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Thread: NAMBA's P Limited Rules.

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    Default NAMBA's P Limited Rules.

    Hey guys. First off I don't want to start a $hit storm here but I've heard some of the struggles IMPBA has had to adopt P Limited (or spec if you prefer) rules and as an outsider was wondering what's wrong with the NAMBA rule?

    http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php...66455964460802

    Basically a 60 mm x 37 mm motor and 34" boat length. Simple. Easy to tech at a Record Trial or for a protest.

    Why doesn't IMPBA just adopt this rule for simplicity and conformity across the organizations?

    Not to "count our chickens before they're hatched" but we will be applying to the IMPBA Board to have a "Nationals" designation added to our Can-Am race for 2020 and as per IMPBA Rule Book, Section E - II 4a (top of page E3 here: https://nebula.wsimg.com/bba6c9da9b8...&alloworigin=1) we will only be allowed to offer classes in the Rule Book. As you know there are no P-Limited or P-Spec classes currently in the IMPBA rules.

    Without this rule in place I can see that many of our FE friends will not be coming to our race next year. This will be a shame and does not comply with Section B-1, Article II-B of our Constitution "The fostering of Model Power Boat Building".

    Why can't we get this done?

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    Cool

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    And we're off................................

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    Those that ran these classes at previous CanAm races under IMPBA pretty much followed that same rule. A handful of people use ‘tweaked’ motors but still within NAMBA rule set and tweaked or not makes little difference imo.

    Doby don’t matter as he’s just in the clouds these days, haha. Heck, me too in my own way...

    God willing I will be out next year and I can handle any rules, just fun too do laps is all.

    Good luck Terry.
    Nortavlag Bulc

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    I would love to see IMPBA adopt the motor rule and actually recognize and support a growing class. What is the downside? How would it negatively affect racing as we know it?
    Mic

    Mic Halbrehder
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    :canada

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    ...we will be applying to the IMPBA Board to have a "Nationals" designation added to our Can-Am race for 2020 and as per IMPBA Rule Book, Section E - II 4a (top of page E3 here: https://nebula.wsimg.com/bba6c9da9b8...&alloworigin=1) we will only be allowed to offer classes in the Rule Book. As you know there are no P-Limited or P-Spec classes currently in the IMPBA rules.
    Thank you Terry Keeley for taking the time to read and understand the rule book.

    But as IMPBA leadership did previously (2018 FE Nationals)... they will probably just say you can run them (P-Spec Classes) anyway and use whatever rules the hosting club would like to use.

    Apparently its easier for them to just NOT follow the rule book then actually put the most popular FE classes into the rule book.

    Good luck with it all...
    Have fun with that....

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    BTW Terry...
    You do have the ability to run the spec classes as exhibition classes at a nationals event.
    You just can’t award them with a “National Champion” status on trophies or anything else.
    Awards should simply say 1st, 2nd and 3rd place.

    Pretty simple stuff... can’t award an IMPBA National Championship to classes which don’t exist in the rule book.
    Thank you again, Terry Keeley for reading the rule book and understanding that.
    Last edited by dethow; 09-23-2019 at 09:59 AM.
    Have fun with that....

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Thank you Terry Keeley for taking the time to read and understand the rule book.

    But as IMPBA leadership did previously (2018 FE Nationals)... they will probably just say you can run them (P-Spec Classes) anyway and use whatever rules the hosting club would like to use.

    Apparently its easier for them to just NOT follow the rule book then actually put the most popular FE classes into the rule book.

    Good luck with it all...

    Actually the IMPBA Board WAS following the Rule Book at the "2018 FE Nationals" since this was an "Annual International and National Regatta" as specified on page E3 of the Rule Book: https://nebula.wsimg.com/bba6c9da9b8...&alloworigin=1

    Here's the part that applies:

    2. An IMPBA National Regatta will consist of multi-boat heat racing run using one of the approved
    Nationals formats.
    a. Established IMPBA engine classifications will be offered for National Champion status.
    b. Optional special events may be offered.
    c. A minimum of 6 boats per class must be presented for racing.
    d. The winners at an IMPBA National Regatta will be awarded “National Champion”. Special
    events winners will be awarded First, Second, Third Place.

    What I mean is if a club is awarded a "Nats or Nationals" designation, as the rules are now a new club could not offer "special events". I've submitted a proposal to our IMPBA President to change this unfair rule, it should be discussed and voted on in December.

