NAMBA April Time Trial Monday 5th and Tuesday 6th 2021 Huntsville, Alabama

[THE REAL GRIM]

Hi everyone,
please enter the Easter NAMBA Time Trial event on the NAMBA District 5 website www.nambadistrict5.com under the shopping cart.
That way I can get you set up in the computer. There is a section in there to let me know what classes you will be running.
The fee for the 2 day NAMBA event will be $25.00
Thank you, Kim 1

[THE REAL GRIM]

Hello,
Congratulations to all Record Setters this last Monday - Tuesday,
There were 15 records set in NAMBA on Monday and Tuesday the weather was good a little breezy at times but everyone had a good time. I would like to thank, Mark Bullard, David Hall, for helping with the Time Trial and all the other people that helped with the set-up and tear down for those 2 days.
The help was very much appreciated I would like to also thank Mark Bullard for the BBQ, HOT and Regular fried munchies and Bill Zuber for the Chess Pie it was all yummy!!!!!!!

Thank you again,
Mark and Kim Grim


David Hall
SAW
1/2 A MONO
Sec: 4.306
MPH: 52.25

Martin Truex Jr.
2-LAP
1/2 A HYDRO
Sec: 18.053
MPH: 66.470

Martin Truex Jr.
SAW
A HYDRO
Sec: 1.898
MPH: 118.545

Martin Truex Jr.
2-LAP
B HYDRO
Sec: 15.614
MPH: 76.854

Chris Grim
2-LAP
A HYDRO
Sec: 16.494
MPH: 72.753

Rick Grim.
SAW
GAS TUNNEL
Sec: 3.056
MPH: 73.626

Kim Grim
2-LAP
SPORT 60
Sec: 23.569
MPH: 50.914

Huff./Truex Jr.
SAW
P LIMITED MONO
Sec: 3.149
MPH: 71.451

Huff./Truex Jr.
2-LAP
P LIMITED MONO
Sec: 27.461
MPH: 43.694

Huff./Truex Jr.
2-LAP
P LIMITED CATAMARAN
Sec: 26.610
MPH: 45.095

Huff./Truex Jr.
SAW
P LIMITED CATAMARAN
Sec: 3.161
MPH: 71.180

Huff./Truex Jr.
2-LAP
P CATAMARAN
Sec: 26.814
MPH: 44.752

Huff./Truex Jr.
2-LAP
P LIMITED OFFSHORE
Sec: 27.281
MPH: 43.98

Huff./Truex Jr.
2-LAP
P OFFSHORE
Sec: 26.178
MPH: 45.840

Mike Tally
2-LAP
A OPC TUNNEL
Sec: 28.784
MPH: 41.690

Mike Tally
2-LAP
B OB HYDRO
Sec: 29.805
MPH: 40.261

[T.S.Davis]

Holy crap

[photohoward1]

Spec? Custom wound Motors? Sure.

[HTVboats]

Congrats! Have to tip my hat to Don (AMPDADDY). The sky isn't falling for P/L it's just a rocket into a new frontier with Martin doing what he does best.
Mic

[T.S.Davis]

Spec? Custom wound Motors? Sure.

There are no "spec" classes.

[photohoward1]

P limited? Limited to what? Pocketbook? Wiring skill?
I know the size thing but the intention of the class was to limit cost too?

I know it?s not easy to get these records and driver skill is a big thing. I would expect Martin to be better than most if not all.

But come on. Unobtanium!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[T.S.Davis]

I know the size thing but the intention of the class was to limit cost too?

You can check the rule book but I'm certain there has never been a mention of cost.

I've had this conversation recently. Wasn't an argument. Worth sharing some thinks.

The limit is the size of the motor, the voltage, and the length of the hull. Period. That's it. The only difference from 2009 to now is that the motor list was replaced with a can size. Can size because no list will hold up. We've already proven this.

