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Thread: Adjustable propeller pitch for surface pising propeller

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    Default Adjustable propeller pitch for surface pising propeller

    adjustable propeller pitch for surface pircing propeller

    Hi,
    something different, how can you make the propeller pitch adjustable for a semi-submersible propeller without the propeller blades having to be movable?
    Here are a few pictures, in the case of semi-submersible propellers, only the blades that are immersed in the water are relevant for the drive. If two opposing propellers are placed next to each other, you can lift the propwalk on the one hand, but you can also adjust the angle of the valley to the straight line of travel as viewed in the angle of attack. Since it would be a bit cumbersome to adjust the whole propeller shaft, it is best to use two Arneson Drives. You have to remove the Skeg fins and put a rudder blade between the propellers.
    Now you can adjust the propeller inflow at an angle and thus have the option to start with flatter propellers for better acceleration and then to switch to a higher propeller pitch to be able to reach a higher top speed. In order to relieve the joints at maximum performance, the drives are installed at an angle so that the couplings have to achieve as little angle compensation as possible on a steep incline. See the pictures of the drive in the boat.

    Happy Amps Christian
    Happy Amps Christian

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    Hi,
    more pics

    Happy Amps Christian
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Happy Amps Christian

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    Hi,
    more to know about. If you have run a outrigger in a corner , the normal,outrigger comptition has right hand corner, you will notice that the motot rev up and the load is lower. This is a function of to run with the propwalk and becaus the transo slide left that lower the propeller pitch. To run right hand corner comes from history of ic. motor racing , this combustion motors have less torque and get in problems when the load rise. So the right ha d corner let the engine lower load rev easyer. With electric motors you will accelerate the rigger in a corner if you run a counter rev propeller. Yes no easy theroetic lessen but it is.

    Happy Amps Christian
    Happy Amps Christian

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    Hi Christian,
    I have these photos from a year ago. Do you have it at least working with the radio yet? Can we see it actually work? A twin thai longtail could do the same thing an is less complicated. They have the rc model running very well already. There are videos of them working. Can we get a demonstration of yours and this thing it does when turning?


    Regards,
    Hubert

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    Hi ,
    but no one of all them has the idea to use such drive to get different propeller pitch and no one has a twin surface drive with counter rotating propellers to get the effect. You see you can not understand the innovation that is in this idea. If they have a twin drive , they use only different rev of the propellers to for stearing or the heve only a singel propdrive and do stearing , that all. That is old way everybudy knows. Yes i have testet it .

    Happy Amps Christian
    Happy Amps Christian

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    This is an interesting line of thinking and it took me a moment to realize exactly what you are doing, but something tells me you don't get something for free. Your concept seems workable in an ideal world, but at start-up, both propellers will be in a submerged condition. They will only go to surface-piercing mode when the hull is at planing attitude. How will your system work with this transition? I see you have it set-up in a cat; that's a good choice. Making it work in a mono hull that rolls to the side in a turn may be problematic.

    Or perhaps this may work: The VAPSA System (Variable Angle Propeller Shaft Assembly) is only activated at speed when increased acceleration is required out of a turn. Things would have to happen really fast and it would probably need to be computer-programmed into the throttle system with some sort of override when the props are submerged. There's a lot of complexity and extra parts in your design, I would be interested in seeing how it affects performance.
    A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves

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    How do you know what they know over there? Theirs runs so where's the video of better from your test then? Same photo from 2 years ago theres no radio gear in it, You took this photo but not that one? Why would I understand theory doing nothing or understand a stand a still photo of it. The principles you read can be read in any maritime engineering book by anyone. What so special about this knowlegde? That sits on a lawn chair? You want people to understand and adopt theory without showing them it works. Thats grand. It will fall to the bottom soon enuf what I understand is you especially will never control it well enough while driving in a real situation to make any use of it other than fun running. Since you are no EE you cannot code autonomy but nice toy.
    Last edited by eXoNerated; 06-28-2020 at 11:39 AM.