    Hopefully the Board will see that this is unfair and unjust to new clubs should they be awarded a (regional) "Nats or Nationals" designation.

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    Sorry Terry. Yer making me giggle. You know where I am on it. I'm not the only one of the same opinion you just expressed. There are other districts asking the same kind of questions. It's a safe wager that it doesn't matter. Our guys already collected 5 signatures but we likely wont submit. Kind of a waste of time and I'm simply not up to the fall out.

    Of note, we only hit 3 good sized races this summer. All 3 had different rules for limited. Atlanta, is different than NAMBA. Michigan Cup was different from Atlanta and NAMBA. The CanAm was different than NAMBA, the Cup, and Atlanta.

    You "could" offer them for your event as exhibition as Dave described. However if I remember correctly, for your gig you will need a max boat count in the 230-235 range. Somewhere in there. Based on your expected client/racer it would make more sense to increase the allowed number of gas mono/cat/T boat (or something) than it would to add exhibition classes. Just makes sense. I don't know. Above my pay grade.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    b. Optional special events may be offered.
    Not to get all lawyer...y but do they define "special event" anywhere? We don't refer to any other classes as "events" but "special events" means exhibition classes? Other places in the book like for instance a racer with three penalties should be disqualified from the "event". But for a nats we assume that a "special event" is a class. Makes no damned sense at all.

    If a driver incurs 3 of any combination of Infraction Penalties or Heat Disqualifications during the course of a sanctioned racing event regardless of the hull or motor classes the penalties were committed, the driver will be disqualified from the entire event and all points accumulated during that event will be lost.

    Nobody realizes either that what I just posted includes lane infractions as well as DQ's. I never realized either that enforcement is in fact NOT optional. Blew that call a coupe times at a single event. Tangent! Sorry.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    Actually the IMPBA Board WAS following the Rule Book at the "2018 FE Nationals" since this was an "Annual International and National Regatta" as specified on page E3 of the Rule Book: https://nebula.wsimg.com/bba6c9da9b8...&alloworigin=1

    Here's the part that applies:

    2. An IMPBA National Regatta will consist of multi-boat heat racing run using one of the approved
    Nationals formats.
    a. Established IMPBA engine classifications will be offered for National Champion status.
    b. Optional special events may be offered.
    c. A minimum of 6 boats per class must be presented for racing.
    d. The winners at an IMPBA National Regatta will be awarded ?National Champion?. Special events winners will be awarded First, Second, Third Place.

    What I mean is if a club is awarded a "Nats or Nationals" designation, as the rules are now a new club could not offer "special events". I've submitted a proposal to our IMPBA President to change this unfair rule, it should be discussed and voted on in December.

    Hopefully the Board will see that this is unfair and unjust to new clubs should they be awarded a (regional) "Nats or Nationals" designation.
    Yes Terry they were allowed to include Spec as Special Events or Exhibition Classes as I called them. But were it went wrong is that can?t award Special Events with a National Champion status on the awards. It specifically says that in the rules.
    d. The winners at an IMPBA National Regatta will be awarded ?National Champion?. Special
    events winners will be awarded First, Second, Third Place.
    Have fun with that....

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Sorry Terry. Yer making me giggle. You know where I am on it. I'm not the only one of the same opinion you just expressed. There are other districts asking the same kind of questions. It's a safe wager that it doesn't matter. Our guys already collected 5 signatures but we likely wont submit. Kind of a waste of time and I'm simply not up to the fall out.

    Of note, we only hit 3 good sized races this summer. All 3 had different rules for limited. Atlanta, is different than NAMBA. Michigan Cup was different from Atlanta and NAMBA. The CanAm was different than NAMBA, the Cup, and Atlanta.

    You "could" offer them for your event as exhibition as Dave described. However if I remember correctly, for your gig you will need a max boat count in the 230-235 range. Somewhere in there. Based on your expected client/racer it would make more sense to increase the allowed number of gas mono/cat/T boat (or something) than it would to add exhibition classes. Just makes sense. I don't know. Above my pay grade.

    Bummer. Sorry, I thought we were offering P Limited as you guys run it, I pulled the wording right off your MMEU site IIRC.

    No matter, what I'm asking is why not just make it like the NAMBA Rule? Simple, easy to tech Sunday night at a Record Trial, in the dark, at 40* in the pouring rain!

