Countries with Universal Health Care

[RCprince]

http://www.gadling.com/2007/07/05/wh...l-health-care/

[Steven Vaccaro]

Oh boy! I feel another heated topic coming!

[Dr. Jet]

And just where do the "Wealthy" people from those blue countries go when they need a heart transplant or some other complicated medical procedure? I can tell you they don't go to Cuba. And how many of the poor schmucks in the blue countries have to wait for weeks/months for medical attention; or worse yet, get told they are too old and the procedure isn't cost-effective for someone their age?

Government isn't the solution, it's the PROBLEM.

[AndyKunz]

I can tell you they don't go to Cuba.

Did you see An American Carol? That Cuba scene was so funny. Unfortunately, it's based on reality.

Government isn't the solution, it's the PROBLEM.

A certain amount of government is good. Excess government is the problem.

Remember, the Anarchists want anarchy so they can have "change" and install a socialist/communist government at the first crisis.

Rahm Emanuel: “Never Allow a Crisis to Go to Waste”

Andy

[Bill-SOCAL]

It's funny, but Republicans have no issue at all with the Gubbermint doing some things and will fund them to the max. They have no issue with paying $2.2 BILLION per B-2, but health care for all of us, nope, won't have any part of that.

And again, coming back to my religious theme, why is it so many hard right people profess to be God-Fearin' folk, but abandon the teachings of Jesus when it suits them?

Jesus said:

Whatever you do for the least of these my brothers, you do it for me. (Matthew 25:40)

I would rather see my money go to keep our people healthy than go to keeping defense contractors healthy. After all, it is exactly what Jesus would do.

[Steven Vaccaro]

It's funny, but Republicans have no issue at all with the Gubbermint doing some things and will fund them to the max. They have no issue with paying $2.2 BILLION per B-2, but health care for all of us, nope, won't have any part of that.

And again, coming back to my religious theme, why is it so many hard right people profess to be God-Fearin' folk, but abandon the teachings of Jesus when it suits them?

Jesus said:



I would rather see my money go to keep our people healthy than go to keeping defense contractors healthy. After all, it is exactly what Jesus would do.

I'd like to see a balance. I personally don't want to disarm, for the simple fact that there are still nations out there that would love to kill us all.

[Bill-SOCAL]

Sadly the US has been unable to readjust to the threats of a post Cold War World. I sincerely doubt that more strategic bombers or anti-missile satellites are going to increase our national security.

Keep in mind that the single greatest loss of life on US soil was done by 19 guys with box cutters.

I wonder how much body armor and properly armored HumVees $2.2 BILLION would buy??

As far as balance goes, the US is projected to spend about $741 billion on defense in 2009. To put that in perspective it is:

12 times more than education spending
14 times more than health care spending
67 times more than Medicare and Social Security spending

Put another way, defense spending is about 54% of the total discretionary US budget. Health and education combined are only 11.5%

So it seems that maybe, just maybe, there might be some room to work in a little more "balance".

[Dr. Jet]

Providing for the common defense IS specifically mentioned in the Constitution, and is spelled-out as a primary function and responsibility of the Federal Government. Providing for public healthcare isn't in the Constitution, nor is public education, universal healthcare or Social Security.

I want my tax dollars going for that B-2 bomber. I don't want to pay for some illegal alien's in-vitro fertilization procedure, your retirement plan (if you were irresponsible enough not to create one for yourself), or your government-sponsored (and thereby government-approved) "education" (indoctrination would be more appropriate here - listen to SoCal Bill for examples of that indoctrination).

[Bill-SOCAL]

Yes Bill, we all know your xenophobic fear of illegal aliens. But the fact is that it is your fellow citizens who are the ones who would benefit most from access to health care.

And if you want to use the Constitution as a defense for your ideas you might want stop cherry picking only the phrases that support your ideas.

From the Preamble:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

So I suggest to you that insuring that ALL citizens can get health care is the very definition of "General Welfare". And then lets consider the meaning of "Domestic Tranquility". Having health care available only to those rich enough to afford it is unlikely to contribute to that either.

[Simon.O.]

We have two types of health care here.
All accident and emergency care including hospital stays and surgury are all free.
Not quite free as I pay my taxes and an additional levy(tax) is slotted in there to cover all these costs.
Visits to the local doctor cost me, I believe those on welfare get is a lot cheaper.
Dentists are thieveing sh1tbags who I avoid If I can.
My wife has private healthcare cover which can and will cover a lot of costs.

Last year I spent 2 weeks in hospital and have no real complaints with our system.
There are waiting lists for certain things. My mother in law is waiting for a cataract removal.

Bottom line is we have the choice to go with the public or use private healthcare and pay for it. You still get to pay the levy that covers the public system.
So private healthcare for me is out.

[Doby]

Doesn't "General Welfare" mean paying to keep unemployed people to stay at home?
Or am I reading this incorrectly

[ghostofpf1]

Any one else find it ironic that according to the chart we are funding UHC for Iraq and Afghanistan yet we have people dying in the streets here in our own country due to lack of that same health care...