Here's a list of things you can do to find speed that some have the skills to do and others might pay someone with skill to do for them. There's more I'm sure:

Sharpen & balance propellers
Custom prop machining
Square drives
Scratch built hulls
Hulls designed specifically for the class
Machining the drive dog for less drag
Polishing the drive shaft
Polishing the inside of the stuffing tube
Blocking and blue printing the ride surfaces of your hull
Bias sanding
Sharpening all edges of ride surfaces
The lowest resistance cells you can find ($$$ same as when we bought matched Nimh really)
ESC's with lower resistance
Laser cut turn fins bent on a precision curve jig bendy thingy and sharpened until you could slay a dragon with em
Rudder sharpening
Custom machined rudders to be thinner for less drag
Rudders with no water pickups
Copper inserts to shim connectors to the tiny wires that come from these small motors
Oh! finding a thinner lubricant....but not too thin

I once had ML cut me a custom Wildthing in an effort to shave weight. Mike opened up the cutouts on all the bulkheads for me and framed it from 1/16" ply. Super light build. Pain in the a$$ it was so flimsy. That hull is one of one on earth. It never really worked well. Failed experiment. Not everyone can build something like that so I suppose it was totally unobtanium.

All those things I listed require either the skills to do them or the dollars to obtain them. I suppose you also need to know who to connect with. This has always been the case even when there was a motor list. The guys that could tune or buy tuning won more often than not.

Mike Ball described limited as having a "perception" problem of late. Not arguing that point because I think he's right. I just don't feel it's fair. That perception being that once you open up the can and replace the crap wire from china with good wire because you have the skill to do so..........nowwww it's wallet racing?

Don designed, molded, and lays up his own hulls. Mere mortals CAN do that but will they? What do we suppose the real dollar value is for a guy to take all those steps? I know a mold here in town by Sancuer Composites is $3k. How do you "limit" someones skills, creativity, imagination? Pete has been working on those Pearl hulls for years. I've built and test umpteen of them now. Not even sure how many actually. Is there a dollar value that can be applied to Pete's time, my time, all the times they didn't quite work how we wanted and ended up in the bone yard?

All that said......"limited" isn't what it was in 2009. In 2009 we weren't concerned with costs necessarily but we absolutely were trying to have a landing pad (pond?) for the RTR market. Proboat and Aquacraft were both making similar things to plop right into it. In 2021 there just isn't a large stable of RTR drop ins.

The can size is a limit regardless of "perception" to the contrary.

[HTVboats]

I would not get to wound up on unobtanium. Don has learned by working and testing and does motors at reasonable cost. The Cat Martin drove is a production Vision (Shawn Junker) I lent to Don to break records with that we set and I knew could be lowered. Good motor, ESC, hull set up and prop, with a skilled driver. That's what records are. the best of the best.
P/L survives, will evolve and improve and be raced all over the country. As Terry said the can limit replaced a "motor list" that was stagnant. Is there a better system???
If the goal is cost put a real dollar limit and a claiming rule. Until then build and perfect your skills to keep up with traffic.
Mic

[Doug Smock]

"P Limited" went away with any ESC, the motor list, and now, dimensions fellas. Dang near full P speeds, that was the goal right? Well done!! Please don't say the Limited rules discussions will start up again.. Folks just need to join the motor of the month club..

[T.S.Davis]

There was never an ESC in the rule set Doug.

The goal was not P speeds Doug. The goal was a "limit". Truth is that the motor was always always always the only limit. See my list.

If anybody can out run Mike or Tyler with a limited motor they deserve a medal.

We're not really having the limited debate again. There is no point. I was merely acknowledging the perception issue and that it makes zero sense to a logical person.

[Doug Smock]

You're right Terry. The ESC was a District thing in the beginning, you know RTRs, any dummy can do it, introduction to FE.
I don't think there is a perception that there is no limit.
It's just that Don has been hard at it for three years(?) and hasn't found the limit yet. How are you doing with your motor builds?

[T.S.Davis]

I haven't had to build any motors since my first handful. They don't die under normal racing conditions. Time trials may be tougher on gear. I did bake a 1y on Saturday. I didn't realize it was in the boat from the fall. First run of the year. DOH!

