NAMBA's P Limited Rules.

[Terry Keeley]

[Reaching into pockets] ...look, i want to thank you guys for maintaining composure here. I know this is a sensitive topic and you all seem to remember that no matter which side of the fence you sit, the ones replying here are not your enemy and not the individual(s) responsible for your frustrations.
I've got $0.02 to chime in on the class removal discussion. I had an N cat that i ran in SAW, although no one seems to run N in heat racing, if they remove the class then i can no longer run N in any SAW event. So does that make the latest record holder forever on the books with no way to challenge?

Thanks for cleaning this up a bit, like I said also I'm not into flogging a dead horse, only moving forward.

Yes, if official classes are removed from the Rule book the records are archived forever, just like what I posted above with the L, N-1, O-1 & O-2 records.

I talked to our new President Matt Schofield yesterday, he said the original proposal is still valid, it had just been "tabled" when it was last discussed. This usually happens when the Board is unsure of a proposal or needs more information. From what I understand it will be brought up again at the December Board meeting and could be modified, put back on the table or voted on as is.

Again, if I were you guys I'd seriously look at pairing down some of your classes that are just not run anymore and archiving the Records. That would make room for what's running now, like P Limited.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Although this is like beating a dead horse, Im with Danny, and will leave this thread open. As long as we can keep it clean and "punch" free. At this point whats happened in the past cant be changed. Unless you believe the current person holds a position of leadership, if that's the case vote for change.

Lets move this forward. I to think it would be nice to have a set of matching rules for both organizations. The small number of racers being my number factor.

[Terry Keeley]

Although this is like beating a dead horse, Im with Danny, and will leave this thread open. As long as we can keep it clean and "punch" free. At this point whats happened in the past cant be changed. Unless you believe the current person holds a position of leadership, if that's the case vote for change.

Lets move this forward. I to think it would be nice to have a set of matching rules for both organizations. The small number of racers being my number factor.

No need for punching, just trying to help you guys as an outsider looking in (I'm a nitro guy but model boater at heart).

I've been boating and an IMPBA member for 45 years, I'm CD of the Can-Am race here in Toronto and two Record Trials a year in Flint, MI. I served on the IMPBA Board as Records Director for 8 years in the 90's and early 2000's. I have a good idea how these things work.

I want to try to help you guys as I can see you want to move forward but seem to be stuck. I'm good at "getting things done", maybe I can nudge you in the right direction and hopefully something good comes of this for model boating...

[Steven Vaccaro]

I want to try to help you guys as I can see you want to move forward but seem to be stuck. I'm good at "getting things done", maybe I can nudge you in the right direction and hopefully something good comes of this for model boating...

Sounds like a plan. Let me know if I can help.

Ive been taking more time off as I get older, so I hope to be able to attend this race someday.

[Terry Keeley]

Sorry, I was given bad information, the original proposal was turned down (or terminated as they call it now).

Minutes of the Feb. 2018 meeting are here:

https://nebula.wsimg.com/1b26b1f95fb3c5c5c378ffdc9a9f89e9?AccessKeyId=ACA7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

So moving forward that means you guys can start with a clean sheet of paper!

What about cleaning up the classes first, then adding a P Limited?

[Terry Keeley]

I just had a good conversation with your National Fast Electric Director, Mike Ball.

I offered my input on the subject of P Limited classes and the issue of too many classes as both a Contest Director for one of the largest races in the organization plus two Record Trials per year.

He listened well. He gave me some technical information, some history on the subjects and also some concerns he and others have relating to these two topics.

I can say I am optimistic these "issues" will be resolved sooner rather than later on a National level within the IMPBA.

My recommendations were to eliminate N, N Stock, N Super Stock and combine S & T. Archive the records so that the current Record holders are recognized forever. Add a P Limited motor class. These changes would take the current class count from 33 to 21 and be much more relevant to today's FE scene.

Create a P Limited class based on a can size as NAMBA has done (inrunner design, 37 x 60). Mike had concerns the 60 mm length limit may be too long and 57 or 58 mm might be better, OK. We also had a lengthy discussion about re-winding the motors and I think I made my point that if you stipulate the motors may not be modified in any way that the IMPBA protest procedure could take care of that. I heard that anyone (even me that routinely lets the magic smoke out of anything electric) could tell visually if a motor has been re-wound or not. Remenber, if someone was caught cheating the news would spread so fast the cheater would have to find another hobby.

There would of course be an extremely slim chance someone could hire a commercial re-winder to make a re-wind look exactly like the stock unit but that would be rare and the advantage would be small (might add 2-3 mph to a 55 mph Sport Hydro Mike said). Remember, these things have to be teched in the dark on Sunday night at 40* in the rain! Having to keep a certified gram scale to determine the difference between a stock motor and one that has been re-wound is both expensive and impractical.

