Whos making these wire drive coupling systems?

[RaceMechaniX]

12000mAh in NAMBA and none in IMPBA

[eXoNerated]

12000mAh in NAMBA and none in IMPBA

Ok so there is the possibility in IMPBA of running with lower voltages with several multiple parallel packs. Like you said you need a controller that can sink it. Have you attained a direct source for the cells JAGS use? Christian was involved and suggest they can be purchased at German speed plane site but I have no positive confirmation. Do You?


Edit....
https://www.stefansliposhop.de/en/batteries/sls-speed/sls-speed-limited-edition-5100mah-6s-7-4v-70-140c::1929.html

BACKORDERED!

SLS SPEED
For all high-current junkies: There is no such thing off the shelf. The SLS SPEED were "bred in the laboratory" with great effort. Many thanks to Jorg, who supported us with his experience and his many years of know-how. Special separator, special electrolyte, wide axial conductor. Really all components are designed for performance. Almost like a small nuclear power plant. We have never had a cell that eats so much electricity or that can be charged so much. Especially the axial conductors (butterfly) do what they are supposed to do. They stay pleasantly cool. ... and don't worry, it's even cycle-proof...
Speedflight - Applications according to the new 10S regulations
Powerboot - Applications / Competition
all other applications with very high and constant continuous currents
Performance Diagram SPEED Limited Edition 70C

If anyone could get them today 2 of these in parallel can sink >1.4 kA

Regards,
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

Hubert,
The upper limit is 10s in both organizations. I believe NAMBA still has a 2 parallel pack limit for all classes, but this may have been revised. IMPBA has no parallel limit.
In Germany they run by slightly different rules and only allow certain cell configurations with a maximum weight per cell. So a 10S2P pack is considered L20. A 10S1P is an L10. You can run L10 with two 5S packs in parallel. In these rules riggers are allowed to run up to L10. So practically they all run single 1P configurations in riggers. This pushed need for better cell chemistries and Joerg in particular worked with a specific vendor to develop these cells.

Yes I am familiar with the cells run by Joerg, Arne and Gunnar. They were kind enough build be a special 1P pack when I run in Munich. I could not take these home on the plane so they stay in Germany.
The cells that JAG run in the riggers are not the same as those run in the cats.
The cats are likely running the SLS cells, but the riggers are running specially built cells only available to team JAG.

The SLS cells are near identical to the RoaringTop cells here in the US. Joerg and I have both benchmarked the SLS and RT cells and found the results similar from the chemistry.
What makes the RT cells good for 1P configurations is the mechanical construction. They are a "butterfly" style construction meaning the tabs are at either end of the cell allowing for greater width and current transfer.

From a chemistry perspective if you can package 2P in the hull, the HK Graphene cells are hard to beat. They do not have the best construction, but their chemistry is good and they are very stable.

[eXoNerated]

Hi Tyler,
Thanks for the information on the batteries. Its key. Here's a few shot of the lake at dusk and dawn.
This is about 35 miles from "Asheboro". It can be accessed directly of 64 east from that way. It would be about 3 hrs from "Asheville" if you're that far west. I cant remember which you said.

Regards
Hubert

[eXoNerated]

I hope to Speak with Mike and propose another outrunner alternative for scale boats. Egodrift. I'm working with Vincent Offenbeck to release custom rewind kits. They come handwound with larger monowire. The quality and output surpasses a standard HKIII 4035 Scorpion. A motor like this can easily peak over 5kW while weighing only 488 grams. Im not suggesting it as a SAW motor but it does have potential for high torque and high pitch props. It will run cooler than the old 8 pole HK4035's. The is a 12 slot 10 pole motor. Here is a predicted performance graph from a rewind I did on an Align outrunner, a much lower quality motor, based on its motor parameters Kv. weight, pole count , idle current and measure dc resistance. I increase the copper fill by nearly 2 grams. This LRK single winding scheme was patent by Christain for the outrunners There is some potential with all the torque and lighter powerplants. In delta the resistance is very low and the power density high. You always needed a controller that could commutate the high pole counts . APD can do this. to over 100krpm. Christian and I are working with the universities NC State D.E.E.C.S. on fractionally slotted concentrated winds that are rivaling distributed winds like a NUE or Lehner's low BEMF THD. Laymays terms.... A beautiful sine wave with very low harmonic content and boosted torque.
The beauty of the FSCW is the high fill content. The downside has been the slot and space harmonics associated with non overlapping coils.