    I think your original proposal had a weight limit correct? To prevent guys from re-winding the arms? I've also heard this doesn't make a huge difference in performance, maybe just reliability? If so why not scrap that part as NAMBA obviously has in the interest of simplicity?

    In the end what this all boils down to for us is that we WANT you guys to be part of our Can-Am event. Sure we could probably fill the classes with more LSG and possibly Nitro but having all three power sources is super cool IMHO. It represents what we "do" as a hobby/sport!

    ps: "special event" has always been interpreted as anything the host club wants to run at THEIR "International Regatta". They've run Thunderboats at the Nitro Nats, Single F hydro, Twin Hydro (before it was an official class) etc, etc. Your "P Limited" classes were run under this clause I'm sure, the only stipulations I see is that they're run after the "official" classes ('93 Nats in Ft. Wayne ran out of time IIRC) and that you don't award "National Champion" (or US1) trophies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Yes Terry they were allowed to include Spec as Special Events or Exhibition Classes as I called them. But were it went wrong is that can?t award Special Events with a National Champion status on the awards. It specifically says that in the rules.
    d. The winners at an IMPBA National Regatta will be awarded ?National Champion?. Special
    events winners will be awarded First, Second, Third Place.
    If "special classes" were awarded "National Champion" trophies that was probably just an unfortunate oversight.

    In the "Big Picture" though there was an IMPBA "Fast Electric National Regatta", the first one run in 17 years! Classes were run as per our IMPBA Rule book and special events were run that were clearly defined for all well in advance.

    Cudos for the host MMEU club for hosting such a prestigious event. If you came away from that with an award you should be very proud!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    In the end what this all boils down to for us is that we WANT you guys to be part of our Can-Am event. Sure we could probably fill the classes with more LSG and possibly Nitro but having all three power sources is super cool IMHO. It represents what we "do" as a hobby/sport!
    Thanks Terry. We enjoy attending. I've never been a fuel guy. In fact, for a long time I wasn't a fan of mixed events but between you guys and he Atlanta gang I've come to really enjoy it. We get to see it all. Very partial to Thunderboats. I've also found that we're all the same. Model boaters. We're an odd lot. A little quirky. A lot silly. Mostly though.......everybody wants to have fun. Of course it's competition. Otherwise why bother but I think the vast majority see the hobby for what it is.

    The only difference between what we proposed and what NAMBA adopted was 2mm in length. No weight limit was included.

    I wasn't being critical of your event on the limited rule thing either. Only pointing out that there was a difference from race to race even though the intention was to be the same.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    If "special classes" were awarded "National Champion" trophies that was probably just an unfortunate oversight.
    I really don?t want to get into this mess again... but it was NO oversight Terry. The questions of if Spec classes would be awarded National Champion status came up months in advance of the race. I personally talked to the FE Director on the phone and made the leadership at MMEU aware of the problem months before the race. I was told to go pound sand. In the words of an individual with IMPBA leadership... they can do whatever they want.
    All of that is what lead to me publicly calling out IMPBA for not following the rules. They felt that as long as they could get away with allowing the spec classes to race and be awarded National Championship status then there would be no reason to EVER put the classes in the rule book.
    The FE Director personally told me that I?m the only one who cares that the rules aren?t be followed. They knew... but they viewed that allowing the rules to be skated around was better then allowing spec classes in the rule book. The FE Director as told me that if he has his way Spec classes will never be in the rule book and that if there is another FE Nats he would still allow National Champion status on the awards. Again... this was NO OVERSIGHT.

    None the less... I’m not going to re-litigate that mess. Bottom line is that it sounds like you understand the rules and plan on following them. For that I clap my hands and hope the IMPBA leadership doesn’t lead you down a road of skating around the rules the way they previously did. Push your original question... push to get Spec Classes in the rule book. That’s what should be done. That’s what I was pushing for.
    Last edited by dethow; 09-23-2019 at 12:13 PM.
    Have fun with that....

