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Thread: NAMBA's P Limited Rules.

  1. #61
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    Oh also, on the "as manufactured" thing.

    All of these manufacturers will build based on pennies this way or that way. They don't make decisions based on racing. Not a new concept either. Mabuchi spit out umpteen versions of the old 700 motors that LSH was based on. Right now there are two generations of the PB2000 right now. The newer of them have button head screws holding the end bell on. Smart but a pain in the a$$. Which one is right? With buttons? Without buttons? ......both are right. When you tech them as Terry described.....edge of dark, 40 degrees, in the wind you wont have the manufacturers drawings to verify it has the right wind, can, bearings, rotor, shrink wrap.

    Then some of the aftermarket manufacturers today will do a custom wind and just charge accordingly. In same cases even custom cans. So you could have two "as manufactured" motors side by side from same hand building them be totally different.

    Even if we were to rely on the protest process we still have to know how the original motor was built.......exactly. "Well.......it looks like a Proboat 2000........which generation?........did those have these bearings?......depends on which lot number." That's just for one manufacturer. Multiply that by every motor on Mikes list then add more as they become available. Ahhhhhhhh.

    "As manufactured" would be a tech nightmare. It's part of what was wrong with the original rule set and a large part of why for years I've been saying that we blew it. It worked but only because we were all ignorant.
    Noisy person

  2. #62
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    So then does it really matter what's in the can as long as it's 37 x 60?

    I mean does it really matter?

    NAMBA doesn't seem to think so and Mike told me 2-3 mph on an optimized Sport Hydro...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    So then does it really matter what's in the can as long as it's 37 x 60?

    I mean does it really matter?

    NAMBA doesn't seem to think so and Mike told me 2-3 mph on an optimized Sport Hydro...
    Bottom line is your only going to be able to squeeze a certain amount of power no matter what due to physical limitations of the can size. It's far past time to move past this analysis paralysis and just be done with it at 37mm x 60mm.
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    I don't know Terry. I've raced against some I consider very good racers? Some I consider the very best. I've lost to them. I've beat them. I've raced against hand wound motors, custom fabricated Neu motors, almost every RTR motor of the day. I've even modified some motors myself to see what was possible or to address what I thought were flaws. Won some. Lost some. I can't say that I was ever beat by a motor. I've lost to racers. Guys that turn laps, learn their boats, learn to respond to their boat at speed, tweak, tweak, tweak.

    Heck, I know a few people. I have access to all those options too. I race motors that I bought off the shelf at the local hobby shop. If you buy a Proboat on line tonight it will come with a better motor than I race with. I simply don't take the best care of them.

    So my opinion is that although one motor certainly could/can be better than the next it isn't enough to buy a win so to speak. It's like a .67 nitro motor. You can do what you want to it but it's still a .67 motor. It's only going to give you what it has if it's legal. The guy that knows how to get that little extra from his entire setup, can drive it, maybe got a better night sleep than the next nut...........that guy is going to win.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by don ferrette View Post
    Bottom line is your only going to be able to squeeze a certain amount of power no matter what due to physical limitations of the can size. It's far past time to move past this analysis paralysis and just be done with it at 37mm x 60mm.
    Please
    Nortavlag Bulc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter A View Post
    I can't help but continue to be amazed at how badly grown men can behave over toy boats. Not you guys here, it's those who seem to like to run and control associations, ignoring the membership, constitutions and so on. Sort of spoils the fun doesn't it?
    The class thing is the thing really. Like you guys, we now have 10 gazillion FE classes but can hardly put together anything more than P mono as a class at a regatta. Mostly this was done by one person just so they could set as many records as possible. Something because it exists I have been able to do as well, but whatever for that, I am over our national association and their bs!
    Looking at how to grow FE in our club I am thinking through what will work best, be fair for racing, simple and generally affordable.
    So far I am at;
    P-Q Offshore and Hydro, max 6000 mah.
    Open Electric, max 12s 10,000mah.
    Pretty much just three classes, hard to be any more simple.
    I like it. The rest of the world runs 1P in most electric classes because of the lower expense and many run 6S1P setups because of their efficiency regardless of hull size within reason.