Here's the IMPBA protest procedure in case you're not familiar:

IV - PROTESTS
The contestant, by entering a contest or Record Trial, automatically grants the right of inspection by Protest
Procedure. Should a contestant refuse inspection, the Protest will be judged valid and penalties will be issued
as outlined in “Protest Fees and Illegal Equipment Fines”, this section.

A. Protest Procedure:
1. Any Protest of an engine or hull must be made during a contest, and not later than 30
minutes after the last heat/run.
a. The equipment will be allowed to run only until the Protest can be evaluated.
b. The equipment will be immediately measured and reviewed by a Committee made up of
the Contest Director, IMPBA District Director (if available), and two disinterested IMPBA
members.
c. All reviewing and measuring will be done in conjunction with the "IMPBA Engine Rules"
as written. These rules are the law and the only grounds for Protest.
d. Protestor and owner or proxy must be notified, and can be present during the review.
e. If the Protest is upheld, and the equipment judged illegal, a written report outlining the
infraction ruling must be forwarded to the District Director and President within two days
of the Protest. Contest Director plus two Committee members must sign the report.
f. If for some reason the Committee cannot make a ruling, a written report, complete with
sketches, if necessary, will be forwarded to the IMPBA President who will distribute
copies to the Technical Committee for final judgment.

B. Protest Fees and Illegal Equipment Fines
1. The Protestor shall pay a $5.00 Protest Fee.
a. If the Protest is denied, the fee will be retained by the host club to defray expenses.
b. If the Protest is upheld, and the equipment declared illegal, the Protestor will receive his
Protest fee back.
2. Fines for running illegal engines and hulls:
a. Offenses are cumulative in a calendar year and are chargeable to the owner.
1st offense $25.00
2nd offense $50.00 and suspension from competition for 1 year
3rd offense expulsion from organization
b. IMPBA General Office will record offenses and send a registered letter to the owner
requesting payment of fine.
c. Fine must be paid within 20 days of notification.
d. Non-payment will result in cancellation of all IMPBA privileges for the succeeding twelve
(12) months.

[photohoward1]

That so simple. Been saying it to deaf ears for years. Hope you are successful. Being one of the only S AND T racers Most races S AND T is combined into Open! There are so few of us. N is a waste. P Q and T. My vote. Spec 37x60. If we spec 58 we may back our selves into a corner again. Simple can changes kill it. Like thicker end-bells and bearings. Manufactures change those often.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[T.S.Davis]

I wouldn't care if they were re-wound but I understand.

[photohoward1]

untechable!

I wouldn't care if they were re-wound but I understand.

[don ferrette]

That so simple. Been saying it to deaf ears for years. Hope you are successful. Being one of the only S AND T racers Most races S AND T is combined into Open! There are so few of us. N is a waste. P Q and T. My vote. Spec 37x60. If we spec 58 we may back our selves into a corner again. Simple can changes kill it. Like thicker end-bells and bearings. Manufactures change those often.


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I absolutely agree with everything except combining S and T. Leave that be and let combining be done at club/district discretion. A few years back when I went all in on FE at record trials the S records were actually a little tougher to set than the T records. Kill off the N classes and archive the records. Absolutely go 37 x 60mm for P limited (we spec'd the same for the new D12 1/10th scale unlimited rules) at that little extra length it opens up motor choices and OMG dare I say it at 37 x 60mm we'd be the same as NAMBA.

[T.S.Davis]

OMG dare I say it at 37 x 60mm we'd be the same as NAMBA.

If yer gonna blaspheme we can't hang out. That reminds me. When are you coming to Michigan ya slacker? Maybe we could get some scales going.

[Terry Keeley]

If the Records are any indication the S records are actually faster than the T records in six out of the ten records for SAW and 1/3rd oval for the five hull classes. Where the T classes are higher it is only by a very small margin (except T Mono SAW which Doug Smock put way up there).

https://nebula.wsimg.com/b0c815733fd8425ff24b779cff59f4a1?AccessKeyId=ACA7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Is there really THAT much difference between 7/8 cell and 9/10 cell to warrant another 15 record classes? Wouldn't a 7-10 cell class do?

Why was FE 1/8 Scale brought in as S/T?

[raptor347]

We gave up on the unmodified wording. Manufacturers have enough variation that you can't tell if something is rewound or not. I know Don Huff is rewinding motors, it's not a problem.

No solution for the number of classes yet.

