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Thread: P-Limited Rules

  1. #1
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    Default P-Limited Rules

    Regarding a "Rules Proposal"; I have been away from FE racing for almost 12 years now. I decided last year to get back in - unfortunately Covid had other ideas for the racing scene; the border situation as well.

    I did a great deal of reading to get back up to speed on current technology and to see who is still racing FE not only in D1 but throughout both countries. It seems from what I have read the P-Limited classes are very popular for a number of reasons. Certainly NAMBA has embraced the classes with inclusion of a rule set which arguably is the simplest way to identify what is or isn't compliant with the rules.

    Despite what my sanity check may suggest I do - I am willing to take on proposing a set of rules which 'hopefully' after almost a decade of debate would see the Limited class be recognized on a one year trial leading to inclusion into the IMPBA rulebook. At this point I need to see an expression of interest - meaning I need 5 supporting members within my District (District 1) to support this. I understand that said support would require 'seeing' the proposal. Please send me via Messenger an expression of interest.

    On another note: to all the FE racers in Ontario - message me via Messenger about this post and what you think is needed to return FE racing in Ontario to a competitive, supported community.

    Thanks - Steve

    PS - Please send me your thoughts via Messenger; I do not want this thread to end up an open debate on Limited vs full on open classes. That debate has been flogged to death. What cannot be debated is the popularity of the P-Limited classes. As a returning member to the racing scene (2022 at some point) - we should be looking for ways to increase participation at local club, regional and national levels. When I see entries for IMPBA events that have included P-Limited classes (according to NAMBA) rules and those classes are filled - it tells me something.
    Reesor Boat Works

  2. #2
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    Hmmm... It will be interesting to see how many people are into actual FE racing up here. Lots like to fun run and speed run but, FE racers are hard to come by.

    Hopefully I'll get a few boats tested I built in the last 2-3 years, this year,maybe to the Cam-Am if I can get disciplined enough.

    Have you built anything yet Steve?
    Nortavlag Bulc

  3. #3
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    Hi Ray,

    Yes - I recently finished an all carbon S hydro SAW boat; and I am currently rigging up a modified KEP's for P Hydro. Also in the works (parts ordered/coming) - Black Pearl for P Limited Sport Hydro; GP310 for P Sport Hydro; P Limited Hydro and looking into a P Limited mono. Unsure how many of the P Limited hulls I will have completed on a given timeline. I am hopeful to make the MI Cup this year, and the CanAm.
    Reesor Boat Works

  4. #4
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    Cool. I can't cross the border unless I juice up. Maybe one day when sanity returns, lol...

    Good to see you getting things done and I hope to see you at the pond sometime, Alliston, etc...
    Nortavlag Bulc

  5. #5
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    Hi Ali. The PLTD class is really close to my heart. The new rules while they're simpler they miss something, it is now much more expensive we?re going faster and it cost more money. It's a love-hate relationship now. Since I?ve had a lot to do with the inception of the class, I feel reasonably comfortable to make these statements. While I like being able to modify and make faster motors I think there should have been a cap on the price on the motors. It used to be you can go out and spend $50-$100 on your motor and go racing Now it's $160-$200 and you also need a very good speed control to be highly competitive. I do like this and think it should continue yet I still feel that there needs to be a PLTD class that has a dollar cap on it.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyatBBY View Post
    Hi Ali. The PLTD class is really close to my heart. The new rules while they're simpler they miss something, it is now much more expensive we?re going faster and it cost more money. It's a love-hate relationship now. Since I?ve had a lot to do with the inception of the class, I feel reasonably comfortable to make these statements. While I like being able to modify and make faster motors I think there should have been a cap on the price on the motors. It used to be you can go out and spend $50-$100 on your motor and go racing Now it's $160-$200 and you also need a very good speed control to be highly competitive. I do like this and think it should continue yet I still feel that there needs to be a PLTD class that has a dollar cap on it.
    I believe a cap on cost would work well. Simple claiming rule. At the end of the race your motor can be claimed by anyone that raced in that class, say for $100. If you want to keep your motor you forfeit your points and take a DNF.
    The 60mm can limit with a rotor length limit added would work but require tear downs. Added work for the hosting club that rarely happens. For "National" events or records it should be required.
    Mic

    Mic Halbrehder
    IMPBA 8656
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  7. #7
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    Price cap wont work.