    This gazillion HP and crazy MAH classes are just $$ hogs.

    I am sitting here looking at what I have and think, wth am I doing?

    I'm selling a bunch of boats soon and probably going the above route or close to it.

    Kepps... mmmm...

    Just dreaming, sorry.
    Nortavlag Bulc

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    Quote Originally Posted by don ferrette View Post
    Bottom line is your only going to be able to squeeze a certain amount of power no matter what due to physical limitations of the can size. It's far past time to move past this analysis paralysis and just be done with it at 37mm x 60mm.
    Couldn't agree more except I think the situation has left the realm of analysis paralysis and entered into obstruction of the desires of membership.

    I can hear it now... "Well before we truly know if 37mm x 60mm will work, we need to figure out what the intent of the class is."
    Have fun with that....

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    I don't know Terry. I've raced against some I consider very good racers? Some I consider the very best. I've lost to them. I've beat them. I've raced against hand wound motors, custom fabricated Neu motors, almost every RTR motor of the day. I've even modified some motors myself to see what was possible or to address what I thought were flaws. Won some. Lost some. I can't say that I was ever beat by a motor. I've lost to racers. Guys that turn laps, learn their boats, learn to respond to their boat at speed, tweak, tweak, tweak.

    Heck, I know a few people. I have access to all those options too. I race motors that I bought off the shelf at the local hobby shop. If you buy a Proboat on line tonight it will come with a better motor than I race with. I simply don't take the best care of them.

    So my opinion is that although one motor certainly could/can be better than the next it isn't enough to buy a win so to speak. It's like a .67 nitro motor. You can do what you want to it but it's still a .67 motor. It's only going to give you what it has if it's legal. The guy that knows how to get that little extra from his entire setup, can drive it, maybe got a better night sleep than the next nut...........that guy is going to win.
    The reality is, and I have both observed and been on each end of it, is that the fastest boat will not necessarily win. Often as not they will stuff in, roll over or break down. The old adage, "if first you want to win, then then first you have to finish".

    While I get the basic reason for a 'ltd' or 'spec' class, there are few (and lessening) rtr offerings left for a beginner to get on the water with. So the question could really be , why even bother if there is no overall agreement in what it should be.
    That being said, it just make sense to me that the 37x60 size would be the best compromise, as Don said, "Bottom line is your only going to be able to squeeze a certain amount of power no matter what due to physical limitations of the can size."
    This is why we (NZ, I did that!) have a mah limit, Aussie and Naviga have weight limits. The best limitation is the size of the 'fuel tank'. You can only get so much out of it regardless of the motor!
    NZMPBA 2013, 2016 Open Electric Champion. NZMPBA 2016 P Offshore Champion.
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    Are we at the point that this "horse" has been beaten so badly that no one will move forward with this simple proposal? The consensus appears to have shifted. Do we need a straw poll here of IMPBA members for or against a 37X60 spec class. Notice 37 so we are not copying NAMBA if that helps. You can sort out the number of classes later as this should be a line item issue.
    +1 for a spec class
    Mic
    Please sound off for or against

    Mic Halbrehder
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTVboats View Post
    Notice 37 so we are not copying NAMBA if that helps.
    NAMBA motor rule is 37mm Diameter x 60mm Length limits
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Have fun with that....

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    Quote Originally Posted by HTVboats View Post
    Are we at the point that this "horse" has been beaten so badly that no one will move forward with this simple proposal? The consensus appears to have shifted. Do we need a straw poll here of IMPBA members for or against a 37X60 spec class. Notice 37 so we are not copying NAMBA if that helps. You can sort out the number of classes later as this should be a line item issue.
    +1 for a spec class
    Mic
    Please sound off for or against
    I already have and have the signatures on it as required. Just haven't sent it to anyone.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter A View Post
    This is why we (NZ, I did that!) have a mah limit,
    How do you guys verify that? I'm guessing you have the same problem that NAMBA does with their mah limit. Nobody checks it because nobody has the ability in the field on race day to do that. NAMBA relies on the sticker on the pack. If the sticker is right it's legal. They sometimes check pre-race voltage but the mah limits never get checked. Kind of a farce for them.
    Noisy person

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTVboats View Post
    Are we at the point that this "horse" has been beaten so badly that no one will move forward with this simple proposal?
    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    I already have and have the signatures on it as required. Just haven't sent it to anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    It is my belief that someone needs to just put in a proposal for 37mm x 60mm identical to NAMBA and see what happens. I think at this point it has all been debated so much... and that is the conciseness of what racers want. There is no silver bullet solution that is going to address every question/concern that Mr. Mike Ball may be able to bring up.