[dethow]

Create a P Limited class based on a can size as NAMBA has done (inrunner design, 37 x 60). Mike had concerns the 60 mm length limit may be too long and 57 or 58 mm might be better, OK. We also had a lengthy discussion about re-winding the motors and I think I made my point that if you stipulate the motors may not be modified in any way that the IMPBA protest procedure could take care of that. I heard that anyone (even me that routinely lets the magic smoke out of anything electric) could tell visually if a motor has been re-wound or not. Remenber, if someone was caught cheating the news would spread so fast the cheater would have to find another hobby.

There would of course be an extremely slim chance someone could hire a commercial re-winder to make a re-wind look exactly like the stock unit but that would be rare and the advantage would be small (might add 2-3 mph to a 55 mph Sport Hydro Mike said). Remember, these things have to be teched in the dark on Sunday night at 40* in the rain! Having to keep a certified gram scale to determine the difference between a stock motor and one that has been re-wound is both expensive and impractical.

The can size issue has been discussed and debated at length. It went from 62mm to 60mm for good reason and does NOT go from 60mm to 58mm for good reason.
Mr. Ball doesn't agree and he stands firm on his position.

The re-wind issue has been discussed and debated at length.
It can't be tech'd and as Mr. Ball told you, the advantage would be small (might add 2-3 mph on a 55 mph Sport Hydro).
It's not worth the tech issues to put something in the rule, but Mr. Ball will not let his feeling on that go.

These are issues that Mr. Ball has expressed and doesn't let go of. No matter how many people disagree, Mr. Ball keeps the skepticism going with these two talking points.

The whole thing falls on Mr. Ball (FE Director) and the rest of the IMPBA BODs approving a proposal to move forward for membership vote. Based on Mr. Ball's continued concern on those two issues I don't see him or the rest of the BODs approving a proposal similar to that of NAMBA. I actually don't see them approving anything put in front of them.
If you put 37mm x 60mm in front of them, Mr. Ball would say its too long and doesn't address the re-wind possibility.
If you put 37mm x 58mm with verbiage of no modifications, Mr. Ball would then say its impossible to tech and he'd be right.
If you put 37mm x 58mm only, Mr. Ball would say he has concerns about re-winds. And even if it did get past the BODs, it probably wouldn't get membership vote because most have made it clear that 60mm is the desired length for reasons which have been debated and most other then Mr. Ball seem to be in agreement on.

It is my belief that someone needs to just put in a proposal for 37mm x 60mm identical to NAMBA and see what happens. I think at this point it has all been debated so much... and that is the conciseness of what racers want. There is no silver bullet solution that is going to address every question/concern that Mr. Mike Ball may be able to bring up.

Mr. Ball and the rest of the BODs can either choose to approve the proposal and allow it to go forward for membership vote... Or they can resign to the fact that P-Limited/Spec classes can be run at a Nationals Event as a "Special Event" with winners being awarded First, Second, Third Place... No "National Champion". I also don't think that points from those "Special Events" would be able to be counted towards a President's Cup or any other combined points awards.

And that's no big deal... Does anyone really need to have "National Champion" on their P-Limited/Spec trophies?
We could let rules flow and change at the club level... and still run the P-Limited/Spec classes at National Events based on host club rules which will be approved by the BODs and posted on the race flyer.

The draw backs would be:
- Not having a national rule set for beginners to see and understand.
- Will have different clubs running different rules which could effect turnout at larger events.
- Different clubs running different rules will make it more difficult for people to discuss and/or find help on forums like this.
- Dealers such as Offshore Electrics will have a harder time providing ARTR models which fit a buyer's local club rules.
- Racers will be more likely to be forced to change motors in their entire fleet based on never ending changes at the club level and/or trying to meet host club rule differences.
- And I'm sure there's more that I'm just not thinking about...

Mr. Ball and the rest of the BODs will just have to weigh all that out.
The BODs could just end up having the opinion that status-quo is fine. But I guess they may be forgetting that there wasn't an FE Nationals Event in years before 2018 and it doesn't look like it will be happening any time soon again. And that the membership is lacking in FE racers and clubs for a reason... No national rule set for the most popular classes. But if they're fine with status-quo then they are fine with not promoting FE racing. Because status-quo is not doing that.

[don ferrette]

If the Records are any indication the S records are actually faster than the T records in six out of the ten records for SAW and 1/3rd oval for the five hull classes. Where the T classes are higher it is only by a very small margin (except T Mono SAW which Doug Smock put way up there).

https://nebula.wsimg.com/b0c815733fd8425ff24b779cff59f4a1?AccessKeyId=ACA7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Is there really THAT much difference between 7/8 cell and 9/10 cell to warrant another 15 record classes? Wouldn't a 7-10 cell class do?

Why was FE 1/8 Scale brought in as S/T?

That same "logic" could be said about E and F outboard tunnels, DEAD racing classes and even national levels BUT guys still run both at trials. Apples to oranges as less than one percent do record trials anyways...........