    If I injure a motor it costs me $4 for the magnet wire to fix it. Maybe. So we need to put a dollar value on my time and on what I was able to learn. What's knowledge worth?

    You could make the same argument about hulls. If I spend a whole off season working with Pete to design some crazy prototype, get it cut, build it myself out of G10 and mahogany, maybe have a custom one off turn fin made to my specifications, maybe a one of kind knife blade rudder................what's that setup worth at that point? Again....time and knowledge.


    A racer is fast for two reasons. The first way you get fast is practice. Lap after lap after lap. Race cars in the winter maybe. Then turn lapslapslapslaps as soon as the water thaws. Second way to get fast is to invest time in your setup. Do something nobody thought of. This is the undeniable truth of every form of racing. Spend the time and get fast. For that effort, a racers setup should be taken away? Inspiring. Where do you draw the line with that thinking? Props? A polished shaft? How about a drive dog that's been trued?

    Example:

    "Hey, that guy has a square drive......I don't even know how to do that..........I'll bet that is friction free and draws no almost zero amps........well, he can't race that anymore. There, now it's fair again" The "out of the box" thinker will find a new hobby in no time.

    Good luck Steve. I wasn't able to crack that walnut.
    Noisy person

  8. #8
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    LOL Terry!

    I take solace on this idea to try another proposal when I read the 'Thoughts on the Stock Class rules' thread on IW.

    People are passionate about certain topics...this is one of them.

    One of the first threads I read was: http://https://forums.offshoreelectr...-David-Newland

    David is one the most talented drivers I have raced against in FE which contributed to his racing record. That being said, what makes him stand apart is his preparation...second to none. Equipment alone doesn't win races. The hot motor of the month doesn't win races. $$$ doesn't win races.

    I've tried everything at some point in my racing history, and what helped me achieve some measure of success was hard work. Terry mentions it, others mention it. It boils down to TIME. Time in the shop building, tweaking, working your props; Time on the water testing and tuning. Time on the course running laps in ALL water conditions, and most importantly TIME in traffic - knowing your boat how it handles water conditions in race water; where to run (lane) especially if chasing down the boat ahead of you, where to attempt a pass, and when to use the 'throttle'.

    I have over the years spent ridiculous money on the best equipment from around the world only to beaten by a smarter driver. Young and old alike have schooled me from Ed Hughey, Jim Phelps, Jeff Stevens, Doug Twaits Jr., Dick Crowe, Brian Vega, Alan Nayman, Howard Tucker, Paul Pachmeyer, Dennis Whitt, Randy Naylor and yes David Newland (and so many others, and forgive me if I didn't mention you) and kids half my age. I expect the same during this return to racing.

    I learned from every one of these guys and expect to learn more from the new generation and old-timers alike - it's why we do this. It's up to US as racers to propose the best set of inclusive rules.

    Finally - this may all be mute Terry...two days after posting this I have heard from one paid member from District 1 that raced/races FE that would support a rules proposal.
    I need 5 people 'within' my District to express support!

    I am good with whatever becomes of this, however I would truly like to see a ruleset for IMPBA that mirrors NAMBA.
    Last edited by Reesor@work; 01-11-2022 at 03:46 PM.
    Reesor Boat Works

  9. #9
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    Getting it proposed is the easiest part of the riddle Steve.

    I'm just a racer these days. Life is pretty complicated all by itself of late. However, I do still hear from guys and try to listen to what guys are saying. Helping guys with questions from.....well....all over the planet. That kind of thing. Is there hand wringing over the current NAMBA set? Not a lot that I've heard. Obviously I don't know everybody that races FE. A few though. Guys are concerned about cost as Randy described but that's so hard to quantify as I described. I get Randy's love/hate comment. Like a knife that feels good as it goes but yer still freak'n bleeding like a fish. Car racers talk like that about 17.5 blinky buggy. Takes a lot of "extra" to be a contender even though there's a motor limit. One click on the rear pills ad you're an also ran.

    I've not raced a $200 motor in limited yet. Ty raced a custom borrowed Neu at the last Cup race we hosted but I don't think he won with it. That might have been the NATS......can't remember. His current boat has a 2k Dyno rewound in my basement with factory bearings. Our crap up here isn't exactly slow. I don't think anyway.