    Mr. Ball and the rest of the BODs can either choose to approve the proposal and allow it to go forward for membership vote... Or they can resign to the fact that P-Limited/Spec classes can be run at a Nationals Event as a "Special Event" with winners being awarded First, Second, Third Place... No "National Champion". I also don't think that points from those "Special Events" would be able to be counted towards a President's Cup or any other combined points awards.
    The sooner a proposal gets on their desk the sooner these discussions end.

    And I'll promise you all now... I won't say a negative word if they deny and never let it go to membership vote.
    As long as they acknowledge (in the meeting minutes) that will result in P-Limited/Spec classes only being run at "Nationals" events as "Special Events" with winners being awarded First, Second, Third Place... No "National Champion".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by dethow; 09-26-2019 at 10:03 AM.
    Have fun with that....

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    Omfg......

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    I don't know Terry. I've raced against some I consider very good racers? Some I consider the very best. I've lost to them. I've beat them. I've raced against hand wound motors, custom fabricated Neu motors, almost every RTR motor of the day. I've even modified some motors myself to see what was possible or to address what I thought were flaws. Won some. Lost some. I can't say that I was ever beat by a motor. I've lost to racers. Guys that turn laps, learn their boats, learn to respond to their boat at speed, tweak, tweak, tweak.

    Heck, I know a few people. I have access to all those options too. I race motors that I bought off the shelf at the local hobby shop. If you buy a Proboat on line tonight it will come with a better motor than I race with. I simply don't take the best care of them.

    So my opinion is that although one motor certainly could/can be better than the next it isn't enough to buy a win so to speak. It's like a .67 nitro motor. You can do what you want to it but it's still a .67 motor. It's only going to give you what it has if it's legal. The guy that knows how to get that little extra from his entire setup, can drive it, maybe got a better night sleep than the next nut...........that guy is going to win.


    Where's the "Like" button? For sure it's the whole package and the motor is only a small part of the equation.

    And if the can size is the big limiting factor (kinda like displacement in fuel classes) then adding anything else is like picking fly chit outta pepper with boxing gloves on. Or "analysis paralysis" as Don puts it.

    I know your National Fast Electric Director fairly well (Mr. Ball, lol) and I know that he is a meticulous type just as I am. Therefore he wants to get it right.

    But a huge part of "getting it right" is also making it practical and simple enough so that the guys in the field can implement the Rule correctly.

    On Sunday night, in the rain at 40*...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    On Sunday night, in the rain at 40*...
    You have to be the only guy that happens to Terry. hahaha
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    How do you guys verify that? I'm guessing you have the same problem that NAMBA does with their mah limit. Nobody checks it because nobody has the ability in the field on race day to do that. NAMBA relies on the sticker on the pack. If the sticker is right it's legal. They sometimes check pre-race voltage but the mah limits never get checked. Kind of a farce for them.
    In reality nobody cares that much, and the rated value on the original manufacturers label is sufficient, and we have max voltages. Stll no one gets that upset if someone uses hv cells if it means making up a race. Few possess the know how to work out how much capacity the battery truely holds, and Fe is too small for it to be such an issue here. Heck even the gas guys can't agree on finding someone to tech a stock 26 zenoah, even with a 'dummies' guide to do so!
    It becomes, and should be, about turning laps and finishing races. But above all just enjoying playing toy boats. When it becomes all about the rules and people cheating it to win, everybody starts to lose something!
    NZMPBA 2013, 2016 Open Electric Champion. NZMPBA 2016 P Offshore Champion.
    2016 SUHA Q Sport Hydro Hi Points Champion.
    BOPMPBC Open Mono, Open Electric Champion.

