Brushless motor winding class

[donhuff]

That’s interesting. I forgot you mentioned a bit about this. I look for a certain KV at times that would turn a certain prop on a certain size hull to avoid going too big on prop on smaller hulls that may cause walking.

Yes Ray, and that's a good reason to select a certain kv, ie. because you have a range of prop sizes in mind for a certain hull.

[ray schrauwen]

If 2900kv has better power, go ahead.

[ray schrauwen]

I was going to say 2 turns but only b3cause the drawing has wires coming out of both ends sort of. It may have been drawn like that for clarity.

[ray schrauwen]

Now I’m thinking 2.5 y

[donhuff]

I was close! I can understand winding the motor easier with the round cross sectional drawing.

I agree with you Ray that picture makes the wind LOOK easier, it is, BUT that is not how we do our motors. That is a CONCENTRATED type of wind. That means that the wire goes around ONE TOOTH ONLY to make a coil!! Look at that pic again to see what I mean. In our motors, we do a DISTRIBUTED type of wind. In it we go in one slot, skip two slots, and go out on the third slot. REMEMBER??? And then the other two phases fill in those skipped slots, so all of our coils overlap each other and it tends to look very confusing.


concentrated vs distributed.jpg

[ray schrauwen]

Ok, I understand.

[ray schrauwen]

I don’t get too much quiet time to myself here so when I go back to my apartment I’ll really go over this and start some carnage.

[donhuff]

Damnit Ray you're right. 2.5 it is.

In my first looks at that picture, I didn't notice that the wire was going out each end of the coil. My fault. And after looking again I still was not positive. So i went out to the shop and got a piece of wire, and wrapped it around my POLE..............ah, finger. Looks like 2.5 to me now.

[T.S.Davis]

Don, it's back peddling to a desired prop. Little too micro managment on my part.

[donhuff]

Don, on the 4 turn DDD example do we end up with three dead teeth again?

Also... that particular arrangement will produce a Kv of X. What ever it is I don't really know. Lets say I use the tach and it comes out at 1500kv or so but I really wanted 1600 for example. Could I just take one turn out of the center coil so that it's 4,3,4? Just trying to make sure I'm getting it.

OK I got you.

Terry, There is no way that I can predict what the kv of a, strange to me, motor will be. It all depends on the combination of parts, poles, and sizes, of all the components on the inside of that motor. I can make a wild ass guess, but it would be based on the knowledge that I have gotten by working on similar motors. If I can do a couple of test winds using one strand of cat5, I can sort of see what it doing and get a baseline to figure from. Then it's a percentage of the length of the wire in the bundle, that a PER TURN change makes in that length. But it's still just a good guess. There are programs that you can use to guess with, but they get to complicated for me.And a 100 rpm change in kv is hard to come by with the low turn counts that our motors are usually wound at.

I see what you're saying with leaving the one turn off of a 6 pole 18 slot motor, changing the kv just 100, and it might work. Do a test wind and find out! They are not hard to do nor to get back out. And it would be good experience.

And I'll say this about it. IF you are dealing with one of our chinese motors, and you are rewinding it, and choose to wind it 434 like you suggest. You will still end up with more total power that the motor had before winding, because NONE of their slots are full. And while typing this I thought of something else, there are no ends to the possibilities if you think "outside the box" and don't listen to the "experts"

"I edited this paragraph and deleted what was here before, because it was all wrong', sorry if any of you read it and wondered what I meant."



But now lets work at it from a different direction.


Suppose that you have this prop you want to run, because it did very well with your stock 2000 dyna. BUT it gets hot in a few laps, and maybe burned up when you tried to go 6 laps with it.

IF you increase the power output and heat handling and dissipation abilities of your motor and SETUP, I'll bet that you will be amazed at how fast that same motor will go with the same kv and prop.

