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Thread: Brushless motor winding class

  1. #1
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    Default Brushless motor winding class

    I'll try to explain some of the workings of our motors as best I understand it, and show how I go about rewinding a stator. I feel that I need to lay down some basics about the internals of the motors first. And to describe some of the terminology, so that we all understand each other without getting to confused. I'll capitalize the main parts when I describe them so pay attention to what I'm naming parts so we wont get confused later. And please call me out on something if you think I'm wrong or describing it incorrectly. I have not been schooled on any of this, it's just what I have learned on my own by reading and rewinding a couple of motors. And to give you an idea of how many motors that I have rewound so far. I just bought my 8th, 5 pound spool of wire. Each spool has 7850 feet of wire on it! 62800 feet or just shy of 12 miles! I am NOT claiming to know everything there is to know about these motors, but I do have a pretty good understanding of how they work and how too wind them.

    There aren't very many parts inside and I'll assume that ya'll know what a rotor is. So the main thing to explain is the stator and windings.

    The STATOR as I'm sure most of you know is the big chunk of steel surrounding the rotor. It holds the wires or BUNDLES of wires that are threaded through holes in the stator, called SLOTS. The wire goes through the slots and wraps around the stators TEETH, maybe just around one tooth, as in a CONCENTRATED wind. Or the wire can go around three teeth as in a DISTRIBUTED wind, More about this a lot later in this thread. When the wire goes through those slots, and wraps around those teeth, it does so in a particular couple of ways. One is that the wire will go around and round said tooth to form a COIL. This coil can be either one wire, or several wires that are eventually connected on both ends so as to act like one larger wire, and this is what I refer to as a BUNDLE. We have to use the bundle because we can't get just one big wire through the slots and make the 180* turn to go down the next slot. One big wire would be better but it ain't gonna happen! So when you make this coil you might wind it clockwise or counter clockwise. And ya better get it right! You'll be able to see on some of my pictures later, that the wind is following a certain CW or CCW pattern. Most of the winds that I use follow this CW or CCW pattern all the way around the stator. BUT THEN sometimes you get one that will have both CW and CCW in the same stator and it can get a little confusing. The Dynamite 3831 2000 kv 3 delta motor, is an example of this type of wind. (that last sentence has a "misprint" in it that I hope someone catches and points out)!

    The reason for the CW and CCW explanation is, if you connect a battery to a coil one wire on positive, and the other on the negative (don't know how you'd do it any other way) and the coil has a hole through the middle. And now insert a steel rod through that hole, or wrap the wire coil around a screwdriver. Take a magnet and hold it to the ends of the rod, making sure to use only one side (pole) of that magnet. You notice that the electro magnet that you made with the coil and rod has a north and a south. NOW switch the polarity of the wires going to your coil,and check the rod ends again, using that same side (pole) of the magnet. you'll see that the poles of the electro magnet have switched! Amazing isn't it!

    So in the coils that we made in our stator, lets say we made them all CCW, and so when the esc sends these coils a positive signal, lets say the stator teeth turn into north poles. This attracts the south pole magnets on the rotor. Just as the rotor gets about lined up on that position, the esc switches (commutates) and sends a negative signal to the coils, and this changes our stator coil teeth to a south pole, and thus attracts the upcoming north pole on the rotor! This is a very simplified explanation and not real accurate, because ther will be positive and negative charges flowing at the same time. And there will be north and south coils working at the same time too. And don't forget that third set of coils that aren't being energized, but instead are making electricty and sending a pulse back to the esc saying, here I am send positive down that wire--now here I am send negative down that wire-- now I'm over here do this. That esc is a smart and fast little sucker.

    The STATOR has an insulating coating on it to keep the windings from shorting between legs/phases. We have three wires going from the esc to the motor and these are what we'll call LEGs or PHASEs. I don't think that is an accurate way to describe them because on a true AC (alternating current) 3 phase electrical circuit, all three phases are hot . Not so on our DC brushless system. Two legs are hot, from the positive and negative poles of the battery/esc, and the third leg is carrying a "signal voltage" from the motor windings, back to the esc, called BACK EMF (electromotive force) generated by the third legs coil. This signal tells the esc what position the rotor is in, in it's rotation, so that the esc knows which set of coils to fire next.