  18. #78
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    I totally get that. The guys that do this stuff wouldn't want anyone even thinking they were cheating. So they just comply and give it little thought. It's that one unscrupulous dude that screws it up for everyone.

    Example...

    NAMBA and IMPBA didn't always have a max charged voltage. Everyone just assumed that the battery manufacturers recommendations for charge voltage was sufficient to keep guys in check. It's a safety thing right? Why risk it? I sure wouldn't. Well it turned out somebody totally was risking it. Over charging their cells repeatedly. At major events no less. There was/has been speculation that records were set by doing so. Nobody could prove it as it didn't occur to anyone that they needed to check. There was no "rule" prohibiting it exactly so was it cheating? "Oh for crap sake!!!! Sighhhhhhhh". Had to add it in before someone got hurt.

    With any rule set, regardless of fuel, a guy that's a cheater............ is a cheater. He's going to find some way to get around the system. Rules are designed to give honest people a recipe for parity with his fellow lunatics. A hand full of said lunatics with similar boats, going similar speeds, with similar childish grins is what the hobby is about IMO.
    Noisy person

  19. #79
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    Can I have a 'like' button for you Terry?
    It gets even worse when your National association president decides to hold allow non members to compete in regattas, not run failsafes (rule for gassers with penalties that he himself brought in!), and then awards himself PC points for competing against all not just members (Obsessed!). Complaints to the committee have now led to the cancelling of this years PC competition because the rules didn't say he couldn't do this and are therefore too ambiguious!
    Sad part for me is that I was the one who would have won it this year, my first and maybe only real chance at it! After putting in the effort I was on track to win with the highest points ever and with only FE. It is a bit gutting!
    This same 'President' arbitrarily removed my access to our forum, so I cannot exercise my rights to free speech because his mate complained that he didn't like my opinion. The committee upheld said 'complaint', which was in fact nothing but a whinge from someone who was also a previous president who quit and walked away from the association with his entire club! Someone I have had nothing to do with for years. The national treasurer also emailed me saying he was sick of my persistence with electrics, and he and others would be happy if I wasn't in the association.
    End of the day I (and others) are over it and will just work on our club and make that the best we can.
    Sorry about the rant guys, just felt like getting that off my chest. I know it diverged a little bit off topic.
    NZMPBA 2013, 2016 Open Electric Champion. NZMPBA 2016 P Offshore Champion.
    2016 SUHA Q Sport Hydro Hi Points Champion.
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter A View Post
    Can I have a 'like' button for you Terry?
    hahaha For each guy that likes what I type there are 6 (at least) that just get more pissed than when they were reading the last thing I typed. OH! Then there's a guy that logs everything I type like a lawyer. Saves everything so he can use it like sound bites to paint me as some kind of monster at a later date in some fantasy court room. Must be exhausting with well over 20,000 posts out there. There's even a guy that just makes stuff up all together to go after my character. Weeeeeeeee!

    It's super fun be'n me at times. Woohoo! Lets send in another proposal! ugh
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Then there's a guy that logs everything I type like a lawyer. Saves everything so he can use it like sound bites to paint me as some kind of monster at a later date in some fantasy court room.
    Gotta love those guys. We had one in our club too.

    They think Perry Mason's (Millennials can Google him) gonna show up and punish all the "wrongs" they've been dealt by the world. Special little snowflakes they are, that's what Mommy always said, right?

    Then the lawyer says you have no case, it's a private club, there's been no laws broken and you haven't suffered any financial loss. But if you give me a $10K retainer I'll see what I can do.

    End of discussion...

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    I heard through the grapevine a proposal has been submitted to amend our Rule Book in accordance with Section B “IMPBA Constitution”, Article VIII, Section 1.

    Apparently the proposal is to create a P Limited class that is the same as NAMBA's current rule. This would be a great addition to the IMPBA FE Rules from all I've seen and heard over the past few weeks.

    I hope your FE Director sees this as well and the Board passes the proposal as written!

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    I heard through the grapevine a proposal has been submitted to amend our Rule Book in accordance with Section B ?IMPBA Constitution?, Article VIII, Section 1.

