unaffordable for Joe Average by the new taxes and tracking requirements.

The bad guys will be able to afford it - it's just an increased "operaing expense" and they'll pass the costs on to their "customers" and "donors."

So all they're really doing is making sure that only the bad guys have (usable) guns.

Andy