[eXoNerated]

A fun video for you. An outrunner exploding at nearly 200,000 rpm. Motor is run to its mechanical limits. The APD PRO HV drive is perfectly alright after the run and obvious motor short. Enjoy! Obviously it would be easier to build the carbon retention sleeve for an outrunner since You dont have to be mindful of degrading the flux relationships in the air gap. The retention sleeve has to be a press fit so it would have to be preformed on a slightly undersized mandrel finished then parted off. I already have those numbers as they pertain. For the inruners im visualizing a jig using a fishing reel with drag to pre tension carbon tread or stainless wire around a inrunner rotor. Inconnel has also been used with success. I think Steve's high speed rotors involve an interlocking dovetail channel of some type. Note the shrapnel trough the side of your toke much harder than our skin!!

Regards
Hubert.

[eXoNerated]

This is what FE cal reports back on the rewound align. They go on about it in Grmany. Ask Christian he can tell you the work he and I are doing with the motors.

In a performance hydro with 10s lipo @ 9800 mah and a castle 240. Prop wizard selected an ABC 1918 as the most efficient prop for the setup.
Resultant:

28,221 rpm
141 amps
4,955.78 watts Pin
4,728.58 watts Pout
run time 4.15 minutes
est speed 79.20 mph or 127.46 Km/h
Eff. 95.42%

The efficiency doesn't begin to drop off till 284 amperes surely the beginning of the end @ 10.5 kW.

[eXoNerated]

Here is the wind. It is a parallel WYE wind in a single layer. The torque plot at 10S lipo is also attached. U,V,W, terminals are composed of 2Xs 13 AWG. This compact winding can sink amps and should be able to hold 396 amps for 10 seconds. Onderdonk would be be beyond any drive on the shelf.
Egodrift 4035 and and APD F3 200 should be supper competitive extremely light power system for 1/8th scales.


Rm .oo5 ohms
Kv 824
Io 3.27 amps @22.5 volts including radial fan load.
Weight 448.8 grams
12 slot 10 poles
U may use the parameters in calculators if you would like.

Regards,
Hubert


PS
I have contatcted Franz and await his answers.

[RaceMechaniX]

Hello Hubert,

What is your experience level with model boats? I gather you are an EE working on a quads and other aircraft motors and controllers based on the names you mentioned and the above information.
I am not trying to off putting, but cannot get a bearing on what information to provide you.

The lake you mentioned does looks awfully nice, but I suspect it has a fair amount of real boats and potentially swimmers in the area.
In both IMPBA and NAMBA running model boats where full size boats are near and particularly swimmers is forbidden and likely negates any insurance coverage.
I know a few model boaters ignore these safety rules but it puts all of us in jeopardy. I may be stating the obvious, but please be careful when considering where to run especially for a SAW boat.

[eXoNerated]

I have 30+ years experience in model boats. Beach areas are roped off and no ones at the lake in the early am or dusk. Were still in a covid world so the activity is marginal as compared. I understand quite well wats involved liability wise as safety is concerned, but I certainly cannot leave the entire state to find water . As a 44 year occupant I know that's madness . Anyone that does that simply doesn't know the state of NC just yet. Theres water everywhere T. What to do? As you say the boats are getting too fast so how does it proceed from here? The NC club is down and there really no explanation about it. Its just dead over some stolen boat parts etc. and that's just it apparently. It was too small for SAW anyway according to James. U are here in NC so we only need 3 more to make it valid as a group. If I pull my son in we only need 2 more. The idea of driving to Huntsville or out of the state isn't practical so I have to find a place to run and make the best of it. Unfortunately we have to share the water but I'm fine with this as we all have a right to recreation in various ways. I'm fine the times I cannot test because the landlubbers are enjoying themselves. We also have falls lake another option. These huge reservoirs have many coves away from the crowd. These are better spot as the trees help break the wind and reduce the chop.

Regards
Hubert.

[eXoNerated]

Tyler,
Can you tell me more about the German location? What is the lead (Xc) into the trap and afterwards? If you set up an appropriate course for the speed you are seeing today how would you do it? How many feet you need etc. I have an approach diagram for SAW . Gimme a second and I will post it. Tell me how inadequate is it or not for todays speeds? What's actually need for the new era of fast electric speeds? Sorry if you cant follow I'm simply sharing tangents of this you might find interesting. Maybe not. I am and engineer but I've spent just as much time with the boats as anything else. I'm not at all put off by what is said. If a person has no familiarity with what I am speaking on its okay. That's what sharing is for. Don't worry. I have full faith in my team, equipment, and abilities, and believe I can run faster than 100 with a scale boat built with my hands. We will see . Also is the German trap approximately 1/10 of a kilometer?