    Apparently the proposal is to create a P Limited class that is the same as NAMBA's current rule. This would be a great addition to the IMPBA FE Rules from all I've seen and heard over the past few weeks.

    I hope your FE Director sees this as well and the Board passes the proposal as written!
    I don't agree with it. I don't agree with how its being done, why this is being done and the method in which it's being done in. It's pretty sad when a FE proposal gets submitted to the IMPBA and the FE Director isn't even included, in turn being notified second hand. At the end of the day it's not the FE director that makes any decision about rules. The board tackles these things as a group. So I am not sure what avoiding the FE Director accomplishes. (this isn't the first time this has happen)

    Another note, the club that submitted the proposal to the IMPBA are currently running a motor limit of 58mm.

    This whole P-Limited thing has become MORE, MORE, MORE.... (MORE isn?t necessary to keep the class successful IMO).

    MORE connector diameter (melting solder joints)
    MORE controller headroom (60/90am now have moved to 120/150amp)
    MORE capacity in the batteries (because we are pulling more amps)
    MORE motor options
    MORE motor length
    OOPS too much motor length! Just back off by 2mm

    but yet the majority are STILL using (generally) the same 56mm style motor that got us here. Heck even the guys that are kicking and screaming that 60mm needs to be the length limit are routinely and openly suggesting a motor that is only 56mm long to others when they ask.

    Why does a bigger hammer need to be the solution. How about we institute some rules that keeps people from harming motors and controllers allowing equipment to last entire seasons or multiple years? From a true Limited, Spec, or Club (whatever you want to call it) class perspective, why is the motor the focal point? I think we can all benefit from taking several steps back, tapping the breaks. Lets take a look at where we started and what it's turned into.

    My 2 pennies from the perspective of representing the IMPBA
    Ball

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    Mike

    Where is the LIKE button?

    Larry
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

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    Cured.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by longballlumber View Post
    I don't agree with it. I don't agree with how its being done, why this is being done and the method in which it's being done in. It's pretty sad when a FE proposal gets submitted to the IMPBA and the FE Director isn't even included, in turn being notified second hand. At the end of the day it's not the FE director that makes any decision about rules. The board tackles these things as a group. So I am not sure what avoiding the FE Director accomplishes. (this isn't the first time this has happen)

    Another note, the club that submitted the proposal to the IMPBA are currently running a motor limit of 58mm.

    This whole P-Limited thing has become MORE, MORE, MORE.... (MORE isn?t necessary to keep the class successful IMO).

    MORE connector diameter (melting solder joints)
    MORE controller headroom (60/90am now have moved to 120/150amp)
    MORE capacity in the batteries (because we are pulling more amps)
    MORE motor options
    MORE motor length
    OOPS too much motor length! Just back off by 2mm

    but yet the majority are STILL using (generally) the same 56mm style motor that got us here. Heck even the guys that are kicking and screaming that 60mm needs to be the length limit are routinely and openly suggesting a motor that is only 56mm long to others when they ask.

    Why does a bigger hammer need to be the solution. How about we institute some rules that keeps people from harming motors and controllers allowing equipment to last entire seasons or multiple years? From a true Limited, Spec, or Club (whatever you want to call it) class perspective, why is the motor the focal point? I think we can all benefit from taking several steps back, tapping the breaks. Lets take a look at where we started and what it's turned into.


    My 2 pennies from the perspective of representing the IMPBA
    Ball
    Worth repeating.

    Well said sir.

    Back to sitting on my hands...

    As you were......
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    You guys have a rule book right? Have you read it?
    Noisy person

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    No worries. I'll retract the proposal and IMPBA can put it's head back in the sand for another 10 years.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    No worries. I'll retract the proposal and IMPBA can put it's head back in the sand for another 10 years.
    Terry
    What are the advantages of moving to 37mm X 60mm

    Was there not custom motors from NEU that fit in the 60mm?

    What motors would this allow.


    Larru
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

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    You could have a 1412 made to order but you wouldn't win with it. We've raced them.

    Honestly it doesn't matter. I'm retracting the proposal.
    Noisy person

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