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    DSC_0004.jpg

    Here you can see a freshly reinsulated stator. Yo see the 18 holes in it that are called the SLOTS.

    In between the slots are whats called the TEETH, and these are what makes the magnet poles of the stator. The inner most portion of the tooth nearest the rotor, is what will do the work.

    With this stator we will be doing what I describe earlier as a DISTRIBUTED type of winding, meaning that we will wrap the wire around three teeth at a time instead of just one at a time. The wire will go in one slot then skip two slots, and go back up in the third slot. The other two legs will eventually fill the two slots that we left empty. So you can see that the coils overlap each other.

    This is a 2 TURN wind, so each BUNDLE of wire making up a LEG will go around each set of three TEETH that make up a COIL, twice. The last pic in the string below shows one completed coil that was wound CCW. All of the coils in this wind will be CCW. And in that last pic you can see that after coming up and out to finish the second pass in the right side slot of that coil, we now SKIP TWO SLOTS (from now on were going say sts to mean skip two slots cause you do it a lot) and go back in and down through. This will be the same thing that we did on the first coil. In a slot out the bottom sts and back up and out, that's one TURN, now going backward winding CCW go back into where we started this coil for your second pass down. Out the bottom sts and back up for the second turn and out the top again. That's two coils finished one more to go.

    DSC_0011.jpgDSC_0012.jpgDSC_0013.jpgDSC_0015.jpg

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    Isn't the 3831 motor designated as 1.5D wind? Is that the misprint?

    Anyway, I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for the next installment. Thanks
    Ron - The Villages, FL

    https://castawaysboatworx.org/

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    DSC_0016.jpgDSC_0019.jpg

    Here were working on that second coil, and finished with it we STS and start on the third coil.

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    winner winner chicken dinner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    yes, THEY describe it as a 1.5 D but I have no idea why. It's a 3 D the way I see it. It's an oddly done one in that it goes two turns then STS and do one turn CW and go back through the slot that has the two passes already through it, and that makes three don't it????

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    This is great Don. Clearly I'm going to have to get a practice stator to hone my winding skills (which I have none). Do you use a stator from one motor, rotor from an other , new bearings , new correct wire?
    Don't really want a 10 turn AQ motor with 3300 kv or so, but would like to make a stout motor for the class.
    Thx, Jay.

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    DSC_0022.jpg

    Here were coming up and out of the second turn on the third coil. I see now that I should have done this with a single wire to make things easier to see. I sometimes use single strands of cat5 cable to test a wind. The colored insulation on that wire makes it easier to see what's going where. I may stop her because I'm tired of doing this!!! And do it over using the cat5 wire. But I'll start back up here where we stopped. Unless it to confuzzzzzing and I need to go back over it.

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    I should have said before that the last picture shows the completion of the three coils for the first LEG. We have two more sets of three coils coming later. So we have 9 coils in all. But now, you should have an idea of how the slots and teeth and coils come into play.

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    Keep it coming. I could read this stuff all day.
    Vac-U-Tug Jr (13mph)

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    " Do you use a stator from one motor, rotor from an other , new bearings , new correct wire? " AHHH I have been known to do that.


    " Don't really want a 10 turn AQ motor with 3300 kv or so, but would like to make a stout motor for the class."

    10 turns on an AQ is going to be a SLOW motor. The 2030kv is a 2 turn wye, I sometimes wind them at 3 delta and that gets around 2400 kv. 4 delta gets 1800 kv. So ya see that about a 25% increase in the length of wire that's going around a single coil results in about a 25% decrease in kv. The percentages change as you get more or less turns as to how it effects the kv percentage wise. But you see a high turn count is usually a low kv, and vice-versa low turns equals high kv. And Delta is 1.73 times Wye kv for the same number of turns.

    I know that you were just using that as an example, but I wanted to explain that a little.

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    Very nice Don and thank you!

    Reading...
    Nortavlag Bulc

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    What are you re-insulating with? I can see where mine is chipped. Dead short int he making.

    I am struggling to follow the pattern. Might not help me with my first one anyway. Trying to do a Dyno 2k.