[properchopper]

OK - I have no right to be in this thread - I try to follow what's going on but I have to stop every few seconds and beat myself on the head with a frozen trout to regain my mental composure BUT all this wire winding talk reminded me of my days in the sound reinforcement biz (early 1970's) when I took a tour of the JBL speaker plant and saw the weird gadgets they used to flatwind the speaker voice coil wire - the idea being that they could wind more flat wire into the coil than if round (which then went into the ring magnet gap) to make more efficient loudspeakers. You are all probably way ahead of me on this but I'm in quaranteen/lockdown and ...whatever

Wire 20200517_120523 (1).jpg

[donhuff]

Frozen Trout


Good one Tony, we use catfish in Georgia!

I have read about the flat wire. There are some motors that have used it too. But they are a lot bigger than our stuff.

[ray schrauwen]

Aaah, flat wire by JBL. I remember that too. Fairly easy with a voice coil but who knows with this.

I can’t remember if it was the Cerwin Vega or JBL show when I was a kid at the Toronto Audio show that had a 3 foot diameter subwoofer. They played Ted Nugent’s Land of a Thousand Dances and I was never the same. It gave me the audio bug like crazy! Then I got a Grasshopper, then I made a 23” BlueBlaster and then got addicted.

[TRUCKPULL]

Attachment 169219


Lets have a little test, to see if ya'll have been understand what I've been preaching about.

In the picture above, I want you to describe the motor to me. It's laid out differently that the way I have been drawing them, but it's still showing you the same thing, only in a more congested but all together and round layout. More like a real motor would look if you were to slice it in half across the shaft.


I want to know. Click on the pic to make it big enough to see well.

1 number of turns
2 number of poles
3 number of slots/teeth
4 and the hard one, wye or delta. This might be a little hard for you because of the way it's drawn, but remember it all about where the ends of the wire END.

Don
Terry said it first 5 Turn.
Is their not 5 wires in each slot??

Larry

[ray schrauwen]

Aaargh!#*%@. I went back and started reading from beginning. I?m having a hard time visualizing the starting of winding the bundles even with pictures in post 1 &2.

I?m really a tactile or hands on learner. I better go butcher a motor, lol. I have to have it in my hands to figure it out.

Sorry I slacked on the reading at the beginning Don, I?m a lazy 👩*!**🎓 student dontcha know? Lol...

More reading. I?ll get it eventually.

[ray schrauwen]

Is a Leo 4092 harder to get stator out compared to other motors? It’s longer so I assume so..?

I want to play but I don’t want to butcher anything either. I should have brought a cooked gold motor.

[ray schrauwen]

Hey Larry, you want to team up sometime to do some of this together? When is a big question these days...

We could be the Canadian motor winding connection. At least if I get by schiznits together I could get something going.

I like doing stuff like this and I’ve got lots to practice with, in runners and out runners.

[donhuff]

Don
Terry said it first 5 Turn.
Is their not 5 wires in each slot??

Larry

Larry,

I'm thinking that I shouldn't have used that picture for the test. Because it is a concentrated wind, and I have not learned ya'll about them yet. I see the difference and pay it no attention but ya'll don't know how to do that yet. Another mistake on my part.

I think ya'll are looking at the slots and counting wires, and not seeing that half of those wires are a different color.

Follow a wire color in to a slot and around a tooth, that's the turns on this type. So you'll have wire going one way in a slot for one tooth, and on the other side of that same slot, the wire will be going the other way because it going around the next tooth in line.

[donhuff]

Is a Leo 4092 harder to get stator out compared to other motors? It’s longer so I assume so..?

I want to play but I don’t want to butcher anything either. I should have brought a cooked gold motor.

Ray, the easiest motor out there to do is the dyna 2000kv. Because it comes apart a lot easier and can be unwound without messing up the stator insulation. The leopards are not bad to unwind either, but they can be hard to get the stator out of. They tend to use a lot of glue on those stators.