Regards
Hubert

[NativePaul]

They use the Munich Olympic rowing lake it is 2.23km long and 140m wide, they don't have it all available to them though, I think they have access to 500m of it, so 100m trap distance and 200m for acceleration/deceleration at either end.

[eXoNerated]

They use the Munich Olympic rowing lake it is 2.23km long and 140m wide, they don't have it all available to them though, I think they have access to 500m of it, so 100m trap distance and 200m for acceleration/deceleration at either end.

Hi Paul
Thank you for your answer about the site.

Regards
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

Paul has has it correct. Munich has a very active model boat crowd and a local champion also named Joerg who organizes the event every year.
There are usually about 20-30 guys that show up mostly with cats and riggers, but there are a couple sport hydro's and even canards that run.
The group rents a portion of the facility towards the south west corner which is the end of the lake.
A tall drivers stand is set-up approximately in the middle. The trap distance is 100m and timed with lasers. The run up and down on either side is something like 200-250m.
IMG_9898R.jpg
At the speeds team JAG are running they could use more length. They need airbrakes to slow their rigger down sufficiently to avoid hitting a beach.
There is good video from a quadcopter shot in 2015 to give you an idea.

[eXoNerated]

Thanks Tyler,

This was the response from Franz.

Hallo Hubert,
ja, du kannst die Spanzangenkupplung bei mir kaufen. Ich habe dir ein Bild davon an diese Mail geh?ngt.
Die Kupplungen haben alle die gleiche Ma?e, nur unterschiedliche Bohrungen f?r die Motorwellen. ( Durchmesser 27mm, L?nge 38mm)
Die ER 11 Eins?tze habe ich von 1-7mm, und in Zoll 3/16 Zoll und 1/4 Zoll.
Eine Spannzange kostet 39,50€ plus Versand wie gew?nscht.
Gru? Franz

Translation;
The collets are available with inserts of 1-7mm and in 3/16 and 1/4 for $44.50 plus shipping

I found out the shipping is about 50 dollars DHL so Franz is pricing the delivery through regular postage. In my mind it is way worth it even it it was 100.00 because all the insertt available for e-11 make it the most versatile single collet to date. They indicate the TIR at .0003. I can live with this. I still may makesome like your design because they are lighter with less rotating mass.

Thanks Again
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

Correct Hubert,

The nice design about Franz's collets is you can choose what quality and size ER11 insert you want to pay for. You can buy a metric and English set off eBay for $20 a set or pay $45 for a single super precision collet. You can run a 2.5mm wire or 3mm wire with a simple change of the collet. I have measured these collets with about 1-3 thou of total runout on the wire exiting the collet. This is perfectly acceptable for 99% of applications. The single piece couplers we machined are less than a thou total runout measured at the wire.

Here is a pic of one of Franz's couplers in a sport hydro with an outrunner at the Munich SAW's.

IMG_9976.jpg

-Tyler

[eXoNerated]

Correct Hubert,

The nice design about Franz's collets is you can choose what quality and size ER11 insert you want to pay for. You can buy a metric and English set off eBay for $20 a set or pay $45 for a single super precision collet. You can run a 2.5mm wire or 3mm wire with a simple change of the collet. I have measured these collets with about 1-3 thou of total runout on the wire exiting the collet. This is perfectly acceptable for 99% of applications. The single piece couplers we machined are less than a thou total runout measured at the wire.

Here is a pic of one of Franz's couplers in a sport hydro with an outrunner at the Munich SAW's.

IMG_9976.jpg

-Tyler

Nice! I see the kontronics pyro, a very good expen$ive outrunner. The photo made google when I wound one several years ago.
It is 12 slots and 14 pole for very high torque.

Your TIR's are probably better taken using a precision dowel or ground shaft.The extruded wire brings it own level of deformation.I understand doing the wire is more of an "empirical"measurement considering the transmission is not a ground shaft or precision dowel. If your compression leaf split bore design was bored all from one side starting with the large bore without removing the work piece It will likely have a lower TIR than the mill collets


Regards,
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

The runout and more importantly the vibration and friction are near non-existent when I ramp speed up. Sometime I will take a video to show the smooth run up and down. It's a PIA trying to perfectly align a wire drive to strut with minimal friction. Get it wrong and the wire will wad up in a hurry usually at high speed leading to a nasty stuff and carnage. Get it right and the wire will last a long time and hopefully get those couple MPH.

Speaking of outrunners, I collected these for future projects. Of the few people that have the Scorpion 7050 I have not heard good things.
The LMT TorqStar should be fun in a big mono on 14S.

