Whos making these wire drive coupling systems?

[eXoNerated]

2a09d0ef-a433-4e13-bbd9-2b38151882d4.jpg

Can you help me? I'd like to make a few or buy a few whichever comes first. Is there a link to the original thread from which this came?

Thanks
Hubert

[Dr. Jet]

Not exactly the same, but similar: http://www.rcraceboat.com/StoreCoupler.html

[eXoNerated]

Hi Dr. Jet,
I have all those and they work well but this style is to said to have a TIR of .0001 That would be better than anything seen and as long as there is a slight interference fit the grub screws wont match its gripping power. It also wont mar or dimple the drive line. The modified mill collets carry more weight than I want to on the rotating assembly . I want something light and with a powerful grip and as true as possible. To ensure concentric all from the same end with out removing the workpiece you do the large bore first and the smaller 2nd. The bores are all done from one end and as u can see it is simply one piece with the splits and the counter bored cap heads to clamp the motor shaft and wire. Obviously if you are building it then u can make it for any size wire. I even wounder could a wire ferrule be made this way then props can be saved in the event of a snap. The standard wire bores available wont cut it I'm afraid.

Regards,
Hubert

[Dr. Jet]

The GP-1 connectors I used in the 1/20 scale hydros were of the same design concept and you are 100% correct about grip strength and non-marring. It's a simple enough machining project, but there would be a lot of time invested to make a small quantity. I will follow this thread to see if you find such a creature.

I like the idea of a prop ferrule, but it's probably only plausible for applications larger than I generally tend to use.

[bhorowitz]

Ask Tyler Garrard. I believe he is the one who posted that picture. He is on here a lot.

[bhorowitz]

He goes by RacemechaniX

[RaceMechaniX]

Hello Hubert,
Those are special SAW couplers we made in a small batch for several of us. I am not sure who made the original design, but Jochen at MBP was producing something similar for a while, but not in the size we needed so I designed the one in the pic and they were machined in Germany. They are intended for 8mm LMT motors and a specific 2.5mm wire.

-Tyler

[eXoNerated]

Hi Tyler,

For my next scale I want to move away from bent flextshaft or wire to a long straight one pushing the motor into the canopy. Do you know of any source of rod tru and strong enough to do the job with big motor torque? 4mm ASTM A228 spring steel?
Thanks for your time and patience.
Hubert

[Dr. Jet]

Do you know of any source of rod tru and strong enough to do the job with big motor torque? 4mm ASTM A228 spring steel?

https://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/?cid...ned&view=table

[eXoNerated]

Hi Dr Jet,
No luck as they are all too short for a 1200mm scale hydroplane to mount the motor beneath the canopy. I think the carbon spring steel will work. Just wondering is there a more consistent rod than what K&S offers.

ASTM A228
1590 - 1760 MPa
@Diameter 6.35 mm 231000 - 255000 psi
@Diameter 0.250 in
1640 - 1820 MPa
@Diameter 5.26 mm 238000 - 264000 psi
@Diameter 0.207 in
1690 - 1860 MPa
@Diameter 4.50 mm 245000 - 270000 psi
@Diameter 0.177 in
1740 - 1920 MPa
@Diameter 3.81 mm 252000 - 278000 psi
@Diameter 0.150 in
1770 - 1950 MPa
@Diameter 3.56 mm 257000 - 283000 psi
@Diameter 0.140 in
1800 - 1990 MPa
@Diameter 3.18 mm 261000 - 289000 psi
@Diameter 0.125 in
1870 - 2070 MPa
@Diameter 2.54 mm 271000 - 300000 psi
@Diameter 0.100 in
1940 - 2150 MPa
@Diameter 2.00 mm 281000 - 312000 psi
@Diameter 0.0787 in
2020 - 2230 MPa
@Diameter 1.60 mm 293000 - 323000 psi
@Diameter 0.0630 in
2090 - 2310 MPa
@Diameter 1.30 mm 303000 - 335000 psi
@Diameter 0.0512 in
2170 - 2410 MPa
@Diameter 1.00 mm 315000 - 350000 psi
@Diameter 0.0394 in
2250 - 2490 MPa
@Diameter 0.810 mm 326000 - 361000 psi
@Diameter 0.0319 in
2350 - 2600 MPa
@Diameter 0.610 mm 341000 - 377000 psi
@Diameter 0.0240 in
2500 - 2760 MPa
@Diameter 0.400 mm 363000 - 400000 psi
@Diameter 0.0157 in
2600 - 2880 MPa
@Diameter 0.300 mm 377000 - 418000 psi
@Diameter 0.0118 in
2750 - 3040 MPa
@Diameter 0.200 mm 399000 - 441000 psi
@Diameter 0.00787 in
3030 - 3340 MPa
@Diameter 0.100 mm 439000 - 484000 psi
@Diameter 0.00394 in