    It also appears you've attached your bundle to a piece of solid wire. Almost like a sewing needle. Makes sense. Just not sure how ya did it.
    Noisy person

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    To patch little chips in the stator insulation, I use thick ca. Sometimes have to put 2-3 coats to get it built up like I want, especially on the corners of the slot holes.

    I suggest you just yank the wire out of your stator and get it cleaned up. Don't try to follow the pattern cause I can explain it to you here, and that wind is an odd one and very confusing until you understand a more simple wind.

    NO, the wire is not attached to a needle, I turn the wire into a needle. Pics will explain.

    DSC_0005.jpg
    I figure out how long the wire bundle needs to be by using a single strand of cat5 wire. Leave 5-6 inches outside the stator to eventually become the lead for one leg, and then thread a single leg all the way around the stator leaving 5-6 inches on the exit wire to make one of the other leg leads, and add 6-8 inches more to the length to use to make the sewing needle.

    I then screw a couple of sheet rock screws into the workbench at this length, and wrap wire around them to make my "BUNDLE" Keep the wire taught and it will be easier to work with.

    DSC_0006.jpgDSC_0007.jpg

    On one end using a small piece of folded sandpaper, 220-120 grit works good. Now sand the insulation off as best you can on a section 3-4 inches long. It needs to be clean as the CA will not stick to the insulation that well, plus this will make the diameter of the needle smaller. After sanding, wrap a piece of wire around the sanded part try to keep the strands all in a straight line and not spiraling around your needle. This will keep the needles diameter smaller.

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    DSC_0008.jpgDSC_0009.jpg


    Using scissors or dikes, cut your bundle off of the screws, and unwrap the wire holding your needle together. File a point on it to make it easier to get through the other wire in a slot. I use a 1" belt sander to form the point cause it's quicker but a file does ok too. Always be sure to sand or file towards the point, or you'll pull up a strand or two and make a mess of the needle. Sand the outside of the needle now to get rid of the ridges made by the glue sticking to the wrap. Put another coat of CA on the needle now to hopefully lock down all the strands.
    DO NOT get the ca close to the "threaded" end of the needle where the wires start to flare out, as this will lock them in place, fanned out a little, and you'll never get it through the slots on your 2 or third pass, with other passes already in the slot.

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    At this point lets stop.

    Terry, you said that your trying to figure out the wind, and wanting to make up your bundle. DON"T not yet anyway.

    FIRST, I'll TRY to explain that wind later, but for now let's learn one that is a little more simple and will accomplish the same thing, And what I mean by that is That the DYNM3831 2000 has a 3 delta wind the way I look at it, but it goes about the wind in a different manner than a regular 3 delta. And the "regular" one is a lot more simple to see and understand. I have wound the same motor both ways, and they both turn out with the same kv, so I don't quite see the point of the odd way of doing it other than it spreads the wire out a little more.

    SECOND, For your first attempts at winding. Lets use just one, or maybe 4-5 strands of wire. OR Like I suggested earlier. Get some cat 5 cable, telephone wire, or some sort of cable with a bunch of strands in it of different colored insulated wires. These make it way easier to see what your doing and if you get a leg out of place. Of course you should use different colors for the three legs. And at the end, you can actually run the motor on a single strand of the cat5 24AWG wire. Don't put a load on it though as it wont take much to over heat it.

    And for me to explain the winds, your going to have to use some imagination, To understand my drawings. If I just show pics of the process while threading a real stator, they will all look about the same after just a few passes through the slots. It's gonna be a long slow process as I'll have to draw, take picture, post pics and write comments.

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    DSC_0002.jpg

    Here we have a simple 3 turn coil. Connect a battery to these two wires, positive on one and negative to the other. Put a piece of steel rod through the middle of it and it will be a magnet with a north pole on one end and a south pole on the other end.

    DSC_0003.jpg

    Here, we have just the wire of one leg of a 18 slot stator winding. You can see at the far left at #1S (s for start), that the wire goes down, then loops around three times to make a coil. Then it moves over to your right, and makes another 3 turn coil. Then to the right again and makes another 3 turns and then straight up to terminate at #1F--- f, for finish.

    DSC_0004.jpg

    Now, it starts to get a little congested when we add the second set of three coils. This second leg starts in the slot right beside the other one (on a delta, not so on a wye). But this set of coils is exactly like the first set only moved over one slot. Hopefully you can see the colors good enough. This is my third drawing so it aint gonna get no better!