Steve

[Steven Vaccaro]

I would be interested to know how much of our tax dollars goes to making sure we stay in good terms other countries each year?

[Darin Jordan]

It doesn't work ANYWHERE else...

Only a bunch of MORONS would think that it would THEREFORE work HERE...

Same deal can be said about the Porkulous bill, and basically NATIONALIZATION in general... None of it has been shown to work ANYWHERE else in the world... Example after example after example of the failures of these policies and strategies exist over the past 100-years...

When Vladimir Putin comes out and suggests to the USA to NOT go down this road becuase it doesn't work... (just look at where it got the USSR...) MAYBE, JUST MAYBE... someone ought to stop and think about what we are doing...

Or are we all just too stupid or too good to learn from the mistakes of others??

[RCprince]

I
And again, coming back to my religious theme, why is it so many hard right people profess to be God-Fearin' folk, but abandon the teachings of Jesus when it suits them?

Jesus said:



I would rather see my money go to keep our people healthy than go to keeping defense contractors healthy. After all, it is exactly what Jesus would do.

Mahatma Gandhi is one of the most respected leaders of modern history. A Hindu, Ghandi nevertheless admired Jesus and often quoted from the Sermon on the Mount. Once when the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Ghandi he asked him, "Mr. Ghandi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?"

Ghandi replied, "Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ."

[Bill-SOCAL]

The estimated 2009 US Foreign Aid total is $26 billion, or 2.6% of the total budget. The total discretionary budget for FY 09 was $997 billion.

74% goes to defense and military spending and does NOT include the costs of the 2 wars we have going on.

The next largest budget item is Education, at $61.2 billion, or 6.2%

The last country to go so wildly out of proportion on defense spending was the Soviet Union, which is one of the major reasons their country collapsed.

[RCprince]

Capitalism with out the reigns of Socialism is Exploitation.

[Darin Jordan]

The next largest budget item is Education, at $61.2 billion, or 6.2%

Education costs are generally handled by the States... The Federal govenment does NOT need to be involved there... it's screwed up enough already...

The last country to go so wildly out of proportion on defense spending was the Soviet Union, which is one of the major reasons their country collapsed.

"Major Reasons"??? Couldn't have had anything to do with the rediculous "collective" ideas, Nationalization of everything, and stupid ideas about "Centralized Control"???

"Defense Spending" employs MILLIONS of people, breeds new technology, and creates entire new industries. You want something more fuel efficient... find a military need for it and then get it contracted...

Not to mention the fact that is gives us the capability to be SAFE from all the ideological idiots out there who want to destroy us simply because we exist...

There is a reason why these people have had to resort to "terrorism" or "gorilla" warfare tactics against us... I think we all know what would happen if China or even Russia thought we wouldn't be able to respond to an air assault, or even a Naval assault...

[Darin Jordan]

Capitalism with out the reigns of Socialism is Exploitation.

That's a total Crock...

Socialism is pure exploitation of those who work, to benefit those who don't...

[Bill-SOCAL]

Well Darin, most states cannot fund their education systems without federal dollars. If they did then either they would need to significantly reduce what they do or significantly increase state revenues. So while I understand your philosophical point, it has no bearing on the fact of the allocation of federal funds.

The burden of military spending that the soviet economy suffered under is widely recognized as a major contributing factor to their collapse.

As far as the jobs defense spending creates, is it your argument that if that money was allocated differently, like say to the development of alternative means of energy production, etc., that there would be no jobs in those sectors created by a huge influx of money? So if it is not spent on the military then the money is lost and there will be no job?

And I am not saying to stop military spending. But I think we can spend less, use it more wisely and still provide for our national security. Or is it your thinking that only spending in huge amounts will keep us safe??

[Bill-SOCAL]

That's a total Crock...

Socialism is pure exploitation of those who work, to benefit those who don't...

And capitalism is widely viewed as the exploitation of those who work to the benefit of those who own the means of production.

And I think you clearly do not understand what socialism is, but simply respond to the concept based on your fears and its association with the Soviet Union and other communist countries.

Again, go back to the Preamble. It CLEARLY defines the idea of the common good, which is exactly what socialism is built upon, the common good, not just the good of the rich.

Here is a good definition of socialism:

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation.

[Darin Jordan]

Here is a good definition of socialism: and a society characterized by equal opportunities for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation.

We all have equal opportunity Bill... Some of us will make it, others won't... You can't LEGISLATE equality... Nature doesn't work that way... either can our govenment. Each of us has our own special talents, and our own shortcomings.... The Federal Goverment trying to ignore that fact isn't going to get us anywhere.

We ALL have the opportunities, however... What we do with those is up to us... and that's the way it should be...

It's not going to be, however, is it, Bill??? Nope... You and I are going to continue to work our asses off, and THEY are going to take those fruits, and hand it out to those who don't, can't, or won't...

I have NO Problem helping out those who can't... but those who don't or won't... They are on their own. You reep what you sow...