Modulus of Elasticity 210 GPa 30500 ksi
Poissons Ratio 0.313 0.313 Calculated
Shear Modulus 80.0 GPa 11600 ksi

Thanks,
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

Hubert,

You need to tell us more about your boat and power system so we can recommend a driveline.
Generally I do not recommend wire drives over flex cables unless you are running SAW or have an application like a mono with front mounted motor and barely any bend in the shaft.
Brent Byers on Jim's RC Boat Dock does build 3mm wire drives for gas motors which are very durable, but you will need a special collet to couple it.

If you are running a truly high torque/high pole count motor a 1/4" flex cable is hard to beat. If 1/4" is not enough I believe some gas model boat supply shops are building 5/16" flex cables.

so first let's hear about your power system.

[Dr. Jet]

Yeah, the longest shaft I saw there was 350mm. They do have longer lengths in larger diameters (I just gave a link for 4mm shafts). Maybe two 350mm shafts with a pillow block bearing and a flex coupling in the middle? I have another thought: The driveshafts on our (RWD) vehicles is a hollow tube with a U-joint at either end. Maybe an appropriate length 4130 aircraft tubing would make a decent shaft, then you could get somebody with a lathe to make appropriate ends for it, braze (or TIG weld) it all together and chrome plate it. Don't know if it would be true enough for the kind of RPMs needed.... Maybe intermediate bearings?

See: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...clickkey=39109

Here is an 8mm precision ground 420 stainless steel shaft that is 1 meter long: http://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/produ...0PX0MCHS08-A00

[eXoNerated]

4 wing bud2.jpg
strut from the bottom.jpg

I want to run a straight shaft with a low angle of attack between 3 and 4 mm with the motor all the way up in the canopy of the boat. I found some precision shafts in Germany up to 2 meters in bearing grade stainless. A 8 mm one meter shaft would be a great alignment tool, but its larger than I would need. Surge Power is in the 10-20kW range. 4mm should be enuf 3 would probably work. Here's my friend from Germany's <1000mm T4 boat as an example. Here can see the 4mm shaft of carbon spring steel coupled to a 2215 Neumotor.


Regards.
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

Hubert do you have a motor selected yet?
I would opt for 5mm straight shaft if you really want to run one. This would allow you to pass the shaft through a ball bearing supported strut and mount the prop directly on the shaft assuming you are running a 3/16" or 5mm prop. If you run 1/4" bore props you will need a precision stub shaft. Perhaps you can use a stub shaft from the large cats.

[eXoNerated]

Hi Tyler.
About the OEM motors. It seems our bodies put the 15XX Neu at a disadvantage slating it against any 22xx s lehner or 370 in scale FE unlimited hydro.

Section J Fast Electric Rev. 2019

e. Only one brushed motor of any type or one brushless motor from the following types, Lehner22xx series, Neu 15xx series and Plett 370. Any other brushless motor is subject to technical approval.

Is this also the case for S&T sport hydro?

Those last two motors are larger than even the 1530. The new FE scale powerplant rules confuses me even more. It says the added motors cannot be used for speed trails? Not that id want to run one of those added but why? Wat determines if a motor would be approved or not. The idea of "excessive hardware" is worded in there somewhere.

Is there a reason brass sleeves equally spaced wont work with the 3/16 wire? The other issue is how to fasten all this on the prop end. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Hubert.

[RaceMechaniX]

OK, so you want to build a scale boat. Do you plan on racing the boat within IMPBA and NAMBA?

IMPBA only allows 3 motors officially, but have a slightly larger list to include TP4070's and Leopard motors I believe. I could not find the official announcement on expanding the motor list. These motors are eligible to race, but not set any records. Best to reach out to our National FE Director Mike Ball on the legal motors. His contact info is on the "officers" tab of the IMPBA site.

All of the motors listed can be competitive with the right set-up.

Again I would advise against a stiff solid shaft drive system, run a 3/16" or 1/4" flex cable or use a 3mm wire. All of those will allow a bend in the cable and some compliance in the alignment of the components.

[eXoNerated]

Hi Tyler,
Ill look at 3mm wire but I still prefer going to a straight shaft .
I don't see how a neu 1527/1530 is fairly classed with a 2280 LMT. There's a significant difference in these two machines with respect to mass and mechanical capability. I have the list . Ball posted the addendum. It is on the home page very top of the list, and it states that none of them can be used for speed trails which I don't understand. I'm an already a IMPBA member.

