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Thread: Issues with boat continually cutting out???

  1. #1
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    Default Issues with boat continually cutting out???

    Hi guys,

    I have an Osprey mono with following specs:

    Turnigy 56 series motor (1320kv I think)

    Swordfish 240A ESC

    Zop Power 6S 4000mah 60C (2 in parallel)

    452 prop

    I took the boat for its first run the other day, and I keep having an issue with the boat briefly cutting out every second-it sounds as though it's changing gears. Very occasionally it may get on plane and allow full power for approx 4 seconds before cutting out again.

    Bringing the boat back in to check temps I recorded the following (all temps in degrees Celsius):

    ESC: 75

    ESC Capacitors: 105

    Motor: 40



    If you look at the rooster tail you'll see it constantly cutting out. Toward the end it gets a solid run of about 4 seconds.

    What is going on here? I was reading on a similar thread how the LVC kicks in on the Hobbywing 180, could the same thing be happening on my Swordfish 240? Do I need extra capacitors to ensure a constant flow of current to the motor? Would some type of temperature cutout be kicking in, the capacitors @105C seem extremely hot. Is the prop too big, though a large 56 motor surely should be able to handle it.

  2. #2
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    Voltage cuts-off. Try a smaller prop and see if it cuts out. Or program the controller...for lower voltage cut-off.

  3. #3
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    Cool

    If you don’t know the motor Kv it is tough to diagnose the problem if the prop is the issue. The most likely cause is the LVC. What is the setting now? Set the LVC to 3.0-3.2 volts and see if that helps.

    Your packs may not be able to supply sufficient voltage under high load, from what I read they don’t have a good rep when used in high load applications. Plus, others report that the rated capacity is way too high, the actual capacity was almost half of the published rating. This would mean that in theory your packs would max out at 280 amps, but if the C rating is also inflated (Zop is known to do this) then the max amp draw for your packs may be well under 200 amps. I don’t know that this is the case with your packs, but it is one possibility. Lowering the LVC value would help with this.


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  4. #4
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    Thankyou for the responses. I'll try changing the LVC tomorrow. And yes I've heard Zop Power aren't the best of batteries, there's some Revo's i have lying around somewhere i should solder some connections on and give a try as well.

  5. #5
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    It could be the esc. I had two SF220 esc's that did similar but not as bad. They would cut out briefly at full throttle. One did about 10 runs and died, the other damaged itself and was unuseable. Hope it's not for you but if so you can send them to heifei for repair, still no guarantees though.
    NZMPBA 2013, 2016 Open Electric Champion. NZMPBA 2016 P Offshore Champion.
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  6. #6
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    The motor is a Turnigy T20 1280kv for info. The ESC has standard capacitors. Additional capacitors were purchased but not as yet fitted. Initially programmed for a soft start.

    Edit: when I looked back over the build log I believe that the ESC is a Hifei Swordfish Pro 200 amp (200 amp continuous/240 amp max for 5 seconds) with remote BEC. I cannot recall if this one made it in the final build or the 240 amp ESC was fitted. The manufacturer spec max amp draw on the T20 when wired for 1280kv is 228 amps. I am wondering if I erred a little with the ESC selection.
    Last edited by Old School; 09-01-2019 at 06:56 PM. Reason: Additional info

  7. #7
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    The motor Kv is good for a 6S boat, but 6S isn’t very much for a 42” boat. Most boaters will run either 8S or 10S in a boat that size, running 6S means about 35% to 70% more amp draw for the same performance. But that is a separate issue...

    The problem is almost certainly the LVC, setting it lower should help with the cut offs during acceleration. That is not due to the ESC maximum amperage rating, higher rated ESCs would have the same problem as long as the LVC operated properly. Why it is cutting off is likely that the amp draw is too much for the packs to supply enough voltage under load. Better batteries would solve that problem. A smaller prop coukd help, but reduced thrust means even lower performance.