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    Hi Dr. Jet,
    there is no problem when starting off because you can easily adjust both propeller shafts parallel to the boat's central axis. The servos make every position of the propeller shafts possible. So if you stand in parallel, the boat drives like two normal counter-rotating propellers. When the boat has started to glide, you can move to different positions with the propeller shaft angles, depending on whether you need a little less incline to accelerate better out of a curve or the incline slowly increases to achieve a higher top speed. In curves you will support the rudder blade with the steering drives, as everyone does with a stearable Propshaft drive like a Arneson drive.
    I have tested this with also a single drive with seperate ruder.
    xboy you see you hav not understod this drives as everything you do not understand, go home or go fishing, the fish are happy because you can't catch one anyway.Trolling is the true , you are a Troll.

    Happy Amps Christian
    Happy Amps Christian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ch.Lucas View Post
    Hi Dr. Jet,
    there is no problem when starting off because you can easily adjust both propeller shafts parallel to the boat's central axis. The servos make every position of the propeller shafts possible. So if you stand in parallel, the boat drives like two normal counter-rotating propellers. When the boat has started to glide, you can move to different positions with the propeller shaft angles, depending on whether you need a little less incline to accelerate better out of a curve or the incline slowly increases to achieve a higher top speed. In curves you will support the rudder blade with the steering drives, as everyone does with a stearable Propshaft drive like a Arneson drive..........

    Happy Amps Christian
    Here's a hypothetical thought that would be easy to program into a radio. I haven't fully contemplated how it would work, but it would be something like this: Forget about using the drives for steering. Use the rudder. Then, slave the drive angle servo to the steering channel in such a way that the more you turn the rudder (in either direction) the closer together the propellers become. In other words; when turning , you would have low pitch, when going straight, you would have high pitch. That's easier than fooling with a separate input on the transmitter. You could even program this feature to be "On" or "Off" at any given time.
    A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves

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    Now you just need to see it run. You see the Thai that "dont know" about your genius are running very flat without it.



    Regards
    Hubert
    Last edited by eXoNerated; 06-29-2020 at 09:13 AM.

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    Does your boat run 50 mph? Can we see? U see the super simple construction of the longtail? The 3rd world engineer u claim cannot match you genius for Less than 2 dollars in brushed motors runs your record speed still with brushed power and a 5 dollar 2 channel radio. I could build this in 30min and smoke the Arneson drive boat. It can also handle more torque than a plastic arneson drive and will last virtually forever run after run. This is "fun" running for cheap and without great complication. They build their own props too .
    Regards
    Hubert
    Last edited by eXoNerated; 06-29-2020 at 10:32 AM.

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    Hi,
    all this boats have nothing to do with changing propeller pitch . You see , you do not understand this technic . Better you play with your boat.

    Happy Amps Christian
    Happy Amps Christian

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    I understand pitch and how it works every bit as well as you but I also wonder why anyone other than a didactic toymaker would be interested in SLOWER with more complications and broken parts on a "fast" electric boat forum? What good is this when it's still sitting at the start line broken or delayed as it requires the sailor to throw gang signs at the radio while the other boat has finished the race?
    Complicated slower and less durable is the genius ill never understand.

    Plastic arneson drive is also worthless for any real torque handling. No good except for a pool toy. Evolve and I guess if it runs at all it doesnt run 50 or we's get to see it. When you ran the boat what esc did you use? More durable is to put the standard solid prop/shaft combos on tilt pan apparatus. Very simple and maintains a bullet proof trasmission THAT WILL LAST with much more range to adjust pitch. Copying the Arneson drive (someone elses genius) is easy coming up with something practical on your own for an FE model no so much. Put this through the paces with anything other than toy power and it falls apart. Submit it back to Graupner. The Thai dont understand according to you but they are the ones with boats that use this pitch changing priciple on the regular and post the faster small twin the forum can actually see run. They reached 50 mph with very little effort in a boat with simple hardware that will last forever.

    But anyway here is a real arneson drive for a rc boat wheres the "innovation"?






    “Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.”
    E.F. Schumacher

    Regards
    Hubert
    Last edited by eXoNerated; 06-29-2020 at 03:49 PM.

