Claiming /Buy out rule

[IGGY_357]

As a way to keep or put the Jennie back in the bottle. The idea of a buy-out option for the motors, of the top 3 boats, in heat races in the limited classes has been a point of decision. With rewinds or modified motors starting to become more available or DIY. Thought the idea was worth posting. What's a fair fee? Is it a good idea? Maybe nobody is using modified motors in limited classes. In my humble opinion I feel the limited classes are a way to be able to race more boats on a lower budget and the best class to introduce new boaters to. Just curious to see what others think.

[Fluid]

This has beed discussed ad nauseum in the plethora of past limited motor rule threads. While it may have merit, I wouldn’t want to go through all the past hand-wringing. But feel free….



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[HTVboats]

While the class discussion keeps coming up tells me there are probably newer racers who want some commonsense discussion of the class they have started racing. Being the largest group of FE racing it should still have merit as without P/limited officially or unofficially FE racing is barely on the map. With many rule options, size, weight, battery, esc and so on the basic premise seems to be costs first, then availability. A buy out to limit price on a motor puts the power in the hands of any and all racers. You think someone is pushing the envelope you put up the fee. No inspection no hassle for the event officials. Either take the buyout or take your points down for that class. You have a $200 motor and ESC to handle the amps how long are you going to race it and get say $100 for the motor? I will sell you my $50-$80 motors all day long for that and keep new ones in my boat.
Again rules are never perfect for everyone but maybe addressing cost for a class that most people enter for that reason makes sense. To answer Issac's question right now $100 would work and could be adjusted for inflation in the future.

Mic

[TRUCKPULL]

This was brought up years ago when we ran brushed motors (SS1)
these were bushing motors, with unaccusable Brushes or Commutators.
I would invest 36 to 48 hours of running in these motors at 3 to 5 volts
Cleaning them every 4 to 6 hours and reoiling the bushings.
Then after the first race I was expected to sell my motor for the same price that I paid for it.

Will not happen and never will happen.

[obrien]

its sad that this even has become a topic. Im trying to understand why guys are going to ruin the plimited classes with either high end expensive motors or have custom rewinds done, forcing them to have to run much more expensive esc's if you want that kind of setup, go run full p. I have no problem with it at this point. if someone wants to buy my motor for $100 that I paid 60 or 70 for, go ahead. Ill be happy to order another one.

[TRUCKPULL]

A rewind for racing is the same KV as original. Only now it is better quality wire, so it will last a lot longer.
I sent Don a motor that was burned up, He rewound it for me (cheaper then New) It runs the same as before,
I know for 2 lap and SAW racing they are playing with some wild winds in custom cans, but those motors will never work for a 6 lap race.
It is like trying to us a TP - CM motor for longer then 10 seconds at a time with out letting it cool down in-between.

Larry

[longballlumber]

but those motors will never work for a 6 lap race.

I don't think "never" is an appropriate term Larry. As a matter of fact, I would argue the same motors have/are being used in heat racing and TT with prop changes.

[T.S.Davis]

Well if we're going to do a buy back.........let's not draw the line at motors.

Someone took the time to learn to rewind a motor and dog gone it that isn't fair to me. This is the thinking. Or bought one rewound. Whatever. Same thing.

Brian Buass took the time to design his own outrigger, learned how to make the molds for it, laid them up, adjusts his strut with feeler gauges to get it just the way he wants it. Cuz he can. Cuz he has the knowledge. Raced em and won plenty. Set a bunch of records. Now dog gone it.......that's not fair to me. I can't do all that. He should have to give that setup up for X number of dollars. Too much?

Some know how to modify a prop to produce exactly what they need for x,y,z and dog gone it that ain't fair to me. Heck some of the props we all know and love were engineered over the phone with Schaeffer. We can't have that kind of creativity. That's not fair. Confiscate that prop. Here's 25 bucks for you to buy another.

How about a modified one of kind Whiplash that's ultra light, has a one of a kind canopy, and was built around the exact space needed for the exact batteries I want to run? Is that fair to the guy that doesn't know how to do it himself? Taking that for a price from me sounds excessive but it's not really different than the guy that learned to machine his own hardware, or lays up his own bagged carbon canopy, or hardens his own props, or learned to rewind a motor. It's a skill they took the time to learn.

We're not going to be able to pin limited down like IROC racing. Building the better mouse trap simply IS racing. We can't and in my opinion shouldn't be trying to legislate away guys creativity and/or dedication.