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    I really don?t want to get into this mess again... but it was NO oversight Terry. The questions of if Spec classes would be awarded National Champion status came up months in advance of the race. I personally talked to the FE Director on the phone and made the leadership at MMEU aware of the problem months before the race. I was told to go pound sand. In the words of an individual with IMPBA leadership... they can do whatever they want.
    All of that is what lead to me publicly calling out IMPBA for not following the rules. They felt that as long as they could get away with allowing the spec classes to race and be awarded National Championship status then there would be no reason to EVER put the classes in the rule book.
    The FE Director personally told me that I?m the only one who cares that the rules aren?t be followed. They knew... but they viewed that allowing the rules to be skated around was better then allowing spec classes in the rule book. The FE Director as told me that if he has his way Spec classes will never be in the rule book and that if there is another FE Nats he would still allow National Champion status on the awards. Again... this was NO OVERSIGHT.

    Oh well, if it happened as you say (there are always two sides to every story or course) it was a mistake, they do happen you know. Again, in the big scheme of things it really isn't that important, what IS important is that there was an IMPBA "FE National Regatta" that was well attended and fun for all. That's what this is supposed to be about, right?

    I won't discuss this anymore as it is ancient history and flogging a dead horse doesn't benefit anyone.

    It's also not why I started this thread if you read my original post again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    Why can't we get this done?
    It could be that the concern is that FE has too many classes already. We do. For sure. The problem with FE is that as it evolves we keep every class on the books regardless of need. This isn't unique to IMPBA. Once it's in there it's forever.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    It could be that the concern is that FE has too many classes already. We do. For sure. The problem with FE is that as it evolves we keep every class on the books regardless of need. This isn't unique to IMPBA. Once it's in there it's forever.
    Yup! I'm sure that has a lot to do with it but from what I see on the outside looking in is that "P-Limited" is a very popular class and should be in the Rule Book. If the only difference between what you proposed and the NAMBA rule is 2mm maybe that's not the real issue, maybe it IS that there will be too many classes.

    Maybe what you guys really need to do is pare down some of the classes that aren't run much anymore. The gas guys did this a few years ago when they eliminated "other than" piston port intakes, the records were archived and the other classes prospered. We are kinda in the same boat in nitro IMHO, we have classes that are not run much but are in the books, too many classes for too few contestants.

    So, if that's the real issue (too many classes) why don't you look at cleaning house a bit? I know it will be unpopular with the record holders but if they are archived their names are there forever showing their accomplishments. And the majority will be better off.

    Do you really need "N Stock" AND "N Super Stock"? What about N (2 cell)? Do you really need Q, S & T? What about just a T? (10 cell). What about a "big cell" class only that has 6-10 cells? I don't see much difference in speeds for these records.

    That's what I'd be looking at if I were you guys.

    ps: It doesn't have to in there forever, classes can and are removed. The organization is very democratic if you follow procedures and go through the proper channels...

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    Terry, I tried to do exactly as you described. It was an effort to get rid of something useless and replace it with something that made heats. I was shot down on paring down the classes too. We have to save those old classes for one or two guys that ran them at a time trial once per year. We haven't seen a heat of some classes for 5 plus years now.
    Noisy person

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    I can't help but continue to be amazed at how badly grown men can behave over toy boats. Not you guys here, it's those who seem to like to run and control associations, ignoring the membership, constitutions and so on. Sort of spoils the fun doesn't it?
    The class thing is the thing really. Like you guys, we now have 10 gazillion FE classes but can hardly put together anything more than P mono as a class at a regatta. Mostly this was done by one person just so they could set as many records as possible. Something because it exists I have been able to do as well, but whatever for that, I am over our national association and their bs!
    Looking at how to grow FE in our club I am thinking through what will work best, be fair for racing, simple and generally affordable.
    So far I am at;
    P-Q Offshore and Hydro, max 6000 mah.
    Open Electric, max 12s 10,000mah.
    Pretty much just three classes, hard to be any more simple.
    NZMPBA 2013, 2016 Open Electric Champion. NZMPBA 2016 P Offshore Champion.
    2016 SUHA Q Sport Hydro Hi Points Champion.
    BOPMPBC Open Mono, Open Electric Champion.