    I am only indirectly familiar with those ESCs as I have watched numerous fellow club members use them. If they have good over-amp protection, then the cutting out could be that protective circuit. But I have seen too many Swordfish burn up (nearly a dozen) to have much faith in their amp protection.


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  8. #8
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    Fluid,
    many thanks. 8s would give around 35,000 rpm which may be a little high but still reasonable. My son has a fair collection of batteries so all it would need is reprogramming the ESC (Swordfish pro 200 is good for up to 8s I believe) and suitable batteries. If a 240 amp model then I believe good for up to 12s. The motor is dual rateable so could be rewired for 730kv. Thus if setting the LVC is not a fix then he has a couple of alternative fixes, although continuing on with 6s is obviously going to mean higher amps and temperatures. I believe that the boat has potential so worth further investigating.

  9. #9
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    Yep, 8S with that wind is too much. Those who run 8S and 10S use lower Kvs, often around 800-900. The 730 Kv wind would work too, just needs a slightly bigger prop. Most certainly continue with the boat and keep us posted.


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  10. #10
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    Fluid,
    many thanks. From memory I had intended for the boat to run 730kv on 10s, however as two other project needed 6s batteries for a 6s and a 12s setup, I decided to save purchasing additional batteries and just go with 6s on this build.
    Last edited by Old School; 09-01-2019 at 09:27 PM. Reason: Additional info

  11. #11
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    Yes Old School was correct, it is a Swordfish 200A Pro ESC.

  12. #12
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    So I changed the LVC down to 3V and soldered a Hifei cap bank onto the ESC. The problems seem to have virtually gone, maybe still some very occasional cutouts.

    I did 2 runs, first with Revo packs, second with Zops, couldn't notice any discernable difference between them. A funny thing happened, on both runs the boat got slightly airborne then plunged into the water, fully submerged for several seconds before bobbing back up to the surface. By the third run i think some water got into the reciever and killed it, I've replaced it this afternoon and the boat is working again. Thanks for your help guys.

  13. #13
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    Hello FE friends,

    Going to see if I can revive this thread. I am having the same issue with my twin cat running 240 Swordfish ESC's.

    Set up:
    Delta force explorer, carbon inlay
    Swordfish Pro plus 240 HV ESC's
    1000kv 4082 Leopard Motors
    Fly Sky GR3E receiver and GT3B Trans
    Tenergy 6v 2000mAh NiMH receiver battery
    Power HD D-15HV servo
    Running 12s with 2x 6s Zeee 6000 mAh packs in series, common to both ESC's


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRgmXNl4rtw


    According to the data logs I'm only pulling a maximum of 156A with the voltage dipping to 42.5v at the lowest point, this got me to 100mph. Trends show throttle signal is coming through, leading me to believe it's not a receiver problem but an ESC problem.


    What I have tried;
    LVC is set to lowest possible setting, 4s 2.5v. Did not solve problem
    Separate power sources, 6s per ESC, on their own battery. Did not solve the problem
    Props from 442's to 50mm plus, 2 and 3 blade. All the same results
    Made wooden block to get receiver away from carbon. Did not solve the problem
    Switched receivers (in kind). No change
    Changed Y cable, no change
    Pulled positive wire in Y cable, no change

    IMG_9822.jpg

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks
    Last edited by mmars89; 05-17-2022 at 07:57 PM.

  14. #14
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    Your weak link here are the swordfish esc's. I have in recent months seen several develop issues on 10s in 1/8 scales with fairly low amp draw, including cutting out and stopping working, then later working ok on the bench, or even blowing the + lead off! I had a SF 300 that went well with a Castle 2028 though. The 240 doesn't like water either.
    The only other problem might be your radio, they can do funny things at times, cutting out at particular spots on the water.
    NZMPBA 2013, 2016 Open Electric Champion. NZMPBA 2016 P Offshore Champion.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter A View Post
    Your weak link here are the swordfish esc's. I have in recent months seen several develop issues on 10s in 1/8 scales with fairly low amp draw, including cutting out and stopping working, then later working ok on the bench, or even blowing the + lead off! I had a SF 300 that went well with a Castle 2028 though. The 240 doesn't like water either.
    The only other problem might be your radio, they can do funny things at times, cutting out at particular spots on the water.
    It's definitely looking like it's the ESC's. I don't think it's the radio, it works flawless in multiple other boats, one being full carbon. Swapped receivers around and the problem stays with the ESC's. Also, the throttle signal shows no signs of dropping out on the data logs.