FE 1/8 Scale Motor Technical Notice
As a result of a BOD discussion surrounding the limited options for FE 1/8 Scale motors, we would like all IMPBA districts to allow the following motors listed below be allowed to run in the FE 1/8 Scale Class.This is, of course, in addition to the currently approved motors that are listed in the IMBPA rulebook. It should also be stated the motors listed below CANNOT be used for record trials.While at the local level clubs have ALWAYS been able to make alterations to the national rule set for their local events in an effort to encourage participation, this public request is an effort to establish a common agreement between districts allowing those with FE 1/8 scale boats to travel outside of their home club or district and be allowed to race the class with one of the motors listed above.The ONLY request the IMPBA has is to provide feedback. The more detail you can provide to the organization the better! This will allow the IMPBA to be better informed with actual data in racing conditions. All feedback can be communicated directly back to the IMPBA National Fast Electric Director.Contact information can be found on the IMPBA Website.
Best Regards,
Mike Ball

TP Power TP4070
HET Typhoon 700-98
Turnigy SK3 3994
Leopard 4092

I don't get it about not using these motors for SAW.


Thanks
Hubert

[eXoNerated]

Hi Dr.Jet/Tyler,

I've found the 3.175mm wire. So lets try this. If I need a slight bend the possibility is now there. @ Tyler have you gone as deep as trying to balance the props stub shaft with the drive dog in place? What material did you use to make the couplers out of?


Thanks,
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

Hubert,

If you are building a straightway boat you will need to use one of the three approved motors. The Plett is dated and I am unsure if it is competitive anymore. A Neu 1530 and LMT 2280 are similar sized and power output motors, but their characteristics are different. Neu motors are 4-poles which like to be run at lower speed ranges compared to the 2-pole LMT's. The biggest factor in choosing a motor is which controller will you use. The LMT is easy to drive with just about any controller, however the Neu can be difficult with some controllers. You will want to use 10S for a SAW boat to maximize the power with a limited amperage range from available controllers.

I do not balance my stub shafts, but do ensure the components are a tight fit and symmetric. By symmetric I mean my drive dogs have two set-screws on opposite sides.
The couplers we machined are from 7075 aluminum. Franz Spannagel makes some nice 8mm to ER11 collet type couplers. You can buy ER11 collets from any industrial supply house, Amazon or McMaster Carr. They are available in inch and metric sizes so you can use 3mm or 1/8" wire. https://www.facebook.com/pg/CNC-Fr%C...4118732/about/

IMG_20171209_143745.jpgcoupling.jpg

[eXoNerated]

Hi Tyler,
I will contact FranZ to get the collets. I have contacted Steve and inquired about a 1530 with high speed F5D rotor option. I will decide between it and the 2260/80. I find the 2260 a more direct comparison size wize. The 2280 extra 100 grams will make a different on overall power output. Generally speaking more iron can produce more power. Of the three it will likely carry the most. Nonetheless I'm def not oppsed to a 2280 :)

The ADP Pro HV 20s 300 is the most power dense in the world and can do 40kW.
Right now I dont think theres anything better, off a shelf for us.

Regards,
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

If you are running a Scale in SAW you likely want as much motor as possible given the restricted options. I would only choose a 2280 or 1530. Do not go too hot with the KV. Cars and planes can allow for hot set-ups, but boats are unforgiving. If you opt for the 1530 look at the 1Y or the 1.5D. Any hotter and you are asking for a dumpster fire. If you go with the LMT 2280 look for a 6 or 7 wind. BTW, the LMT motors are an "ironloss" design and for short bursts have exceptional power output if the motor controller can drive the current necessary.

I know the APD controllers look nice on paper, but I believe they are not compatible with traditional ground type radios. They were designed for quadcopters with very fast frame rates and special protocols. several friends have tried these without success. Those controllers also have no liquid cooling option which is a must for a SAW boat.

The most desirable speed control for SAW is the out of production "old" Schulze 40.160wk. It is near unobtainable and those who have them do not sell them except for crazy money.
Other proven ESC's include MGM's (25064, 40063, 80063, 28026, 25035), converted Castle's (Edge/ICE 200) and Kontronik (Kosmik 300).
I can vouch for those listed above. There are other ESC's from Swordfish, ZTW and other's, but have not run any of them so I will not comment.