IMG_9583.jpgIMG_9579R.jpg

[eXoNerated]

There is no comparison between the two. The Torqstar is a pure powerhouse and needs no rewinding. So many good things about it's design. The Scorpion is under filled an could be improved significantly with the right wind. Its a bundle in hand wild winding and it benefits of better fill, cooling, and matching phase inductance with a neat orthocyclic lay. Once rewound it is def no slouch, its big enough for the titanic, but through the Lehner eyes I don't think you will find it fair. For those outrunners the pro "drone" drives will do much better at high rpms with the fast 32bit f3 processing speeds. They can do 750,000 erpms. I really did not intend on much but a bronze bushing or needle bearing in the strut. James did several pillows of hard bronze in the box. If I run the shaft straight I don't have to contend with the radial load of the sprung wire. Possible you could just run the polished wire in a box one size up with machine oil. It worked on my small boats. Do you have photos the BB strut set up?

[eXoNerated]

Note that the Torqstar as big as it is can still turn 20K. Christian has sent a gift. 124mm lamination in its design. Basically I can build a 124mm version of it's stator. For fun here's a 7050 rewound in 2.588 mm 200C wire! Wound by a Chinese American Urologist. Think it will sink amps. Running to high an rpm with such conductors is asking for skin effect losses, but at lower fundamental drive frequencies this thing will sink AMPS. This is motor winding class. Some might think it think its easy....try it.


Regards
Hubert

[eXoNerated]

You will have to get with me and we will make that 7050 a true beast. This is one of my Nue outrunner in 3 special turns. Still in testing. It will be cooled by ferrofluid. It is a 24 slot 22 pole. U need commutation speed. U see the multiple stranding would eliminate skin effect losses. 1 turn in 10 AWG and 2 turns in 12 AWG. Your 5035 would make great 1/6 scale power. Build one Tyler.

[RaceMechaniX]

Hello Hubert,

I am not into scale boats or tunnel hulls so unlikely I will build one. If I did build a scale it would need to be legal in both IMPBA and NAMBA. This means a 40mm Neu motor for NAMBA and a 44mm LMT for IMPBA.

Here are some BB struts I have machined over the years. Leaded Teflon bushings also work fine especially for flex cables.
Couplers.jpgP1040143.jpgIMG_4022.jpg

[eXoNerated]

What a money shot. Beautiful work Tyler. Tell me more about the prop shaft and ferrule here. Hows the wire attached?

Regards
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

The stub shaft is centerless precision ground stainless steel tube with a hole matched to the wire diameter size. The wire extends all the way through the stub shaft and is bonded using Loctite 238. The drive dog and nose piece are just secured with set-screws.

[fweasel]

IMG_4022.jpg

Tyler did you machine all of this hardware?

[eXoNerated]

The stub shaft is centerless precision ground stainless steel tube with a hole matched to the wire diameter size. The wire extends all the way through the stub shaft and is bonded using Loctite 238. The drive dog and nose piece are just secured with set-screws.

Tyler,
Is the stub shaft something you made centerless ? or where you able to find 3/16 od 1/8 id for instance. What is the abec and speed rating of the bearings you are using and what type. Are they sealed . Are they full steel or are you running ceramic balls. Do you have to service them?

[RaceMechaniX]

Tyler did you machine all of this hardware?

This particular hardware no. This is borrowed from the the Grim Reaper gas rigger.
Most hardware I modify for my use.
Below is an example of hardware I matched together. The strut blade is from Speedmaster modified for ball bearings. I machined the strudder bracket to hold a CMDi rudder swivel.

DSC_6227.jpgDSC_5638.jpgDSC_5640.jpg

[RaceMechaniX]

Tyler,
Is the stub shaft something you made centerless ? or where you able to find 3/16 od 1/8 id for instance. What is the abec and speed rating of the bearings you are using and what type. Are they sealed . Are they full steel or are you running ceramic balls. Do you have to service them?

The stub shaft material was sourced in Germany. It's a 5mm OD by 2.5mm ID by 1m long. It's cut down to the correct length, turned down to hold a 3/16" drive dog and prop.
The bearings are metric ABEC 5 stainless steel with stainless shields. They are lubed every run and replaced every event or every run depending on their condition.
I have tested ceramic balls with stainless races and full ceramic bearings. The full stainless design lasts the longest and is considered a throw away consumable for SAW.

[eXoNerated]

I guess people would wanna know where the hardware came from. It is quite attractive and stout. Is it available to the masses?


Regards
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

I guess people would wanna know where the hardware came from. It is quite attractive and stout. Is it available to the masses?


Regards
Hubert

Generally speaking no it's not. The hardware was machined in limited numbers to go along with the Grim Reaper Rigger.