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Thread: Americans can go Naviga Racing again!

  1. #1
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    Default Americans can go Naviga Racing again!

    I just saw on facebook that Oxidean Marine have joined Naviga, so for the first time since the '90s when NAMBA were members, Americans will have the opportunity to send a team to the next Naviga World Championships!

    I recall Wilmer, Terry Davis, Brian Bauss, Ray Schrauwan, and Jesse J have expressed interest to me before but no American federation was a Naviga member and it costs rather a lot for a single person to join.

    We don't run any scale classes, and I know you guys don't run any of the submerged drive classes, but there are mono classes (steps allowed) and Hydro (rigger) classes in 3 categories, Mini (hulls under 450mm long), 1 (2-3 cell), and 2 (4-6 cell). I think the Mono2 class would be a good match for your P- monos and P-ltd Offshore monohulls, and Hydro 2 would be a good match for your P-ltd Hydros. or maybe full P hulls for bad weather boats.

    We make sure everyone has the same power available to them whatever the size of their wallet by the use of electronic energy limiters and a 6 minute runtime +10 second mill +in lap, the Limits are:- Mini 21 Wh, 1 60Wh, 2 120Wh giving an average power during the race of just under 200W, 600W and 1200W. With the power equal for everyone we can allow any Motor, ESC and Hull length (except the mini class which is under 450mm to keep them mini), and a choice of battery voltages, Batteries must be over 350g for 1 classes ore over 700g for 2 classes to avoid the situation we used to have of people using batteries barely big enough and draining them right down for competitive advantage.

    Limiters are provided out of a hat for the European and World championships, so you don't have to buy one if you don't want to (although it may be helpful for testing if your ESCs don't have datalogging).

    As it has been 2 decades since America sent a team, I really hope some of you can go, if you have ever been considering it this may be your only opportunity for a very long time, There is plenty of notice, while the date and location has not been set yet, it will be some time in summer 2021. There are 5 entries per class, per country allowed (plus a defending champion if applicable).
    Last edited by NativePaul; 11-20-2019 at 03:24 PM.
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

  2. #2
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    I really would love to but I'm not in a health or financial position to do so.

    Really appreciate the call out and that you remembered my interest in going.

    I'm actually building a Jae Mini 26" rigger shortly once I have everything. It could shoehorn into a hydro class.
    Nortavlag Bulc

  3. #3
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    Sorry to hear that Ray. It'd make a decent Hydro1 if built light, I ran a converted JAE.12 for several years.
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

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    At no time in any future will I be racing or associated with anything that includes Oxidean.
    Noisy person

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    Dang, great news! I need more info on these power limiters. Can you send me some info/links to ones that would work?
    Where would the 2021 race be? How many days, and how are they typically structured?
    Good to know now, ‘cause I have next years vacation planned.
    Paul, pm me your WhatsApp number?
    "Look good doin' it"
    See the fleet

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    Terry, I assumed that would be the case, you haven't exactly hidden your feud with Wilmer, I'm sorry to hear my suspicions confirmed though.

    Jesse, There are 4 limiters now Legal, all 4 claim to be under 1% margin of accuracy and all have been independently tested by Naviga and verified as such, so there is no competitive advantage to any, but they are different sizes and have different features. The ones I use are http://www.mlmsolutions.biz/elim.php I'm biased as it is made by a clubmate of mine, the others are; http://www.wozniakrctech.com/produkty_KLW202_1.html , http://eshop.mmodely.cz/limiter-160a...-mdle4-p70973/ , https://tsslimiter.com/

    The Worlds are held in a different member's country every year so I cant say where it will be until it is announced, the last one was in Italy, so it wont be there, Maybe America will submit an application. l Typically there are 3 race courses set out none for FSR nitro Muliboats, one that gets changed daily so it is the F1E speed two way triangle or the F3E christmas tree every other day, and the main course that gets changed daily so it is the Eco triangle or surface drive oval every other day. It does make for a long event at 10 days, but I really like the format the days off mean that you are never stressing about unforseen circumstances ruining your event, or having to rush repairs, gives you time to see other events that you would never normally see, I am a pure surface drive guy, but the F1 and F3 classes have to be seen to believed and some of the Eco racing is epic to watch. probably the best part is the opportunity to hang out and bond with fellow racers which I rarely have time to do much of at local or national events ass I am running around like a blue arsed fly.