    When they decide to go, they go. Either one cuts out until I let off the throttle. Seems to be most prominent during acceleration. They will go then cut, repeatedly, getting a little higher RPM each step until they eventually decide to go wide open. Takes me half the lake to get them to go sometimes, but when they do light up, they do not drop out again. It's strange.
    Last edited by mmars89; 05-17-2022 at 07:54 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by hughb View Post
    Hi guys,

    I have an Osprey mono with following specs:

    Turnigy 56 series motor (1320kv I think)

    Swordfish 240A ESC

    Zop Power 6S 4000mah 60C (2 in parallel)

    452 prop

    I took the boat for its first run the other day, and I keep having an issue with the boat briefly cutting out every second-it sounds as though it's changing gears. Very occasionally it may get on plane and allow full power for approx 4 seconds before cutting out again.

    Bringing the boat back in to check temps I recorded the following (all temps in degrees Celsius):

    ESC: 75

    ESC Capacitors: 105

    Motor: 40



    If you look at the rooster tail you'll see it constantly cutting out. Toward the end it gets a solid run of about 4 seconds.

    What is going on here? I was reading on a similar thread how the LVC kicks in on the Hobbywing 180, could the same thing be happening on my Swordfish 240? Do I need extra capacitors to ensure a constant flow of current to the motor? Would some type of temperature cutout be kicking in, the capacitors @105C seem extremely hot. Is the prop too big, though a large 56 motor surely should be able to handle it.
    Some SF Esc doesn’t like running with some high wind motors, checkout Ironclad rc on YouTube, he had to return a SF because of the same issues that you’re having.

  17. #17
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    Thanks for the tip! I have a 2000kv 4074 in a rigger that I will try one with.

  18. #18
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    i think that motor is too hot for your setup, if you decide to, you’ll have to prop down to a x440 prop on 6s or a 448 on 4s.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chirper View Post
    i think that motor is too hot for your setup, if you decide to, you’ll have to prop down to a x440 prop on 6s or a 448 on 4s.
    I'm guessing you're referring to running the 2000kv motor I mentioned, in my twin cat on 12s? What's wrong with 90,000+ rpm??? ha. I planned to move the swordfish ESC's one at a time into my rigger, which is running a 2000kv leopard 4074 on 6s. This is for troubleshooting to see if the problem follows the ECS's or is something in the twin cat set-up.

    Thanks

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmars89 View Post
    I'm guessing you're referring to running the 2000kv motor I mentioned, in my twin cat on 12s? What's wrong with 90,000+ rpm??? ha. I planned to move the swordfish ESC's one at a time into my rigger, which is running a 2000kv leopard 4074 on 6s. This is for troubleshooting to see if the problem follows the ECS's or is something in the twin cat set-up.

    Thanks
    Vac-U-Tug Jr (13mph)

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mappo View Post
    2000kv on 6s? Would have to prop down to a x430 or so, otherwise you?re gonna have a Poof.

    Thanks for your opinion. Just looking for help with the cut-out problem, not if my set ups are acceptable to everyone's different standards. I understand the limits of electronics and I am fully aware that I'm pushing towards the upper end. I know things WILL break/fail at some point, I'm okay with that. I like fast things ha.

    Could this cut out problem have something to do with running high RPM, absolutely it could. However, I have had zero issues with excess heat and/or burning electronics. The twin cat (1000kv 4082's on 12s) runs surprisingly cool, was expecting much more heat. Ran up to 90mph with 646 props and 100mph with 1814(3) Dasboata props, electronics were nowhere near dangerous temperature levels after 3-4 pulls.