And yes, a 4092 is a big motor with a lot of glue on it. works a lot better in a press.

[TRUCKPULL]

SUB's

http://www.facebook.com/wayne.schutt...3MjgyNjkxMTI1/


Larry

[donhuff]

I like it Larry

[ray schrauwen]

Thanks Don. Do you use and rubber or plastic between press and stator? I have 1/16” rubber sheet I use for gripping motor cases, might go easier on insulation.

[donhuff]

Neither Ray, I use steel and aluminum.

You should be pushing on the windings, not the stator. Your going to rip the wire out anyway aren't you. Doesn't matter if you hurt them.

[bogieboy]

OK - I have no right to be in this thread - I try to follow what's going on but I have to stop every few seconds and beat myself on the head with a frozen trout to regain my mental composure BUT all this wire winding talk reminded me of my days in the sound reinforcement biz (early 1970's) when I took a tour of the JBL speaker plant and saw the weird gadgets they used to flatwind the speaker voice coil wire - the idea being that they could wind more flat wire into the coil than if round (which then went into the ring magnet gap) to make more efficient loudspeakers. You are all probably way ahead of me on this but I'm in quaranteen/lockdown and ...whatever

Wire 20200517_120523 (1).jpg

Epic played with flat winds on thier brushed motors... i still have a 10x2 flat wind armature out of an epic shock that i used to run in mod TC carpet racing...LOL that was about the fastest spooling 10 turn on the market at the time...

[donhuff]

Looking at a few pictures of some of those epic motors, they appear to have been and expensive brand. I especially like the one in a wooden box.

[donhuff]

I hear in a private text last night, that I have a "student" who has successfully wound and run a motor on the workbench! Sez, that he will try it out in a boat this Wednesday.

Don't know why he's not bragging about it unless he's skeered that when he puts a load on it, it'll go POOF!

[T.S.Davis]

hahah I wound it once. Murdered it trying to get it back in the can. Re-wound it again. This time I made sure my stator was going to slip right in without man handling it. I also made a few cheesy tools out of oak to make my life easier. Turns out 3/4" dowel slides right in to a Dynamite stator. I was able to press the winds with the dowel, some blocks, and my trusty bench vice.

This motor died at the Florida race. All my boats took a pounding with the wind. I thought it was just a solder joint from the 1/4 throttle peddling we all did. Nope. Something else. Inside it didn't look or smell baked. Who knows. Came apart pretty easy. I suspect the Kv is now exactly the same which is all I was really after.

Guys, don't be afraid to try this. It's not that hard. Even if you do the CCW/CW wind. Although that one is clearly harder to thread. The absolute scariest part of the whole thing is stripping the leads. Another word of advice. DO NOT get that lye/salt crap on your skin. Obviously not when it's molten but not after either. Wear glasses and yer heat gloves too.

[bogieboy]

Looking at a few pictures of some of those epic motors, they appear to have been and expensive brand. I especially like the one in a wooden box.

thats the one i have...all hand wound stators and with the billet machined endbell and everything.... trinityepic19motor.jpg

[donhuff]

Terry,

I'll be outside a lot on Wednesday, I'll keep my nose in the air waiting for "that smell" of burning Dynamite!!!! LOL

Use the same prop that you normally run on that setup, unless you want to back off a little to be sure and get a successful first run. Don't expect a big increase in power on that motor because you didn't add but a little bit of copper if any, you might not even see a small increase IF YOU USE THE SAME PROP,. The big advantage comes from using a lot more prop, but because of the better wire, it doesn't burn up AS EASILY. It will still burn up, but it will be able to take a lot more before it does.


We had problems with that motor pushing it hard, after rewinding, melting the connectors off. I now use high temp solder and a butane torch to put the connectors on with, and they don't fall off anymore.

[donhuff]

thats the one i have...all hand wound stators and with the billet machined endbell and everything.... trinityepic19motor.jpg

Cool looking motor!