    The structure is 3 heats of each class, with the best lap scores and times of each competitors best 2 heats counting, which decides the score for places 7 down, and the top 6 entering a winner takes all final on the last day. Oval racing is around an oval with 60m straights and 5m radius turns on the end, there is a 10 second mill to the top right buoy and then a race with 6 minutes duration to complete as many laps as you can, at the end of the 6 minutes you can complete the lap you are on, but you are timed and the time counts against you, so if someone with 35 laps 2 seconds will beat someone with 35 laps 8 seconds. Lap counting and timing is done with an AMB transponder system (same as what car guys use) and on the entry form you put in your transponder number if you have your own or say that you need to hire one if you don't. The transponder wires are suspended above the start/finish line on the front straight, and you will need to either have a non carbon/metal area of your boat above it, or mount it externally to get a reliable signal.
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

  7. #7
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    Just out of shear curiosity what about Oxidean Marine do yall not get along with? I was just reading through and thought I asked. I have no opinion of them one way or another as I've never raced or been around his products just wanted to hear your thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mxrb18 View Post
    Just out of shear curiosity what about Oxidean Marine do yall not get along with? I was just reading through and thought I asked. I have no opinion of them one way or another as I've never raced or been around his products just wanted to hear your thoughts.
    It really doesn't need to be brought back up again, searching around online should cover it.
    Steven Vaccaro

    Where Racing on a Budget is a Reality!

  9. #9
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    I'd love to go to the Naviga worlds. There's nothing like a WC event. The '98 FAI F5D WC is still one of my best memories in the hobby.

    What's the battery limit for the mini?
    Brian "Snowman" Buaas
    Team Castle Creations
    NAMBA FE Chairman

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    Mini Batteries are 2s or 3s, and must be either <113g inluding wiring (which has to be >30mm long), or used with a limiter set at 21Wh.
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

  11. #11
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    The complete rulebook can be found here:
    http://www.naviga.org/section_m/index.php/rules/

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    The rule book is being updated at the moment so I was only going to link it when the 2020 book comes out (which should be soon), but for the most part they will be the same as the link above, apart from the non mini Eco, Mono Hydro and FSRE classes going limiter only, limiters being picked out of a hat, and getting minimum battery weights of Eco, Mono1, Hydro1 350g. Mono2, Hydro2 700g. FSRE 1050g.

    I forgot to say that Minis have a minimum weight limit of 450g for some reason. It is not a huge deal as it is hard to make a 450mm boat much lighter, but I have seen it hit even with a limiter and overweight cells.
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

  13. #13
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    This is what I was told. Well. Some. I'll spare you the assault on my character.

    "Mr Oxidean as the sole fast electrics representant from the USA to Naviga. If you ever should feel the need to come an race at a serious level, you will have to pass trough him because his Organisation represents Naviga in the USA as of now."

    Apparently what we've done until now is not serious. The context would lead you to think the same.

    From the NAVIGA rule book.....

    Only persons affiliated to a Governing Body, known and recognized by Naviga and who are aware of the Rules can participate at Worlds or Continental Championships. Their membership to their Governing Body should be at least from the year of participation and should still be active.

    Oxidean Marine is a company that sells boats. It's not a governing body. This isn't a dig on Oxidean even. He's doing his thing for profit as he should. Credit where credit is due. Tenacity and marketing. The man is the king.

    Just an observation. Book says "governing body". US rep is a company. The team is only 5 racers. IMPBA and NAMBA combined have maybe 3000 members. None of which belong to the Oxidean racing Organization. OM isn't an organization. There is no rule book, no organized races, and has no membership for the 5 participants to comply with NAVIGA participant guidelines.

    I didn't write the rules but I'm curious if this is the intent. Is it all just companies with hand picked drivers racing or just certain countries doing that? Sounds like NASCAR or F1 racing. NAVIGA may need to amend it's rule book to read "organization" instead of "governing body" as the US will not be complying with the rule book where as other countries may be in compliance.

    Wilmer, I know yer out there. You gotta find a way around this before some other competitors protest. You don't want that crap on race day. Maybe it's the norm and the rule is BS.
    Noisy person

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    While Walter's English is very good (certainly a hell of a lot better than my non existent Flemish), it is his 4th language and I wouldn't try to read between the lines or take his lack of nuances in it to heart.

    A team is up to 5 racers in each class, not just 5 racers, the Chinese team for example is probably 30-40 strong.

    I would much rather it was your national organisation that were joining and putting forward a team. It is not the normal situation at all. The normal situation is that the top 5 placed racers in each class at the countries national championships qualify for the worlds, and if any of those 5 don't want to attend, the national organisation open it up for racers lower down on the scoreboard. It is the first time I have heard of a company rather than the national organisation putting forward a team. America are I think in a unique situation of having 2 national FE organisations in NAMBA and IMBRA, I guess even if one of them joined there would be worthy folk in the other organisation left out. NAMBA have been Naviga members in the past and sent a team, I wish they would again, but as they haven't, and IMPBA haven't either I am glad that a company has stepped forward and allowed some american participation for the first time in 2 decades.