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    I do not think we should use the logic that there are too many classes to suppress a popular and functioning class. Who cares how many classes are in the rule book. It does not mean your club has to offer them on a flyer. People will build and support boats that others in their area are running. Numbers will dictate what runs. Not having consistent national rules for maybe the largest group of FE racers is a shame and does not help promote growth.
    Yes N-S and T are rarely run and if offered at a national event there would need to be some minimum number to make the class. P and Q then maybe open would cover things then add limited classes to suit the needs in an area.
    Gas keeps adding classes almost every time we turn around and they are filling them and growing.
    Mic

    Mic Halbrehder
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    Just so there is no confusion, I am in New Zealand and our club numbers only 15 or so. Mostly it is gassers but the interest in electric is growing...slowly. There are some issues in getting batteries, mostly at reasonable prices, it means buying out of HobbyKing Australia and a four week delivery. Most other stuff is available with no real problems from OSE and other sites. Next to no FE stuff available in NZ apart from the pathetic RTR offerings (Sonicwake!)
    In another perspective, the entire New Zealand Model Powerboat Association numbers only in the 50's, and very likely to be a few less next year! They just don't get the bit where they need boaters more than the boaters need them!
    NZMPBA 2013, 2016 Open Electric Champion. NZMPBA 2016 P Offshore Champion.
    2016 SUHA Q Sport Hydro Hi Points Champion.
    BOPMPBC Open Mono, Open Electric Champion.

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    You may be right Mic but when last I proposed a limited to IMPBA there were some that felt we already had too many. Myself included. I wanted to drop the 2s classes. All of them. It would have cleared out 13 classes that haven't made heats that I'm aware of in years. Key being "that I'm aware of". I don't know everyone obviously.

    I just looked again. IMPBA FE has 5 power levels and 5 hull classifications. So that's 25 classes. Then N stock and N super stock adds 8 more. So that's 33. Then throw in scale unlimited for a grand total of 34 classes to get distracted by. If "limited" was added that makes for 39 classes to choose from if you open the book. Not sure about NAMBA. I penned and filed 10th scale vintage and modern. I didn't bother with signatures on that. We'll just run that locally.

    I wonder how many gas classes there actually are. I'm not sure I could even figure it out. I'm so fuel ignorant.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    You may be right Mic but when last I proposed a limited to IMPBA there were some that felt we already had too many. Myself included. I wanted to drop the 2s classes. All of them. It would have cleared out 13 classes that haven't made heats that I'm aware of in years. Key being "that I'm aware of". I don't know everyone obviously.

    I just looked again. IMPBA FE has 5 power levels and 5 hull classifications. So that's 25 classes. Then N stock and N super stock adds 8 more. So that's 33. Then throw in scale unlimited for a grand total of 34 classes to get distracted by. If "limited" was added that makes for 39 classes to choose from if you open the book. Not sure about NAMBA. I penned and filed 10th scale vintage and modern. I didn't bother with signatures on that. We'll just run that locally.

    I wonder how many gas classes there actually are. I'm not sure I could even figure it out. I'm so fuel ignorant.
    Wow! That's a lot of classes, I still dread "How to tech a Paradox" should someone set an N Stock or N Super Stock record at Flint one of these years.

    Pretty easy to see how many classes there are, just look at the records: https://www.impba.net/rule-book.html

    If it's a recognized National class there's a record for it. The largest segment of our hobby (LSG) has only 17 classes, they realized what was working, cut the fat off the bone and archived the old records. Nitro and FE could learn from that. I hear you too Mic, but if there's only so many boaters to go around having a limited number of classes works best. Guys don't usually check what's popular in their area, they look at what's available and then build it to find there's no one to race against. Or they race it in their area only to find out no one else in the country races it.

    Then they just quit and do something else.

    ps: Here's what happened to L, N-1, O-1 & O-2 ten years ago: https://nebula.wsimg.com/aafae923672...&alloworigin=1

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    Ed was the cream of the crop. That gauge by which all will be measured hence forth IMO.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Ed was the cream of the crop. That gauge by which all will be measured hence forth IMO.
    That's for sure! Very generous soul that gave much of himself to our hobby/sport.

    Godspeed Ed!

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    [Reaching into pockets] ...look, i want to thank you guys for maintaining composure here. I know this is a sensitive topic and you all seem to remember that no matter which side of the fence you sit, the ones replying here are not your enemy and not the individual(s) responsible for your frustrations.
    I've got $0.02 to chime in on the class removal discussion. I had an N cat that i ran in SAW, although no one seems to run N in heat racing, if they remove the class then i can no longer run N in any SAW event. So does that make the latest record holder forever on the books with no way to challenge?
    "A quick temper will make a fool of you soon enough."
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Bruce Lee. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

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    I don't think they're going anywhere Danny. The BOD slam dunked that idea outright.

    It's remaining civil because I simply refuse to respond to efforts to paint Tom and I as a tyrants.
    Noisy person

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