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    Hi,
    so for all Reader here what is the innovation ? The innovation is that the boat can accelerate faster . It hit topspeed in shorter time as the motor see a lower pitch propeller that produce higher trust as the motor are less load rev higher . When the boat reach the speed of the lower pitch propeller the pitch can now rised like it is used to get the topspeed that is needed for the race. Not a fixed pitch propeller has only a fixed topspeed that can only raised by rising the motor rpm. This is only possible for phase switch or flux changing motors but always with the coast of much higher load for the motors. The propeller pitch changing is the better and energy saver way. Have a look at airplanes , most airplane have a pitch control for propeller driven planes. Every pilot know how to use this extra trust changing device.
    Also a boat can not only better accelerate it has better race performance as the pilot can fast and easy control the trust this way has higher efficance than to control trust by electronic esc wenn control rpm. Part speed has less efficancy and it works by lowering the rpm. If you then want to accelerate out of a corner the motor has to rev up. With changing pitch the drive rev higher at lower speed and now after the corner the motor has much higher power stored in it selv that helps much when the boat accelerate for the straight lane.
    So with such system the over all efficancy is much higher by faster respond time faster acceleration and higher topspeed.
    For all this you have to pay with electronic esc devise with less efficancy with slower acceleration and higher energy consumption and slower topspeed. So i hope that you have now understod the dirffence of the longtail boats and the twin arneson drive . I have a arneson drive ,i need no picture from you . This cheap and good working stearable drives are made by me and sold by Graupner million drives a year. Spend me a high free income doing nothing only hold open my hands. Many modelboater in the world have used this drive mounted on the hydrocup racer , the KeyWest offshore tunnelboat and the Corbra monohull and many more .

    Happy Amps Christian
    Happy Amps Christian

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    If the other is already faster without it coz you start with no pitch so it wont make a difference. Driving It that way will require a real technique you will not master in a pool to say it will work. Definitively "innovation" is supposed to be something new. The arneson drive has been around a long time and could have always been used this way. The one u posted has no real kahunas for a high performance boat. So whats new. The higher pitch also comes with amperage draw and by the time you throw your gang signs at the radio the competition has the hole shot simply on reaction time and gone you lost!!! Where you think you run the Bonneville flats? If u think there's an advantage in these short periods of time show us . Theory sounds good but nothing practical is considered. You aslo cannot writre the code. I already have written it for the canards. Now they need a flux switching motor to run this thing. Come on man really? You dont have that yourself or a drive to run it. What modeler here will? What a dream Chris what a dream but it might bring validation of your genius to everyone. Isnt that the true purpose of the thread anyway?


    Regards
    Hubert
    Last edited by eXoNerated; 06-29-2020 at 04:42 PM.

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    Hi,
    you have never run a competition and you can not understand how effifcancy plays for the winner . So i have this know how and my pool is 2000 meter long , you know the Munich SAW Regatta rowing station is just 15 Minutes from me and my brother in law , my sisters husband is the director of the town Munich and he is the highest offical who can say what can happen on this high speed stadion. And i have all rights to run my boats on this spezial lake. And every year we let the Munich SAW happen . I want J?rg Fink the current SAW manager to become the head for the rowing stadion , you can aske him. We have a very good relationship. Also you can aske Tyler , he knows J?rg Fink.

    And no you van not do it with a full size Arneson drive as the drive has a skeg , only the drive you show is the modelboat arneson drive Hydro& Marine sells that has not skeg. So you show that you have never seen a 1:1 Arneson drive . I have visite Arneson drive company personaly and i have visite John Broadbeck from Circus Circus Hotel in Las Vegas. i will serach the photo from him i shot with his pink collered K&B Outbord modelraceboat motor. He was a fan of modelboat racing.

    Happy Amps Christian
    Happy Amps Christian

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    Ask Tyler about who you know for what? Jorg Fink and Him have nothing to explain how this works and how well. But without going to a meet I can see if a boat is fast if it actually runs. Its hasn't won any meets and is not faster than the simple thai boat so whats the relevance? A pool you own 2000 meters long Impressive!!! What did you learn in your trip to a casino in vegas about the technical aspects of Ron Jones's boat? Yes amazed you are that the arneson I post is for a model boat from MHZ . But why thats the topic did you forget? Eureka! You cant put an aluminum and bronze full size Arneson drive from a real boat on an rc Christian an adding a skeg is very easy. After its done it will not fall apart like a plastic toy drive will every time.

    Is the great innovation here a skeg then but theyve always been here too.



    For me the thai boat may actually be one of the most impressive things Ive seen in a long time. The effort was minimal for speeds you relish in with brushed motors. They didnt need the BLDC machine to run fast or a bunch of fragile complication. In my humble opinion it a better idea that will give loads of fun and not headaches making you leave model baoting forever.