If you put a AQ or PB motor in a hand built Whiplash......is that RTR? Or a JAE? Or a Stealth? Or an Orca for that matter? What's RTR about a Cyberstorm with a Proboat 2000? Nothing. The class was never RTR. It was however a decent place for a new RTR guy to drop in to racing and learn.

A better debate might be........if "limited" is so close to full P speeds.......what do we need P for? It's a ton more expensive, same sized boats, the setups are prone to failure, and availability is nil. You will be building a P boat or you will not be racing a P boat. Especially for a class like P sport. Then on top, the guys that run full P rarely show up to field heats. So......why have it? Then again, I suppose if participation were used as the gauge for classes there would be "limited" and nothing else. Think of all the classes we never see. Scale.....gone. N classes.....what for? P once in a while if you have some guys in a pocket interested. Q is even more rare. S and T....yea right. Talk about deep pocket racing. Been there done that.

But limited.....well limited is the devil.....accept those guys show up.

[Doug Smock]

Oh I expect your driver stand to be overflowing with guys Terry. Will you be hooking them up with the "motor of the month" so they can be competitive?

I could argue, (but I won't here) that with the Limited classes so close to P there is no longer a need for "Limited".

Anyway, you have at it. I just dropped in to say Congratulations to the record setters. And giggle a little.

[HTVboats]

As Sgt Friday says "Just the facts maamm"
Lets look at some D-13 history
Atlanta Spring Nats 2013 entries:
Gas 55, Nitro 125, Open 33 and FE 6 (P/L tunnels)

Moving forward to current 2021 ATL Spring Nats entries.
Gas 88, Nitro 63, Open 28, and FE with 36X60 (Namba rules) 44 P/L and 21 P&Q. Covid may have reduced some numbers but even with Doug pooh poohing limited it seems to be growing. I don't think you will be writing an Limited obituary any time soon.

Down here we had to cancel plans this spring for an FE event at Brandon. So going back a year we had a stand alone FE 2 day race with 165 boats, 61 P-Q and open, 8 Q/limited and 96 P/limited 36X60.
To me it sure looks like P/L is where FE roots are growing. 36X60 and a ROF from Atlanta won't kill it.
Mic
Retired Old Fart also.

[Doug Smock]

Nobody knows D13 FE history better than me Mic. I brought it to the party in 07. 14 years is a pretty good run! The noise, (yes Terry I said it again lol) has already started on the "P-Minus" motor dimension thing here. We'll see where it goes.

Like I said....

Anyway, you have at it. I just dropped in to say Congratulations to the record setters. And giggle a little.

[T.S.Davis]

I just dropped in to say Congratulations to the record setters:

Come on Doug....you dropped in to take another swing at limited. You waited three posts deep to "congratulate" anyone.

You could argue that we don't need limited but you would still be wrong. Just as you were for the last 11 years that they were the most populated of all FE classes. Hey at least IMPBA is still holding the line so pat yourself on the back for that.

Mic, classes with a motor list or limit have been FE's most populated classes since 2003. Pretty much what your data shows has been the case since the original Limited Sport Hydro back in 03. Might have been 2002. It was eons ago. Guys argued about motors then too.

[Doug Smock]

I said "and giggle a little" Terry, yeah I guess it's the same thing. My bad but then you won't pass up an opportunity either my brother.

Terry you didn't answer my question. Are you going to hook your hobby shop & club racers up with Davis Rewinds? If they can compete with yours with off the shelf motors you're not doing it right BTW. I know the answer, never mind.

Seriously I'm done here guys. Have at it, my "limited" fleet has been retired so my dogs are on the porch..

Good luck with it and I'll see you at the pond fellas.

Sorry for the derail. Congratulations again Don and Martin!

[T.S.Davis]

You mean like it has been for every class in racing since ever?