    DSC_0005.jpg

    JEEZZZZ with the third set of coils added, it gets really hard to tell what's going on. But when doing the actual winding, you'll have only one set of holes left to fill, and if you did right with the first two legs, those hole will all be in the right position.

    But this one is the same exact as the other two, just moved over two slots from where we started with leg 1.

    See how all the coils are wound CCW? That's why were learning this wind first because it the simplest one out there. Some winds, like the one in the DYNM3831 will have you do a couple turns CCW then one CW that comes back to make the third pass in the first coil and on to the second pass in the second coil. And then back CCW starting the third coil back to get the third pass on the second coil, and then CW again.....etc etc all the way around. So you actually end up with six coils per leg! 18 coils total. See now why ya don't want to start with that one????
    I post a picture of one leg wound that way in a little just to show you how confusing it can get. But once you get it in your head what's actually going on and why, It's nor that much harder to do than any of the others.

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    DSC_0006.jpg

    Now were getting to the part where you will have to use some imagination.

    You know what the stator looks like from the previous pictures right. So lets imagine that it's made out of a soft rubber and that we cut it into lengthwise on one side only, from one end to the other. Then bend it open and laid it flat on the bench, like you could do an orange for example . Now you have a long rectangle block about a half inch thick with 18 little slits (the SLOTS) cut in the top half of it. Were again pretending that the top half (depth wise) has been milled off so that we can see the actual slots where the wire will be laying in them.

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    sorry about the 17 slots above I wasn't counting right and I added it after that pic.


    DSC_0007.jpg

    Here we have leg one all wired up. See how it enters the first on the left slot at 1S, (S for start F for finish) and then STS (remember that stands for, skip two slots). Makes a CCW coil, and then moves over two slots (STS again). And makes the second coil, STS and make the third coil and out to 1F.

    DSC_0008.jpg

    Add leg #2

    DSC_0009.jpg

    And leg #3. Now we gots a mess don't we.

    I'll draw out that DYNM3831 wind now so you can see which one you'd rather learn first.

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    DSC_0010.jpg

    See how there looks to be a lot more going on with this one. Also note how at the far right how the line goes off page to catch the slot where the run started at. Also note that I put the #2 blue wire in the #1s slot, and forgot to put the red #3 wire on it altogether. I'll do it better when (if) anyone gets to where they actually want to do this one.

    DSC_0011.jpg

    There are times when a wind will require a CW coil on one tooth and the next leg will need a CW coil, then the third leg will need a CCW wound coil, then one CW and the next two will be CCW. There are all kinds of combos, but mostly our motors all use the simpler all the same type of pattern. And usually the mixed up type coils are on CONCENTRATED winds and not the DISTRIBUTED type like we (normally) use.

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    Thank you Don, lots of reading.

    Were you successful on your first rewind attempt?
    Nortavlag Bulc

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    Your welcome Ray,

    If I remember right, my first one did run ok. But at first, I was just trying to duplicate exactly what was inside of an Aquacraft motor. I used the same diameter wire and same number of strands. 30 strands of 31 awg wire on the "good" ones, 21 strands on the easy to burn up ones!!!.

    This leaves a lot of room in the slots and makes for easy winding. Later I went up in wire size to 27ag and down in strands to 25-27 strands. But this still makes for around 50 to 70% increase in copper.

    But by the time that I did the first one that I actually put power to. I had dissected about a dozen learning the weave of the wire. And the (light bulb over the head)had turned on and I had a pretty good grasp of what was actually going on. In my elementary school years, I had made a simple motor using a horseshoe magnet for the stator, a bolt with the head cut off, and a hole crosswise at the middle with a wooden dowel for the shaft, to make the rotor. Steel strips from the barn roof to make the commutator. More tin strips for the brushes. And wire that I got out of an old transformer. Wound wire around the bolt, CW on one side and CCW on the other to make the necessary north and south poles for the rotor. Soldered it all up and looked at it running in disbelief that something so simple would actually run.

    So I sorta understood the commutation principles and how it makes a rotating magnetic field within the rotor. Then around age 14-15 I got into slot cars and rewound a few of them. Then about 50 years later, I did my first brushless motor.