    Certainly if you ran the boat it has a deck. Can you share photos of the completed boat with the deck on? Im sure the gang would like to see how it finished out.


    Regards ,
    Hubert
    Last edited by eXoNerated; 06-30-2020 at 12:34 AM.

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    Hi,
    you still don't understand that such a drive has advantages. It was no different with the external rotor motor. In 1998 I offered the external rotor motor concept to 6 model motor manufacturers and they all rejected it at the time and continued to produce internal rotor with gear. Today, the outrunners are the best-selling model engines worldwide. The boat is just a demonstrator that it is possible, nothing more. who will use such a drive and how is left to everyone. Just like the outrunner that I developed not only for world speed record fliers, but for everyone how they want to use it.

    This is not the only forum here and I don't care whether someone is interested or not.You want only make everything bad , that is you intension. Very mad from you .

    Happy Amps Christian
    Happy Amps Christian

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    I undestand anything you can but Where is the advantage im to see in a boat that hasnt done anythin in competition or even a video running? Im not mad about anything but asked do you have photos of the complete boat? You said you ran it so Im asking if we cant see it run can we at least see it? You gotta have a deck if you ran it. I dont see innovation in something that already existed being re visited in plastic. You dont care about the forum but you came here on your own accord whats the problem now? It seems youre the only one mad here because I show you not need such complication for a modeler to have a fast boat. You just cant see any other innovations but your own or something from over there. U have no answer why it is faster if they have no know how. You said it but "I" make it all bad when I say match it then. Its all good nevermind. The motors work this plastic drive will not for a boat with any real power. it is a toy drive. Plus this already exsit so it isnt like an outrunner and you will recieve no patent there is no innovation in reposting something that already exist.

    Regards
    Hubert
    Last edited by eXoNerated; 06-30-2020 at 01:11 AM.

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    Also Christian,
    An Arneson drive will also not make the tight corner as a traditional boat with a rudder especially at lower speeds That's a disadvantage at a race course that counters its benefit. It makes wider radius turns. The entire purpose of a real areneson was it durability with no bevel gears as compared to a bravo. Making one plastic is truly counter intuitive and puts a a foot right in the mouth of its true purpose which is less drive train drag,ease of maintenance, and durability for big HP. If you bring up the real arneson I can go there. It's hardly "bad". I just know the right questions to ask and points to make versus standing in awe like you would expect. Example You also spoke nothing about the running attitude of the boat while you're doing all these wonderful manipulations on the business end. Added pitch + no handling does not equal a win it equals a boat all over the place and probably blown over. If you add the rudder then you just got increasingly more underwater drag in addition to the drives ..... losing more speed. The graupner drives are not new so still again no innovation (new things) if a million already buy years ago . And while I was a fan of the Graupner line of fe boats they are dated now and ran with brushed toy power just larger than Thai's. Those boats were extremely low powered as compared to todays FE with the smallest motors delivering nearly a hp. U spoke of elaborate esc and controllers and such but you dont show any of that and the drive doesnt even have servos connected to it to show us the range of motion. Is this all you got on it Christian? all u need is one mcu to do all these things you just cannot code is the problem huh? The code is out there on the right forum its just a scalable directive between the memsic polling angle and pulse width of the servo drive within the MCU.
    Since you say I know nothing ill let you search for it on your own.

    Regards
    Hubert
    Last edited by eXoNerated; 06-30-2020 at 02:31 PM.

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    This is like a pissing contest! Honestly it achieves nothing. Test the idea see if it really works, even just the heck of it. Arguing about this and that is a waste of time and energy!
    NZMPBA 2013, 2016 Open Electric Champion. NZMPBA 2016 P Offshore Champion.
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    BOPMPBC Open Mono, Open Electric Champion.

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    That all I want is finally a test on some of these ideas. Ive looked at this and alot of other things for a long time now Peter. Im not the only one on forums ready to see some of it. You know yourself that drive isnt going to hold much at today power. It def has to make wider turns like any other arneson and who can control it really in the heat of a race.These are all fair questions of this posted tech. No match. And I still dont see how its new or innovative if Graupners been selling it since the early 90's he says it works and it runs but does it honestly look complete and if it is why not give us what you just asked for? Certainly also the attitude of the boat will change so why not ask how that affects thing from its creator. Its all fair these questions or how do we kmnow it works or is innovative. I see issues with it so Im just stating that. Wheneven i ask a question I dumb and dont know much but these are great poits and chris just doesnt wann deal with that.