[eXoNerated]

They are not ironless they are slotless. No cogging detent. An air coil with a 2 pole wouldnt make much torque. The coils are pressed inside an iron ring..larger airgap than a slotted neu. If the class has no minimum voltage you can run the high kv at lower voltage hi c parallel packs. The mechanical limit is more of an issue. High rpms. A high speed rotor is requested but not necessarily a hot motor who knows. A lower voltage setup might utilize lith supercapacitors for enuf surge current .APD has a better board design and capabilities than them all.. smaller and lighter. None of them can run a high pole outrunner at 100000 rpm but this can. It can run a lower induction motor than any of the drives mentioned with 3 times the pwm. Probably
The issue some have with the competition wound Neu. The adjustable brake is synchronous rectified just like mgm. A 1200.00 dollar drive this is. The price of Schulze 40.160 wk no issue. Again my prefrence drive can do 40kw. And runs over 1000000 erpms. It also has low pass and notch filtering through a beta flight card using dshot protocol. The " marine " controllers have nothing in these regards.

Regards
Hubert.

[eXoNerated]

A slotless iron core and various carbon steel wires and brass tubing picked up today.

Regards ,
Hubert

[eXoNerated]

@ Tyler
Here is their 1980 uf 100 volt cap bank. I had the prototype b4 anyone on the forums direct from ADP. Now Steve sells them all. It is a balance array put together with transistors and diodes. When has the other manufacturers put so much time into caps? It also has the internal array of discrete MLCC's. Check it out.

Regards
Hubert

[NativePaul]

You have me very intrigued by this Hubert. I am not an electrical engineer by any stretch of the imagination, can you explain this to a layman like me please.

I know caps increase in size, weight and cost for the same capacity the higher the voltage rating is, and I know from my datalogs that coming off the throttle can generate extra voltage above the battery voltage, but most ESCs use a cap rating 20% with an overhead of above their battery voltage rating at most, and my datalogs have never shown that much. What is the advantage to using 100v caps in a 10 cell 42v nominal boat for a voltage overhead of near 140%? Are there peaks this high that are of too short a duration to show up on my datalogs?

Maybe I am off on my definitions, I think of transistors as switches, diodes as one way valves, and I have never heard of MLCCs, what do these components do together, and how do they help flatten out the ripple voltage? all i can imagine is that it is able to switch between having all 8 caps in parallel and having 2s4p for less capacity but much lower resistance, though I dont know how it would switch it appropriately, or even know when it would want to.
You call it a balance array and I don't understand that either, is its purpose even still to flatten out the ripple voltage, or are you hooking each cell up to one of these and using it to keep the cells in balance somehow?

[eXoNerated]

Hi Paul,
Miss your site....
MLCC = multilayer ceramic capacitors. Paul 100 volt caps wont do anything any different at 42 volts but the drive will run up to 20S so the cap bank broadly accommodates these voltages. You see the array of MLCC to compliment the electrolytic. In my own bank boards I solder these between the legs of the electrolytic. You see the typical 63volt caps on a 12s drive. U see how compact the drive is. As you know a larger cap has a longer RC charge time and the MLCC have very short RC time so they accommodate the faster transients much better than the bulk electrolytic. Using them in compliment with electrolytic is a sound practice but I know no one else in hobby that does it. They have success without it so I guess this is just one of those finite things someone at the edge may consider.

Here is a photo of the 200F3 12 s lipo .
thDC12AW5Q.jpg

MLCC



A lesson on Synchronous Rectification
Freewheeling on another level. What MGM and APD use

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_rectification

[eXoNerated]

Hi Paul
This is a 40 ampere 6s drive I received long ago. It can peak over 100 amperes with heat sink so this little drive is over a hp. It's .3grams.

Regards
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

My mistake Hubert, you are correct the LMT's are slotless not ironless.
I'll be watching intently to see if the APD ESC's work.
Do you plan on running at Elizabeth City?

[eXoNerated]

Hi Tyler ,
I dont think Id be ready by then. We haven't spoken about the boat yet. But anyway here is a log from a german speed plane. This is without any water cooling. 22 Kw barely breathing at 399 amperes.


BTW
I forgot to tell you.The Pro HV accepts all radio input protocols including pwm. The other drives have pwm firmware options and can be user flashed or pre flashed at the factory. Neu can also flash them for you. Of course I would likely be the first to use it in a high performance model boat of this nature but the relationship I have with APD is very good therefore whatever I find is great for us.We can help them develop an appropriate firmware if need be but for what we are doing it def has balls. But like Shulze and anything else of course it could be smoked. It does have current limiting and seems to mitigate excessive overcurrent situations quite well. From the design standpoint the fets on it are newer and more efficient and carry more copper than those used on the Wk's of old.

We will see.

[eXoNerated]

Hi Tyler,
What is the milliampere hour maximum allowed in S & T hydro and Sport Hydro? Im scouting Everette B. Jordan lake for coves.Its only a few miles from my place. In the morning you can find glass. This would be closer to you and you could test and tune there no issues. For some reason morning always host smooth water. There are some beach areas that would be ideal for launches and many times unoccupied so there's no one around.

Regards,
Hubert