For P racing it was Graupner 700 8.4v, Graupner 700 9.6v. Plettenberg. Bring on the brushless motors. Tosded all my setups in the bin. Aveox, Hacker, Lehner, Feigeo, Plett, Neu, TP. Talk about motor of the day. Not to mention the speedo of day club. Astroflight, RC Hydro, Aveox, Hacker, BK, Castle (10 versions at least), Schulze, MGM, Hobbywing, Flycolor, Swordfish, Etti. Then there's modifying ESC's to suit an application. Nope no "of the day" anything in P.

Limited was AQ 1700, Proboat 1500, AQ 2030, then a new AQ 2030, then try to find an old 2030 because the new batch sucked. Next was the new style Proboat 1500. Then a Proboat 2000.

Racing is evolving technology and searching for speed. Always has been....always will be. This is true for every fuel source and every class.

Doug, you take shot at limited every time it comes up. Your arguments against it never hold any water.

To your motor question. I've already taught one club member to do it himself. I'll likely teach others. The wire costs next to nothing. It's the knowledge that has value. Like when Crowther lays up a Seaducer or Brian balances a prop.

[HTVboats]

What works for a SAW or 2 lap may not complete well in 6 lap competition. Will rewinds take over? You can give horsepower to people and most don't have the setup or prop to gain diddle. All racing has people who maximize and improve. All competition has "wallet racers". Even with the most expensive equipment you can stuff into a 3660 it will not come near what a Q with single or twin motors will require. The can limit is a good start to control cost. It is easily inspected. You could make a rotor length rule or a battery weight rule but either would make a cumbersome inspection that isn't going to happen. Gas boats have "stock" classes that if torn down would eliminate a lot of people. Yet it is growing the numbers with the illusion you have equal equipment. The new guy in the feeder classes doesn't expect to dominate. He just wants to have a shot.
Mic

[HTVboats]

Equal equipment is not just a motor.
Mic

[HUFFRACING]

Congrats to everyone, especially AMPDADDY Don Huff and Martin Truex Jr.! If you are going to take one P-Limited record you may as well take a BUNCH of them, and while you are at it... grab a couple P records too!

To anyone who thinks AMPDADDY threw a big pile of money at the P-Limited class and miraculously a record breaking solution just reared its head you are SADLY mistaken. Has he spent some money to buy various motors and experiment??? Sure, but some of you guys have spent way more money than he ever will burning up box-stock P-Limited motors (I know because I see how many crispy box-stock motors get mailed to him for repairs on an ongoing basis) . It takes time, talent, and a tremendous amount of testing (aka trial and error) to come up with a "better mousetrap"...

You can argue over the intent of the class until the cows come home (and based on the neverending P-Lim rules threads around here... you will), but when it comes to setting records the rules published by the national sanctioning body are the gospel, and the gospel reads:

P-Limited Approved Motors
i) Motors shall be of an inrunner design and shall not exceed the following dimensions:
(a) Length: 60mm (2.362 in.), this includes any bearing protrusion
(b) Diameter: 37 mm (1.457 in.)

You can roll up quite a few $100 bills and stuff them in a can measuring 37 x 60 (if you really think money is the answer)... See how that works out for you!

Later,
Lamar

[T.S.Davis]

Yet it is growing the numbers with the illusion you have equal equipment. The new guy in the feeder classes doesn't expect to dominate. He just wants to have a shot.
Mic

That's the perception thing that Mike was referring to. We talked about it at our last club meeting. No shouting just us all trying to be honest with each other about it. Some of our best drivers, guys that can hold their own with just about anybody were/are of the opinion that the motor was unfair advantage. Same guys were okay with better cells, a one off hull, blue printing, an $80 prop, and guys that practice lap after lap after lap to be able to run decent lines and find the sweet center of gravity. My son has been racing cars twice a week. Once he raced 7 events in 9 days. How tight is his hand/eye coordination going to be this summer? Little bugger was a pain in the a$$ before. Then still some of us make up for our sad driving skills with speed. Raising my hand on that one.

There is no way to equalize race boats or racers such that it boils down to just their driving talent. Unless we have one boat, one motor, one prop, and no practicing. My opinion at least.

