TP Power CM vs SVM

[Ivan Kozyakov]

Hi guys!


Pls explain the difference between the CM and SVM series of TP motors? There is no comparison on the manufacturer's website. The dealer told me there was a slight difference in power and rpm. But what is the difference in design? Does it make sense to overpay for SVM if I don't need such max rpm?

Mod.: TP4060-CM
Max.power: 7000W
Cont. Power: 3500W
Max RPM: 78K


Motor mod.: TP4060-SVM
Max power: 7,600W
Cont. Power: 4,000W
Max RPM: 82K

[koen]

for a boat the regular 4060 will perform better ,these cm and svm are better in cars

[Panther6834]

Agreed...the 'base' models are perfect for boats. The 'custom' models are directed specifically at surface vehicles...primarily used by speedrunners & drag racers.

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

[Ivan Kozyakov]

I forgot to say that my boat is for SAW-races, the rpm under load can be around 40,000.
Is it still a regular series?

[koen]

it's no problem for a regular motor but for esc go for castle because TP's are amp hogg's

[fweasel]

Tyler Garrard (RaceMechanix) posted a chart explaining the differences between all TP Power series motors. I can't find it at the moment, but will PM him and ask if he can post it again.

[Ivan Kozyakov]

Tyler Garrard (RaceMechanix) posted a chart explaining the differences between all TP Power series motors. I can't find it at the moment, but will PM him and ask if he can post it again.

I'm looking forward to it. One of these days I'm going to buy one of these motors. Summer is coming, time to set records!

[Speed2]

I have learned from experience some cans are more powerful than other cans.

I don't hear people speaking highly of the Leopards like they do the TP power motors. But I can tell you guys the new Leopards have alot more power in they cans than the older Leopards. I have a TP power 4060 1950kv that I bought in 2018.

The current batch of Leopards 4092 cans are way more powerful than the TP powers cans. Atleast those from 2018 and earlier.

I think the new Leopards should have power like the neus in saw applications.

[koen]

on there facebook page you find the divergence between all there motors

[fweasel]

This is not the chart I know I saw somewhere, but these are a few facts from Tyler Garrard regarding the SVM and CM series:

"Boats do not need the SVM or CM series. The sleeve on the rotor kills performance and causes the ESC to run quite hot."

"The SVM motors typically have a metallic sleeve and larger airgap. This reduces the precision of the BEMF rotor position calculation which taxes the ESC. Recommended to not use any of the SVM motors. The standard configurations are fine."

[fweasel]

Found the graphic I saw posted on Facebook...

TP_Power.jpg

[donhuff]

The biggest difference between regular TPs and the CM/SVM series, is that the cm/svm have a one piece cylindrical magnet. Not glued on and wrapped segmented magnets. That cylinder magnet is why the cm/svm have a higher "MECHANICAL" rpm redline, which is the rpm max that most manufacturers put on their motors. There is probably a little "cushion" rpm there I'm sure. It's not like if you go over that line by 10 rpm it will let go, but if you go 5-10,000 over, then you should expect the rotor to sling it's self apart. That's what the carbon fiber and kevlar wrap is there for. To up that rpm redline before damage occurs.

That cylinder magnet usually has been ground or cast, with very shallow peaks and valleys. They are hard to see but easy to feel. The peaks are where the POLES are located. You'll find 2 pole and 4 pole rotors in the TPs. No idea as to why??

I have received for repair several of the CM/SVM types and all I can do is rewind it, they are usually burned up when the rotor dies. Those rotor are very easy to kill with not much heat. I had one die on me while holding it in my hand and running it to test a new rewind. It was a really high kv (7600kv) TP 4040 for a 2S saw attempt. I ran it up to full rpm around 60,000 rpm, and it ran good. I tried it a second time, and it was dead. I disassembled it and found that the rotor and stator had touched in one tiny spot. Since that one I have seen that same damage in 4 or 5 customer motors.

This must have happened a lot in the CMs, because the SVMs have a .020" bigger diameter hole in the stator. And the SVMs have a groove cut down the middle in each stator tooth, and again I have no idea what it's for.