My 12 cents worth.

[Doby]

If I can't win with COTS items then its someone else's fault.

[IGGY_357]

To me, it appeared the spirit of the limited rules in the past, was for off the shelf non modified motors. If the reason was cost of the motors or to try to create IROC style racing, I have no idea. I look at the class as low budget racing where setup could be everything.

[HTVboats]

Limited classes are out there and working. I think a rewind with better wire and better bearings will give a minor power increase, What is happening is 36X74 or larger motors can be cut down or rotors transplanted into 36x60 cans. This adds $100-200 for a motor and now you need a larger ESC to handle the amps.
So we just go full "P" and make it more expensive all around with a 34" hull limit to level things. Not going to bring new people in easily.
Or add a rotor limit complicating things for after race inspections.
Bear in mind you DO NOT have to sell you motor if you are attached to it financially or spent hours messaging it, You won't enter that ringer motor in too many races and get no points. If just beating people for fun is your thing shooting fish in a barrel go for it.
A motor buy out does not take anything away from experienced racers who know hulls and prop and hours of testing. Or just winning with your wallet is better?
Mic

[T.S.Davis]

How about winning with my brain? OR how about winning with my talent? Or maybe my build skill. My son can't really build a boat himself so he gets a ton of tech support from a semi-coherent old fart fer free. Is he buying wins? What do you suppose it would cost him to purchase the expertise he gets?

You guys are zooming in on the motor when there are 100's of other things that a guy can learn to be faster. OR another way of thinking, there are a 100 things a guy can pay someone smarter than them to figure out. If you don't have the skills yourself stay home?

Just thought if this too. A number of the current oval limited records were set with boats built by one guy, powered by another guy, and driven by a NASCAR world champion. I don't have access to a nascar world champion driver with the reflexes of cat to drive my boats. Should we do a buy out on Martin?

For the record, because the proposal passed through my hands and District 2 back in 2009. "Limited" was not ever entry level. It was not ever intended to be off the shelf racing. It was supposed to be accessible for a newer guys but still challenging enough for experienced racers to bother with it. That's why it still has the highest entry numbers. It has a little for everyone.

If my district had a buy out policy I would simply not run that class anymore. At that point we would rely solely on new racers. New racers amount to one or two guys per year in most locations. Our numbers are and will continue to be low. Primarily I believe because our run times are low in comparison to gas and because getting our stuff wrong often results in crunchy stuff inside the boat. The entries which have served us so well will be severed and the class will die.

Before someone whips out the "limited and P are the same speed" utterance........save it. That's a lie. I have the numbers and brand new guy should not be running P anything.

[Doug Smock]

Marked safe from the 11th or 12th? annual P LOLimited infighting/discussions.

Isaac,

Maybe you can glean something from this to approach the motor issue that doesn't exist.

https://roarracing.com/downloads/201...aim_Policy.pdf


Good luck and I'll see ya at the pond fellas!

D.

[ezhitz]

Is there a kv limit with the 36x60 motor size? I didn’t see it in the rules.

[T.S.Davis]

Is there a kv limit with the 36x60 motor size? I didn’t see it in the rules.

No there isn't.

[Doby]

Just thought if this too. A number of the current oval limited records were set with boats built by one guy, powered by another guy, and driven by a NASCAR world champion. I don't have access to a nascar world champion driver with the reflexes of cat to drive my boats.

.

You mean Bill???

[TRUCKPULL]

You mean Bill???

A - HOLE


Larry

[Doby]

A - HOLE


Larry

..............

[jaike5]

Holly cow , this spec motor thing is dead but won't lay down!!

[HTVboats]

Bear in mind rules are never perfect and ask yourself a question. Is FE model boat racing better off with NAMBA which has addressed limited or the IMPBA approach to just not have a limited class?
Mic

[donhuff]

OH BOY, pour some more gas on that fire Mic!!!

[HTVboats]

Not to worry Don, someone will be along soon with an extinguisher!

[T.S.Davis]

Yeah, I had a lengthy response written for this and deleted it. A healthy conversation like this is misconstrued as "major problems".

I've been told twice now that NAMBA racers are up in arms. "Major problems" teching these. All two dimensions. Was annoyed and have access so I checked. Not true....again. According to NAMBA brass there isn't a mass discourse regarding the rule set regardless of efforts to paint such a picture. The only discourse they have heard is from IMPBA guys and only at time trials.