    For reference, the tenth scale guys have been experimenting with the limited motors in their boats. The motor list for 10th scale has shriveled up so they had to start testing an alternative. Haven't heard much about their progress. I'll ask. MMEU will likely run 10th this way over the next season. We talked about limiting Vintage to 1700kv but it's not something we really want to tech (annoying) so we may not worry about it. Vintage boats really do have a built in speed limiter. Like pushing kites that would rather leave the pond than turn.
    Last edited by T.S.Davis; 01-11-2022 at 03:28 PM.
    Noisy person

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reesor@work View Post
    I need 5 people 'within' my District to express support!
    The resume of each signer will be questioned Steve. Just preparing you. I used just IMPBA district members and was chastised for it. It's not in the book but is apparently a "thing". So on the next proposal I included 4 certified IMPBA contest directors that were FE only guys. Between them they had won multiple national championships, set multiple national records, and set multiple world records in both organizations. Their support carried no additional gravitas with the BOD.
    Noisy person

  11. #11
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    Doesn't it occur that the only true way to create a limitation is for the it to be the battery capacity? With P-ltd records now almost the same as full P due to mod windings in stock cans, it is the amount of power available that creates the only limitation. If you had a max of 6000mah instead of 10,000 mah there would be a limit on how much power, therefore speeds, costs to a class etc. Limiting the motors that could be used has failed over time, limiting the can size has a fail, in that those who can mod, or afford to mod a motor gain a massive power advantage.
    It always comes back to who has the biggest checkbook, or spare time/knowledge can out compete what should be an entry level but competitive class that depends most on driving ability/skill and boat setup. Classes that should be for fun and getting people hooked on the hobby. As soon as there are those that are unbeatable and cannot be reasonably competed against people lose interest.
    Just my 0.02 from afar.
    NZMPBA 2013, 2016 Open Electric Champion. NZMPBA 2016 P Offshore Champion.
    2016 SUHA Q Sport Hydro Hi Points Champion.
    BOPMPBC Open Mono, Open Electric Champion.

  12. #12
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    First, I'm a little tired of the myth that "limited is just as fast as P so why have limited?" So I dug up the time trial numbers and put them in a spread sheet. Turns out "myth" was kind. Only one class was close. 2 lap mono and it took two guys to do it. One to build it.......one that's a better driver. Not weird or unusual. Heck, I build my kids boats. I'll be making him build cars for me. One of those 2 lap records for limited was built by one guy, powered up by another, and driven by a third who was a NASCAR champion. Talk about hand/eye coordination. Cuz that's what happens at the local puddle. Sure everybody races against Martin Truex Jr.

    here's the real numbers

    actual records Jan 2022.pdf


    The guy that invests the most time into their setup and spends the time to learn to drive it will rise to the top. Every time. Any attempt to legislate that out of racing will fail.

    Some form of P racing with a motor limitation has existed since 2003......I think. I believe Randy and Dan Chase proposed that back in the day. 700 motors then. The proposal for what was the first "P Limited" rendition with the motor list was penned by Dave Newland back in early 2009....ish. Maybe 2008 even. It was based on what many of us were already doing with multiple clubs around the country. That proposal came to me and was then passed through our club and to District 2 while I was director.

    For the record and so nobody is confused. At no point in limited's history was it supposed to be an "entry level" class. Not back in 2003. Not in 2009. Not in 2022. Purpose was and still is easy to get into and fast enough to attract experienced racers. We were leaning on the RTR boats in the beginning because they made it even easier to get in. Most of those don't exist anymore so "store bought" boat is rare. Was unheard of in 2003 too an was still the most attended class of the times.

    If we're going to try to stop anyone from having the type of advantage inherent with experience we have to tell the vets to just not race. A racer that looks at the bottom of the boat and sees why it's slow will always be able to do so. We can't legislate that away. New guys don't show up to support a "new guy" class. Not in the quantities needed to make heats. Been there done that. Then if they do there's nobody in the class to show them the way. You have to teach them how to race, teach them how to get fast, and bring them along. "Shave this, trim that, sharpen those, sand that with 400 grit. See what I did to my boat here?"