    Regards
    Hubert.
    Last edited by eXoNerated; 06-30-2020 at 03:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter A View Post
    This is like a pissing contest! Honestly it achieves nothing. Test the idea see if it really works, even just the heck of it. Arguing about this and that is a waste of time and energy!
    My sentiments exactly. However, I think it's like the wrestling a pig in the mud joke: Sooner or later, you realize the pig is enjoying it. I think they like yanking each other's chains because they enjoy it.

    Enough talk; put it on the water and see what happens. "Theory" and "Real World" aren't always the same thing.
    A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Jet View Post
    My sentiments exactly. However, I think it's like the wrestling a pig in the mud joke: Sooner or later, you realize the pig is enjoying it. I think they like yanking each other's chains because they enjoy it.

    Enough talk; put it on the water and see what happens. "Theory" and "Real World" aren't always the same thing.
    You yanking chains now too coz you just made the same request I have for pages now. You dont have to call us pigs either him or I so please no name calling. . I dont like anything so please speak for yourself but if I see something I will ask. Its not groundbreaking Its what forums are for You post something and there will be a discussion about it if it isnt then no one found it interesting. I have nothing to do with the initiation of ad hominem by Christian to prove his technical theory when I bring a point. Even though you just did the same thing over dataloging in ur own thread u can act better than and Ask him why he comes here and goes 0 to 100 for an audience just like that after 7 yearz of friendship He has to be wrong .What friend does that?? Hes even brought my mother and father into his public rants . He dont 3ven know my mother or father.. It is there way over there to argue and back stab constantly so his training to act like this in times of trouble is at its maximum coming from the hostile environment he dwells in. Its toxic so he cannot be be rebriefed at this time and maybe ever so u have to ask him why he needs to paint a light that everyone is dumb unless the are from over there somewhere u can see not even Ron Jones Jr. can touch him. He needs Fabio some one from over there where he's from. Screw American designers? No I wont. Id say thats a bit excessive for the scale guys here to hear him say this about someone we all respect in U1 and expecting us to buddy up to the a soviet invention piggy backed of Howard Hughes work. It is insane and proves he doesn't quite no where he is or the state of the international community I've no love for the soviet union currently plotting to kill our boys. Thats another topic but I do plan to ask each time to see it work... his genius. Thats fair after almost 10 years . One things for sure I don't want crap from the Russian military . We lead so I can marvel in what we do right here in the U S OF A. He feels 156 mph is something u boat designers are in awe of and that's so far from the truth.


    Regards
    Hubert
    Last edited by eXoNerated; 06-30-2020 at 06:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter A View Post
    This is like a pissing contest! Honestly it achieves nothing. Test the idea see if it really works, even just the heck of it. Arguing about this and that is a waste of time and energy!
    The 2 of them seem to like trolling each other. It's getting old quick .They follow each other through the forums bitching at each other like an old couple.

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    AND anytime this man has been attacked like he just did me I came to his aid pronto and backed his statement with photograph of the academic side of things and posted the motors. So why would he do this here and then this on helifreaks?

    "Mr. Okon has never noticed how to use such motorplates and high powerdens motors as he has no clue about motordesign. That he is allways following this tread by Hubert show his interest in Huberts coil design. That he say that it makes no sense is od and show how he is unable. Hey, let a Scorpion 4025 Motor that has a kv of 460 run at 35volt and 100 ampere = 3500 watt input power till it will reach 100 degree rotorbell temperature (need some minute) and Selead all the cooling holes, that is important to see the loss power and not how the cooling fan is working. In the same runtime a similar sized motor with the coils like Hubert wind his motor reach only 50 degree. This is a segnificant improvment of efficiency for this coil arrangement. Hubert has done and it is cool"

    ~Christian Lucas~

    See what Im saying HE"S TRIPPIN I guess Tylers speed just took him away just like that.
    See dogged me out. see how it is???? but its always me......that's what it is then.

    But hes right I gotta be stupid because I don't know who my real friends are. Its also quite obvious I know absolutely nothing about a remote controlled boat.

    I can live with this, wont post any more in his thread and go work on my "spruce and glue" coz allz I have left is my pride and my word.

    Regards
    Hubert
    Last edited by eXoNerated; 06-30-2020 at 08:46 PM.

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