    Same goes for the rigger, running a 4074 2000kv on 6S with 442 de-tongued prop, and I don't run it conservatively, thing is a pure basher. Ran two 4000mAh packs in a row through it on the weekend, running hard, and the motor/ESC were around 100-110F, LiPo packs were getting a bit warm, around 120. Quite happy with that considering how "hot" of a set up it is, proven to be quite reliable actually. Wasn't sure if the Raider 150 that's currently in it was up to the task, sure impressed with that controller. (Mind you water temp was around 50F, I expect running temperatures to go up a fair bit as water temps increase throughout the summer)

    Thanks again for your concern and opinion. Still trying to narrow down what it is specifically that is causing the cut-out problem in the Swordfish 240's.

    Cheers
    Last edited by mmars89; 05-19-2022 at 10:19 AM.

  22. #22
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    I'll run 90k rpm. I ain't scared.

    Sent from my SM-G991W using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by mappo View Post
    Hey just realized that your temperature are in centigrade, wow! 167. Degrees Fahrenheit on Esc and over 220f+ quite hot for those capacitors. It seems like you’re pulling too many amps check your drive line, see if you’re binding. On your setup you should be around 47c on the Esc and pulling about 124 Amps otherwise the SF Esc is the problem

    Are you just messing with me now??? Better read my post again, clearly wrote F for "Fahrenheit" behind my temperature numbers. I would sure hope the lake wasn't 50C, poor fish...
    (By the way, if those number were in Celsius that would be 212-230F on the ESC/Motor and 248F on the LiPo. Not sure what kind of conversion you did to get 167F.. that would be 75C)


    I didn't post about the rigger originally, that came up because I planned to use it to test the Swordfish ESC's. It has a Raider 150 in it right now and there are no issues with it whatsoever, it runs great and reliably, and doesn't even light on fire... My post was about my twin cat Swordfish 240 ESC's cutting out. And if you read my posts, you will see that it too is running the same RPM as the rigger, only it's running 1000kv on 12S (estimated 39,960rpm at 90% efficiency). I have closely monitored amp draw and temperatures on it and have never seen any dangerous numbers. The most it ever pulled was 156A (according to the data logging) with the 1814(3) Dasboata props. Three wide open pulls with those props brought the motors and ESC's to roughly 140F (F = Fahrenheit).

    You seem to be quite the expert on my set ups though, any thoughts on what is causing the Swordfish 240 cut out problems? Or should we keep talking about the fact that I'm running a 2000kv motor on 6s with a x442DT and it isn't bursting into flames?

    Any help on the Swordfish 240 cut out problem would be appreciated.

    Thanks
    Last edited by mmars89; 05-20-2022 at 07:42 AM.

  24. #24
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    Data Logs. Twin Cat DF Explorer; Leopard 4082 1000kv 3Y motors, Swordfish 240 ESC's, 12S (2x 6S 6000mAh Zeee blue packs in series, common to both ESC's), Dasboata 1814(3) props. 2 pulls at full throttle.

    The cut out problem wasn't too bad this day, little bit to get it up on step and get it going but then she opened up. I've been trying to capture a data log when it's consistently cutting out, I will keep trying. The following logs have good info to see how this build runs though.

    Starboard Drive


    Port Drive



    The captures came out a little blurry and the numbers on the Y axis are impossible to read in the first place. The important numbers are up in the banner. For reference, starting voltage on these trends state 50.2V

    ESC Settings
    LVC: 4 cells
    Cutoff Voltage/Cell: 2.5V
    Brake Types: No Brake
    Timing Advance: Middle (5*-20*)
    Cutoff Type: Soft Cutoff
    Startup Type: Standard
    PWM Rate: 8KHz

    LVC is at the lowest possible settings, it won't let you shut it off completely. According to the manual this should equate to 10V before LVC kicks in. I've also tried setting it properly, at 12S 3.0V (it has pulled as low as 3.5V per cell on SAW runs).