[T.S.Davis]

By the way.......

Saw a guy tuning his nitro motors on a dyno. Outrageous skills went in to the machine work. Spits out power graphs. Not sure what all it does. Wayyy over my head but very trick. I assume he'll be providing motors to all his competitors so they can compete with him.

[HUFFRACING]

By the way.......
Saw a guy tuning his nitro motors on a dyno. Outrageous skills went in to the machine work. Spits out power graphs. Not sure what all it does. Wayyy over my head but very trick. I assume he'll be providing motors to all his competitors so they can compete with him.

That nitro motor dyno is a work of art, just beautiful machine work! I'm interested to see what he does with it.

Lamar

[Reesor@work]

You are taking about Terry Keeley...his work is incredible. Terry is a perfectionist and it shows in every single thing he does.

[Doug Smock]

Doug, you take shot at limited every time it comes up. Your arguments against it never hold any water.

Umm, Apparently mine and others did. But whatever, I said I was done. Like in the past, we can just agree to disagree my friend.

It's all been said over and over again.

See ya at the pond fellas!

[Doug Smock]

You are taking about Terry Keeley...his work is incredible. Terry is a perfectionist and it shows in every single thing he does.

Hi Steve,
He doesn't mind going the extra mile for the IMPBA either. He has always rounded up equipment needed to keep the depots in timing sensors. One of the good guys for sure!

[donhuff]

For the RECORD on those record motors I used the other day. The first passes made with the mono were done with a motor I made up from a couple different motors that I had in the "junk box" of old burned up stuff. It was put into an AQ can, YES a true 36x56 motor. And it went 69.993 on the SAW and reset the oval record! But after 6 passes it was 165* and smokeing quite a bit.

I told Martin that we had to get 70 or it just wouldn't be right. So I moved the motor from the cat over into the mono because it was a 36.95x59.5. Couple of minutes later and we had 71 MPH. And for the claims about "Unobtainium" and "wallet racing" I gave $46.00 for that motor and then a bit of machine work and a lot of head scratching, figuring out how to wind it and make it work. It's nothing very fancy or exotic, just has more rotor displacement than the average LTD motor.

Martin made a couple of 74 mph downwind passes when we had a little ripple on the pond, but we couldn't get a good enough upwind pass to back it up, before the batteries started losing enough voltage that we could hear the rpm falling off. He asked me " So I have to get it right on the first pass, right?" I replied YES dammit. And that's what he did next time out.

But knowing 75 mph was so close he wanted more prop, me too but I was out of anything that was a little bit bigger. The 71 was done with an ABC 1916-17-45, and the kv on that motor is 2575, all I had up from that was a 2015-17-45. The motor was only 118* so we gave the big prop a try. When he rolled on the throttle I could see that 75 was going in the books because the boat took on a whole different attitude and was absolutely flying when it passed the first light. Then it shut down, then came back only to throttle down again. Martin yells "It's cutting off, that's not me". We were hitting the amp limit on the mamba xlx, and I had it set on 300 amps! When I downloaded the data, we were pulling 338 amps and flat lining, before it would cut back. The volts got down into the high 13s, watts hit a peak of 5200. I can't wait until I can go back with a more capable esc and a better motor. I have a couple that have maybe 15- 20% more displacement than this one.

Edit: 300 amps not 3000. That would have made a lot of smoke!

[T.S.Davis]

Rewinding a motor cost nothing. The head scratching is where all the value is. You can't put a dollar figure on the noggin.

Turn the limit off Don. Keep an extinguisher close though. SAW and time trials aren't like racing oval. Can you imagine trying to pull 6 laps with those kind of numbers? Puddles of solder everywhere. For those worrying about "near P speeds".......well yeah at a SAW event. You can't oval race a limited mono at 70. You can barely go straight with it that fast. You could however oval race a P mono near 70 though. P Sport for sure.

Don, I gotta get down there to play with you guys. Would be fun to fiddle with one of these small sport hydros. I also have a number of props for you to throw at that mono.