The cylinder magnet rotors are very slightly larger diameter. But strip off the carbon wrap to get an accurate measure of the magnets and that difference is more meaningful. Seems like around .010" to .020". That still doesn't seem like a lot but small increases in the diameter of the rotor have a huge affect on the torque of a motor. It also increases the "rotor displacement", much like boring a car engine for bigger pistons and more displacement. This might be why the cm/svm have a little higher max watts (HP) rating.

I have given up on the cm/svm series for my record boats, and use regular rotor in my motors now. I adjust the kv to get the rpm right at, or just slightly above the recommended rpm max. Because when in the water, the rpm will be much lower and well into the "safe" region.

[donhuff]

koen,

"it's no problem for a regular motor but for esc go for castle because TP's are amp hogg's"

Why do you say that? I have seen that posted several times and I wonder where it comes from, and why it keeps getting repeated.

[Ivan Kozyakov]

Yes. Thank you!

[Ivan Kozyakov]

The biggest difference between regular TPs and the CM/SVM series, is that the cm/svm have a one piece cylindrical magnet. Not glued on and wrapped segmented magnets. That cylinder magnet is why the cm/svm have a higher "MECHANICAL" rpm redline, which is the rpm max that most manufacturers put on their motors. There is probably a little "cushion" rpm there I'm sure. It's not like if you go over that line by 10 rpm it will let go, but if you go 5-10,000 over, then you should expect the rotor to sling it's self apart. That's what the carbon fiber and kevlar wrap is there for. To up that rpm redline before damage occurs.

That cylinder magnet usually has been ground or cast, with very shallow peaks and valleys. They are hard to see but easy to feel. The peaks are where the POLES are located. You'll find 2 pole and 4 pole rotors in the TPs. No idea as to why??

I have received for repair several of the CM/SVM types and all I can do is rewind it, they are usually burned up when the rotor dies. Those rotor are very easy to kill with not much heat. I had one die on me while holding it in my hand and running it to test a new rewind. It was a really high kv (7600kv) TP 4040 for a 2S saw attempt. I ran it up to full rpm around 60,000 rpm, and it ran good. I tried it a second time, and it was dead. I disassembled it and found that the rotor and stator had touched in one tiny spot. Since that one I have seen that same damage in 4 or 5 customer motors.

This must have happened a lot in the CMs, because the SVMs have a .020" bigger diameter hole in the stator. And the SVMs have a groove cut down the middle in each stator tooth, and again I have no idea what it's for.

The cylinder magnet rotors are very slightly larger diameter. But strip off the carbon wrap to get an accurate measure of the magnets and that difference is more meaningful. Seems like around .010" to .020". That still doesn't seem like a lot but small increases in the diameter of the rotor have a huge affect on the torque of a motor. It also increases the "rotor displacement", much like boring a car engine for bigger pistons and more displacement. This might be why the cm/svm have a little higher max watts (HP) rating.

I have given up on the cm/svm series for my record boats, and use regular rotor in my motors now. I adjust the kv to get the rpm right at, or just slightly above the recommended rpm max. Because when in the water, the rpm will be much lower and well into the "safe" region.

Very interesting. Do you think the regular series will be able to operate stably in the range of 40-45,000 rpm? According to the manual, they have a maximum of 50,000.
I am not going to use such rpm right now, only 35-40,000. But probably someday I will want to rev this motor to the limit.

[Ivan Kozyakov]

Found the graphic I saw posted on Facebook...

TP_Power.jpg

Thank you!

[donhuff]

Ivan,

The TP 4070 will work just fine all the way up to 50,000 rpm. I thought that they were good to 60,000 and have a couple set up for that. I haven't had a problem out of them yet.

[Ivan Kozyakov]

Ivan,

The TP 4070 will work just fine all the way up to 50,000 rpm. I thought that they were good to 60,000 and have a couple set up for that. I haven't had a problem out of them yet.

Thank you!

I also have a question about voltage. I like the 1650kv 8s model. But according to the manual, the maximum voltage is 30.8V when 8s is 33.6V when fully charged. How will this motor work at 33.6v?
It seems to me that the 1350kV 9s version will not have enough rpm at 8s.