    I am sure the competitors will welcome Americans with open arms whoever gets the team together.
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

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    Trouble would be that IMPBA and NAMBA don't run anything on the regular that would be NAVIGA legal. Each racer will need to invent a setup, test it, never race it once, then travel across the planet with no experience. That's likely why there have been no travellers of late.

    So the organization rule doesn't really mean anything. Are there others that don't apply?
    Noisy person

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    Well, it's not like it doesn't mean anything, but if the national organization is not interested in joining and you have racers that would like to attend, then a club can step in.
    There are also examples of countries where there are two organizations affiliated, each on different classes (one has the FE, other has sail and scale models). For years one other organization was not interested and one person paid a symbolic fee to be able to participate in World and European Championships.
    The main idea is to allow racers to participate if they want to. And there are these controversies even in countries represented by the national federation....

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    Paul, for the limiters does everyone need to run a standard connector on the ends? Or do racers solder on their own connectors after drawing from the hat?

    -Tyler
    Tyler Garrard
    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

  18. #18
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    There will be a standard for the connectors used at a major event, it is actually under vote these days.
    Probably we will end up with different size connectors on each side of the limiter (eg 5.5mm to the battery, 6mm to the ESC), to avoid any mistake... You will install the limiter just before the race, during the boat/battery check, so many racers will be in a hurry and can do silly mistakes.

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    Will there be a diagram for wire length etc so we can setup our own limiters to match the standard? Also, the eLim looks like it's inline with both power wires while the others available appear to go inline on only one leg, will we end up with only one option?
    Brian "Snowman" Buaas
    Team Castle Creations
    NAMBA FE Chairman

  20. #20
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    Yes, full details will be given for the connections. For now, the length is around 80mm total (wires plus limiter).
    All three limiters will have both power wires connected (TSS and KLW will have a wire added to allow a standard).

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    With Tyler and Brian driving for him, Oxideans chances go up exponentially. Nice get for OM.
    Noisy person

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    I found out yesterday that you can take lipos on carry on. Holy crap!
    Nortavlag Bulc

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    You can, and should rather than stowing them, but I believe there is a 100Wh per battery limit for passenger air travel so 4s and 6s packs for Mono2, Hydro2 and FSRE packs have to be split up into 2x2s 2x3s etc.
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

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    It's easy to get them into Europe, but as I found out it was not easy traveling within Europe. I lost about $600 worth of lipos traveling to the Munich SAW event. Even though the batteries were within the legal limits German security would not allow them.
    Tyler Garrard
    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

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    hi all,
    makes up for some good reading what i read here. A true World series can happen now, and i for one am all for it. Sometimes ideas come together and they continue on that road instead of staying "local". We have an established race format where everyone is welcome to proof their merits , so what s to loose?

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    Off subject. Many years ago I sent Walter plans for a rigger of a gentleman from USA. I just ran across his name a few minutes ago. I believe he is from Belgium is my memory serves me correct. Sorry about this off topic. Just had to reply, sorry!

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    There is not a full 2020 rule book update yet, but I just saw this:

    "Dear Eco, Hydro, Mono, FSR E racers,

    Summing the votes about limiter connections, I can now announce the result, and the votes in details as well.
    The votes of countries by options (order by time, vote arrived):
    Option 1: 3x5.5mm+1x3.5mm – China, Hungary, Belgium
    Option 2: 2x5.5mm+2x3.5mm – Ukraine, Czech Republic
    Option 3: 2x5.5mm+2x6mm - Romania, Thailand, UK, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, Slovakia, France, Lithuania, Poland

    As all of you can see, 10 countries voted in favour of option 3, against 2 and 3 for the other 2 options. As a result of voting, at WC/CC/EC, connectors soldered on Naviga provided limiters will be as follows:
    Battery side positive: 5.5mm Male
    Battery side negative: 5.5mm Female
    ESC side positive: 6mm Male
    ESC side negative: 6mm Female

    The length of limiter cables is 80mm. Limiter must be connected directly to battery and before the safety kill switch on ESC side.
    Here is a simple drawing of the setup.
    limiter.jpg

    Kind regards,

    Csaba D?nielfy
    Naviga M Section Leader"
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

  28. #28
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    I sought clarification as those connectors are unnecessarily large for minis and a lot of mini Hydros are a tight squeeze even to fit 2200mAh and a hard wired limiter in.

    For Mini class boats you can use your own limiter and there is no limiter wire length or connector regulation.

    The option to use <113g batteries instead of a limiter is also still available for Mini classes.
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

  29. #29
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    Here ya go Walter. This is who you are dealing with.

    I'm not a racist Walter. Despite you declaring it so. I really want to move on but Oxidean is the gift that keeps giving.
    received_996706794030120.jpg
    Noisy person

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    Tiny photo there Terry I can recognise the shape of some, but not all of the words.
    Paul "tug Killer" Upton-Taylor, Cat lover.
    FastElectricBoats.co.uk

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