    Better picture for reference.



    Sustained Cut-out problem video. This is as bad as it gets. If I continue to hold full throttle it will sustain like this. If I let off and get back into it, it resolves (sometimes takes a few tries).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRgmXNl4rtw

    In these videos you can hear it cutting at first, then I let off and re-pull quickly and she goes.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAkRAdzY_sI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYr2jXDDF-8


    **Running CNC 46mm 1.6P DT 2-blade props in these three videos. They pull less current than the 1814(3) props, around 120-130A if I remember correctly.

    Thanks
    Last edited by mmars89; 05-20-2022 at 03:15 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmars89 View Post
    Are you just messing with me now??? Better read my post again, clearly wrote F for "Fahrenheit" behind my temperature numbers. I would sure hope the lake wasn't 50C, poor fish...
    (By the way, if those number were in Celsius that would be 212-230F on the ESC/Motor and 248F on the LiPo. Not sure what kind of conversion you did to get 167F.. that would be 75C)



    I didn't post about the rigger originally, that came up because I planned to use it to test the Swordfish ESC's. It has a Raider 150 in it right now and there are no issues with it whatsoever, it runs great and reliably, and doesn't even light on fire... My post was about my twin cat Swordfish 240 ESC's cutting out. And if you read my posts, you will see that it too is running the same RPM as the rigger, only it's running 1000kv on 12S (estimated 39,960rpm at 90% efficiency). I have closely monitored amp draw and temperatures on it and have never seen any dangerous numbers. The most it ever pulled was 156A (according to the data logging) with the 1814(3) Dasboata props. Three wide open pulls with those props brought the motors and ESC's to roughly 140F (F = Fahrenheit).

    You seem to be quite the expert on my set ups though, any thoughts on what is causing the Swordfish 240 cut out problems? Or should we keep talking about the fact that I'm running a 2000kv motor on 6s with a x442DT and it isn't bursting into flames?

    Any help on the Swordfish 240 cut out problem would be appreciated.

    Thanks
    That was in response to Hugh b from Queensland with his temps in centigrade. sorry about that!
    Do you know what the biggest problem with the world is?
    That the Smartest people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence.::tt2

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmars89 View Post
    Hello FE friends,

    Going to see if I can revive this thread. I am having the same issue with my twin cat running 240 Swordfish ESC's.

    Set up:
    Delta force explorer, carbon inlay
    Swordfish Pro plus 240 HV ESC's
    1000kv 4082 Leopard Motors
    Fly Sky GR3E receiver and GT3B Trans
    Tenergy 6v 2000mAh NiMH receiver battery
    Power HD D-15HV servo
    Running 12s with 2x 6s Zeee 6000 mAh packs in series, common to both ESC's


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRgmXNl4rtw


    According to the data logs I'm only pulling a maximum of 156A with the voltage dipping to 42.5v at the lowest point, this got me to 100mph. Trends show throttle signal is coming through, leading me to believe it's not a receiver problem but an ESC problem.


    What I have tried;
    LVC is set to lowest possible setting, 4s 2.5v. Did not solve problem
    Separate power sources, 6s per ESC, on their own battery. Did not solve the problem
    Props from 442's to 50mm plus, 2 and 3 blade. All the same results
    Made wooden block to get receiver away from carbon. Did not solve the problem
    Switched receivers (in kind). No change
    Changed Y cable, no change
    Pulled positive wire in Y cable, no change

    IMG_9822.jpg

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks

    Just realized that it’s a revised thread, I was responding to HUGh B” from Aus.
    Do you know what the biggest problem with the world is?
    That the Smartest people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence.::tt2

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mappo View Post
    Just realized that it’s a revised thread, I was responding to HUGh B” from Aus.
    Ha ha that makes sense, I was confused. Sorry I missed that. I probably should have started a new thread to avoid confusion. My bad!

    Thanks!
    Cheers

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