    But For that first AQ motor I still did not wind once and add power. I wound several "test" stators trying to get a feel for it, until I thought that I had it about right and confident that it would work right.

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    DSC_0001.jpgDSC_0002.jpgDSC_0003.jpgDSC_0004.jpgDSC_0005.jpg


    Get some of this colorful cat5 wire to make learning easier PLEASE!

    Pull back on the white one and strip it away from the orange one. Don't sit there and unwind the whole damn thing TERRY!

    It takes about four feet for a 3 delta like I'm doing here. Stick in a slot, any slot, for this one time only and pull it through almost all the way! Leave about 4 to 6 inches sticking out the top. Then out the bottom STS and back in and up out the top, go back to the first start hole and stick it back in. Making a COIL here you see. Out the bottom STS back in and up out the top. Back to the start and in for the last TURN on this coil. IN, down, out STS and back in and up and out the top side to finish out this first coil.

    That's pic three. Left side of the wire is where we started and the right side is the finish, and goes on to the next coil in line.

    Pic 4 shows the second coil, on this leg, already finished. It's done exactly like the first one so no need to repeat myself. See the single strand STS and go in for the start. Around three times and out.

    Pic 5. Wind the third coil in the same manner. STS in, down out, STS back in and up, out the top back to the start of this coil and around two more times. Then out and cut it off same length as the start wire. See also that there is two empty slots to the right of where we ended. Thats where the next two legs will start.
    Last edited by donhuff; 05-10-2020 at 02:14 PM.

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    Don - I remember a few years back we were talking about different motors and their Stators.
    Some Motors came with two types of Stators, One type can be rewound the other can Not.


    Larry
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

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    DSC_0007.jpgDSC_0008.jpgDSC_0009.jpg


    Now take your next color of wire, I used blue this time. And go into the slot to the left of the START of the orange wire.

    If ya aint got if figured out by now, then go back to the post just above this one and follow the instructions to wire the Second legs set of three coils, just like ya did the first legs coils.

    Hold it up to the picture if you need to and see that all your colors and strand counts are in the right order.

    Pic 3 we start the third set of coils and I'm using green wire. Same thing here as before, it just looks more complicated because it's getting very crowded. Now imagine what it would look like if using all the same colored wire and 20 strands of that wire per leg.


    You notice that I said 20 strands that last time. The factory AQ motor is a 2 turn wind with 30 strands per bundle, that puts 60 strands in each slot. But for our rewind above, I used 3 turns. So if the slots will hold only 60 strands on a 2 turn. Then for our 3 turn we have to take the 60 strand total and divide by the number of turns which is three. That gives us 20 strands per turn.

    So in theory how many strands would we have to use for a 10 turn AQ motor? 6 right
    Last edited by donhuff; 05-10-2020 at 09:45 PM.

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    I remember a little about that Larry.

    Most of the type like we usually run look like the one in my picture for the most part. Now a 4 pole motor will have only 12 slots in it and will look different because of that. But shape and such they look the same.

    Some motors like the Lehner are two pole and "slotless" meaning that there is not a stator in them at all. The coils are made up and pressed into shape and set in a resin like epoxy. And either before the epoxy or after i'm not sure, the coils are pressed into a laminated steel cylinder, and this forms the "back iron" like the thick steel on the outside of the wire on the stator inside our motors.

    And I saw inside of a plettenberg once, and while it did have a normal looking stator. The windings were also set in epoxy and it would be a job to get all that off to be able to rewind it.

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    DSC_0010.jpg

    Here we have a the stator all coiled up and ready to TERMINATE the ends of all the coils. Another reason I like this wind is it is easy to terminate as any two wires that are side by side, go together.

    Start 1 goes with S2.............S3 goes with Finish 1............F2 goes with F3

    DSC_0011.jpg
    Last edited by donhuff; 05-10-2020 at 05:37 PM.

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    DSC_0012.jpgDSC_0001.jpg


    It should look like this
    Last edited by donhuff; 05-10-2020 at 05:38 PM.

  29. #29
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    Pictures on post #25 and #27 do not work

    Larry
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

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    Thanks Larry i think I got it now.

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