    This formula works. Is it perfect? Probably not but it still puts more people on the stand than any other FE power level in the history of either US organization. Are a few paralyzed by "if's and but's"? Completely and utterly.
    Noisy person

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter A View Post
    max of 6000mahr.
    Nobody runs 10k. A few will carry 6600 but it's for weight and not amps.
    Noisy person

  14. #14
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    Here's my 2cents,

    I have 4 boats (twin zonda, bj29 v3, motley crue and a unnamed hydro that was given to me that I have not run at this time) all are stock and other than props. I run the local ponds and occasionally run into a fellow boaters.

    Would like to start competing but am too far to practice on a "course" when times are available (about an hour is the closest) Also, having have limited income on what I can do to help my boat to be the best it can be.

    I know practice makes perfect, but "perfect" practice makes perfect. But if you don't have time or place to practice when time is available is a problem, what to do?

    I have talked to a few people in the area about this and most said that "why should I try to compete, too many people have more $ than I have for better boats and have more experience"

    Went to a race and and was asked why didn't I race and just watch, my response "I don't want to be humiliated" the person walked away laughing.

    I Think there should be some classes based on experience with stock boats be implicated?? I wouldn't think of racing against someone with 3 or more yrs over me (not a fair fight)

    I think that would be incentive to get more people (younger generation) involved?

  15. #15
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    We tried that John.

    MMEU had an RTR based class. Everyone had the exact same boat, the exact same batteries, even had "hand out" props that were all machined by the same prop guy. You were allowed to paint the boat, sand the bottom, adjust the strut and tabs and that was about it. Any other changes we found necessary to make the boats work had to be approved by the group that raced the class. The boats all ran similar.

    We even had a deal cooked up with Aquacraft and Larry's RC. Larry would sell the boat, the correct batteries, and an un-sharpened version of the "hand out" prop for a rock bottom price. Then AQ provided support for the racers if anything broke unexpectedly. AQ also provided an incredibly cool trophy made by Mike Z. himself. It looked like a giant AQ Gold can motor. Was very slick.

    Really did seem like we were onto something. It did okay for a few summers. Then the experienced guys got bored. Heck, some of the new guys got bored. I can't say for sure why that was. Might have been the speed. Might also be that as you gain experience........the tweaking is what becomes most fascinating. You couldn't do too much of that. Might have been that but I still can't say I know for sure why it failed but the new guys couldn't carry the class on their own. We didn't have enough to make heats and it died.
    Noisy person

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    First, I'm a little tired of the myth that "limited is just as fast as P so why have limited?" So I dug up the time trial numbers and put them in a spread sheet. Turns out "myth" was kind. Only one class was close. 2 lap mono and it took two guys to do it. One to build it.......one that's a better driver.
    Ding... Ding... Ding... We have a winner! If your full P set-up is no faster than a P-Limited set-up then you need to up your game! I know a guy who can extract a ton of power out of a 37 x 60 can, but like it or not... the can size is a physical limitation that does not exist in full P. The reason you see the P-Limited records going lower and lower in oval and higher and higher in SAW is because there is a core group of ppl actively pursuing them. If those same ppl decide to devote the same amount of time, effort, and energy to upping the full P records you would see the gap start to widen again.

    I'll leave the rule debates to the politicians. The simple fact of the matter is the same ppl are going to win no matter what you do to the rules...

    Later,
    Lamar
    Last edited by HUFFRACING; 01-13-2022 at 10:25 AM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnc View Post
    I have talked to a few people in the area about this and most said that "why should I try to compete, too many people have more $ than I have for better boats and have more experience"
    That's where I was at with my son when he started racing cars. "How the heck could he ever compete? The stock class is full of guys with 20+ years of experience. There's no freak'n way." He was multiple laps off the pace. Breaking crap every time we went to the track. Ahhhhhhhh. I spent more time fixing than he did racing. He just wouldn't give it up despite my whining. Now he has three separate car sponsors and is at least a threat every time he hits the track. Oh and I don't do any wrenching for him on cars. BONUS!

    The only way to get good at racing is to jump in. Ask for help if you need it. Sometimes I don't wait for guys to ask. I'll just interject. I'm different that way. Medium grade annoying. I'll take a guys boat to my pit to put on my setup board to check things. I do try my best not to offend them in the process but I don't always manage that part. Most real clubs are like this. They wont just let a guy flounder indefinitely. The hobby is too small for that.

    If you run a club (any kind) and aren't doing this for guys you need to find someone that can do it. The whole group has more fun when they're on the same lap.
    Noisy person

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