1.jpg

[donhuff]

I would not worry about using the 1650 kv one on 8s. With full packs, that's 55440rpm. That's not a lot over the rpm redline, but in reality, when running on the water and proping to a reasonable level which would be 80% of that unloaded rpm. That would be only 45,000rpm, well below the redline. That's where I would prop it for heat racing. For a SAW run, you can go way below that 80% to get closer to the horsepower peak which is at 50% of max unloaded rpm. The motor will get hot on a run like that, but will cool down during deceleration and turn around.
That 20% rpm reduction gets the voltage down to around 27 volts. Which is just theoretical of course, but real world results that we have seen are pretty close to that.

I'm glad you posted TP's "chart of confusion" I believe most people look at this don't really understand some of the info. And I think this is where the phrase "TPs are amp hogs" comes from. If anyone has a question about these spec charts, please ask. I'll see if I can help with an answer.

[Ivan Kozyakov]

I would not worry about using the 1650 kv one on 8s. With full packs, that's 55440rpm. That's not a lot over the rpm redline, but in reality, when running on the water and proping to a reasonable level which would be 80% of that unloaded rpm. That would be only 45,000rpm, well below the redline. That's where I would prop it for heat racing. For a SAW run, you can go way below that 80% to get closer to the horsepower peak which is at 50% of max unloaded rpm. The motor will get hot on a run like that, but will cool down during deceleration and turn around.
That 20% rpm reduction gets the voltage down to around 27 volts. Which is just theoretical of course, but real world results that we have seen are pretty close to that.

I'm glad you posted TP's "chart of confusion" I believe most people look at this don't really understand some of the info. And I think this is where the phrase "TPs are amp hogs" comes from. If anyone has a question about these spec charts, please ask. I'll see if I can help with an answer.

Thank you very much for your advice. I bought the regular version TP4060 today.

[fweasel]

I ran a 1750kV 4060 on 8S in a SAW cat no issues, despite their voltage limit on the chart.

[Ivan Kozyakov]

I ran a 1750kV 4060 on 8S in a SAW cat no issues, despite their voltage limit on the chart.

What ESC did you use on this setup? My weak point now is Swordfish 240A.
I decided to start with 1350kv 8s measuring the rpm and temperature. If everything is Ok I will remount the motor to 1500 kW or more.

[donhuff]

Ivan,

If you'll use the Castle XLXII, you won't have any trouble . That esc is hard to beat. I have pulled 674 amps on 4s SAW passes.

[Ivan Kozyakov]

Ivan,

If you'll use the Castle XLXII, you won't have any trouble . That esc is hard to beat. I have pulled 674 amps on 4s SAW passes.

Wow! 674A? How is this possible?

I like this ESC, but according to the specifications its operating current is only 180A (which is strange), and it is quite heavy.

[fweasel]

What ESC did you use on this setup? My weak point now is Swordfish 240A.
I decided to start with 1350kv 8s measuring the rpm and temperature. If everything is Ok I will remount the motor to 1500 kW or more.

I ran a 250A MGM, and it was really hot after only a few passes. When I re-rig that boat, I'll put in a Castle Hydra X8S. The XLX2 would be a little tight and more headroom than I really need.

[Ivan Kozyakov]

I ran a 250A MGM, and it was really hot after only a few passes. When I re-rig that boat, I'll put in a Castle Hydra X8S. The XLX2 would be a little tight and more headroom than I really need.

I like Castle ESCs, but how can I understand their real maximum current? For example, Hydra X8S according to the specification is only up to 140A.

[donhuff]

I wasn't aware that they listed a max amps rating.

The X8S will easily do 270-280 continuous and I've hit 330A once, but it gave me a warning that if I continued at that level, permanent damage will result.

The XLX2 I,ve done 6 laps at 375A and no problem.

[fweasel]

I like Castle ESCs, but how can I understand their real maximum current? For example, Hydra X8S according to the specification is only up to 140A.

Real world experience from people racing them like Don and Tyler.

[tbonemcniel]

I wasn't aware that they listed a max amps rating.

The X8S will easily do 270-280 continuous and I've hit 330A once, but it gave me a warning that if I continued at that level, permanent damage will result.

The XLX2 I,ve done 6 laps at 375A and no problem.

Same here. The X8S is just fine if you're gonna stay below 300A. If you're gonna play north of 300A, get the XLX2. In our club, guys have made 6 laps at 475A and the XLX2 is happy to oblige.

[Ivan Kozyakov]

Good news. I will order one of these ESCs for next season.