[RCprince]

That's a total Crock...

Socialism is pure exploitation of those who work, to benefit those who don't...

And Capitalism unbridled is exploitation of the poor... I wonder how many people making minimum wage could afford a decent home for themselves, heathcare, food, et'al.

[Flying Scotsman]

A Scottish/Canadian reply.
As one who has witnesed 2 different public health care systems. They do have their faults...lengthy wait times for surgery, but you can see a doctor and not pay through the nose for that privilege, you will not be turned away from a hospital, even if you are not a citizen of that country and have no travel insurrance. As to the best doctors only reside in the USA that is knowsense...first heart transplant, South Africa, etc. etc.
The doctors who want to make a lot of money, do reside in the USA. Are they more skilled, I doubt it?

Douggie

[Darin Jordan]

And Capitalism is exploitation of the poor... I wonder how many people making minimum wage could afford a decent home for themselves, heathcare, food, et'al.

HOW about those people doing what the rest of us have had to do and work our freaking butts off to get ourselves through school and get decent jobs?? There IS opportunity out there for them to do that... I did it, my brother did it, my friends have done it... my co-workers have done it...

What you and Bill are proving is that I'm totally CORRECT... the answer is in the middle... Capitalism with sensible oversight...

NOT at ALL what the new lord and saviour and his band of hench-men/women is promoting or pushing through...

Well... guess what... after a time, when you keep robbing Peter to subsidize Paul... Peter eventually runs out of money and then they are both up a creek...

Great Plan! Going to be fun to watch...

[Bill-SOCAL]

We all have equal opportunity Bill...
Snip

We ALL have the opportunities, however...

You need to get out more. Spend some time in the poorest areas of this country, or in the inner city. If you do I cannot conceive of how you could say this. By accident of birth many of us have far greater opportunity for success than do many others. But we incorporate the concept that we all have equal opportunity into our thinking as if it is a reality. Sadly, it is not.

Unless you want to argue that they deserve what they are getting because their parents "failed" to take advantage of the "equal" opportunities offered to them.

I have NO Problem helping out those who can't... but those who don't or won't... They are on their own.

How do you determine the difference??

Are people poor because they are too lazy to work?? Do people have no health insurance because they are too lazy to get a job where it is offered??

[Flying Scotsman]

Darin, please explain a socialist viewpoint. I do not think the democratic party in the USA, the liberal party in Canada subscribe to that definition.
Douggie

[Bill-SOCAL]

Lets look at the myth of health care in the US as being the "best" in the world.

Take for example infant mortality rates. The US is ranked 163 out of 195 countries. 32 countries do better than we do. So we are not No. 1 there. Places like Cuba, Britain, Canada, Hong Kong, etc. all do better than us.

What about life expectancy? Well, we are #45 out of 221.

SO using these two key indicators it seems a little difficult to argue that we have the "best" health care in the world. If we do why don't we live the longest, or have the fewest infant deaths? I am not saying it is bad here by any means, but there are places where health care clearly is having better results.


One place we are No. 1 is in per capita costs for health care. But we are not getting much bang for our bucks which I think clearly shows that the system we have now is not the "best" it could be.

[Darin Jordan]

Are people poor because they are too lazy to work?? Do people have no health insurance because they are too lazy to get a job where it is offered??

I just love the way you Liberals take the exceptions and try to make them the norm...

I have friends whose families migrated here from Russia... legally I might add... because of the oppression and poor conditions... with NOTHING... and have built lives for themselves...

Americans... from the midwest... left their harsh conditions during the dust-bowl years during the dust-bowl years and started new lives for themselves...

Did all of them make it? Nope...

I said before that I had no problem helping those who simply can't help themselves... You know how you tell the difference??? You provide them an opportunity and see what they do with it... McDonald's isn't meant to be a career... but it's a start... what you do with it after that, is really up to you...

Simply handing out $$$$ isn't going to make the situations you describe any better... and NOTHING in the Porkulous package is going to either... because that's all it's doing is providing welfare...

This conversation is rediculous and going nowhere... You guys cling to your ideals and your ways that have lead to failure time and time again... You'll figure it out eventually on your own. Just too bad you have to drag the rest of us down with you...

[RCprince]

HOW about those people doing what the rest of us have had to do and work our freaking butts off to get ourselves through school and get decent jobs?? There IS opportunity out there for them to do that... I did it, my brother did it, my friends have done it... my co-workers have done it...

What you and Bill are proving is that I'm totally CORRECT... the answer is in the middle... Capitalism with sensible oversight...

NOT at ALL what the new lord and saviour and his band of hench-men/women is promoting or pushing through...

Well... guess what... after a time, when you keep robbing Peter to subsidize Paul... Peter eventually runs out of money and then they are both up a creek...

Great Plan! Going to be fun to watch...

Capitalist make their money off of whom? It benefits the capitalist to reinvest in the people who floats their boats. What happens to the Peters when Pauls runs out of money? I guess both Peter and Paul goes bust... or Peter might just hire some henchmen to to put Paul into servitude.