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Thread: NAMBA P-LIMITED Motor List - Pro Boat Motors NO LONGER AVAILABLE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    I find it odd that, in EVERY OTHER CLASS in NAMBA, where motors are WIDE OPEN and people can spend as much or as little as they want, nobody is complaining about the balance of competition, or that there are TOO many motors available. And, people are TRUSTED to be able to decide for themselves what motor they want to run. Some go WAY overkill (Terry?? Ken?? Mike?? ) and others go with the "enough" power method (did you know I set the RC Boating's FASTEST EVER 2-Laps for ANY OPC Tunnel ANYWHERE using 4S1P and a mere 3640-sized TP motor? In other words... JUST enough power... )... BUT, we are all able to decide for ourselves in these classes.
    For the record and the risk of getting off topic slightly; I actually think the scenario your describing is eventually going to hurt FE racing in general. Just a few years ago the GO-TO setup for most P boats was a NEU 1515 1Y. Now we have access to TP motors 1/3 longer (4070) with roughly the same KV, and it's only $140! this all equals an instant 5-8 MPH increase... Good for the hobby?

    You keep referencing your Tunnel boat and your records.... As soon as someone breaks your record using a 40 series motor are you going to keep working with the 3640, because it's "JUST enough"? Guess what, it's not enough anymore! If you really valued your record you will do what it takes to get it back, and that includes changing to a different motor.

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    Years ago in the world of RC oval racing cars, we were able to keep the “spec” class a level playing field by using “hand-out” motors and batteries. When you arrive at the race and paid your entry fee, we handed you the cells and the motor. Immediately after the event we quarantined your car if you had a podium finish. We proceeded to closely inspect and unwind the motor, etc.. All of the racers knew what to expect, and I don’t recall any problems. Would it work with boats?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayzerdesigns View Post
    I truly hope the 2 organizations can come close to being on the same page. And maybe people will race more or travel to some races more..that being said��.. winter warmups in beautiful Arizona in February!! Sorry had to��
    You keep saying this, but there were NO efforts to reach out to ANYONE on the BOD of the IMPBA to develop a working relationship! The notion that the IMPBA "needs" to follow NAMBA is ridiculous just because there is a new proposal out there.

    The only justification for a 60mm limit I have heard so far is - lots of motors to choose from. It was quoted elsewhere that 60mm limit would net you "20-30 motors to choose from". No one seems to care that 20%-30% (estimate) of those motors will even be worth a crap. Case in point, Turnigy motor it fits but Ray, you've already eluded to the fact that several have burnt up! What kind of message is that to someone wanting to get into the hobby?

    Traveling doesn't have anything to do with motor sizes! Everyone is still using the same motors that were being bitched about6-8 years ago! The majority of racers are still using products from ProBoat or AquaCraft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by longballlumber View Post
    You keep referencing your Tunnel boat and your records.... As soon as someone breaks your record using a 40 series motor are you going to keep working with the 3640, because it's "JUST enough"? Guess what, it's not enough anymore!
    Actually, YES... I'll keep using it. I hadn't even scratched the surface of the motor's potential. The hull was the limiting factor...

    Most of you WAY overpower your setups... Just sayin'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by longballlumber View Post
    You keep saying this, but there were NO efforts to reach out to ANYONE on the BOD of the IMPBA to develop a working relationship! The notion that the IMPBA "needs" to follow NAMBA is ridiculous just because there is a new proposal out there.

    The only justification for a 60mm limit I have heard so far is - lots of motors to choose from. It was quoted elsewhere that 60mm limit would net you "20-30 motors to choose from". No one seems to care that 20%-30% (estimate) of those motors will even be worth a crap. Case in point, Turnigy motor it fits but Ray, you've already eluded to the fact that several have burnt up! What kind of message is that to someone wanting to get into the hobby?

    Traveling doesn't have anything to do with motor sizes! Everyone is still using the same motors that were being bitched about6-8 years ago! The majority of racers are still using products from ProBoat or AquaCraft.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post

    Most of you WAY overpower your setups... Just sayin'.
    Painting with a broad brush but there certainly are some...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    Painting with a broad brush but there certainly are some...
    Just working the percentages...

    Mike is right, in the end, however, regarding traveling, etc. HOW many actually do that? Hell, I don't even do it much anymore.

    All this Rules-Bantering/Bashing/Hashing really only affects ONE event per year. Clubs are going to do whatever they want. So, in the end, all this only affects a handful of people.

    We, as a club, were able to talk for about an hour, over two seasons ago, and put this in place. Limitations are slightly different, but still simple, physical, dimensional limitations, and racing hasn't been hindered. Participation is as strong as ever.

    Honestly, this doesn't affect me much, as I 1) Am not racing as much as I used to, 2) Don't plan to travel much, and 3) Have developed the position of "just tell me what the rules are, and if I like them, I'll participate. Otherwise... He Gone"...

    Just not worth making enemies over something that really doesn't matter locally. And, Frankly, if people can't come together and do SOMETHING logical, the class will die, and that's OK too. Plenty of other places to put your resources.
    Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by jevmax View Post
    Years ago in the world of RC oval racing cars, we were able to keep the “spec” class a level playing field by using “hand-out” motors and batteries. When you arrive at the race and paid your entry fee, we handed you the cells and the motor. Immediately after the event we quarantined your car if you had a podium finish. We proceeded to closely inspect and unwind the motor, etc.. All of the racers knew what to expect, and I don’t recall any problems. Would it work with boats?
    There is your Nats. answer Mike. Build the cost into the entry fees for those classes. Shoot, maybe more guys will put on their big boy panties and build P & up class boats..
    You know fellas we don't help those classes when a guy comes on here and says he wants to build a Q Sport and he's told "If you want to heat race you'd better build a P Limited Sport". So we're going to race this limited crap forever? Not me....I can pull a rope and have more high performance racing than I can stand! Just sayin...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post

    Just not worth making enemies over something that really doesn't matter locally. And, Frankly, if people can't come together and do SOMETHING logical, the class will die, and that's OK too. Plenty of other places to put your resources.
    Roger that...OVER.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    Most of you WAY overpower your setups... Just sayin'.
    Why are you guys always trying to single me out!
    Attachment 162656
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaceMechaniX View Post
    Why are you guys always trying to single me out!
    Attachment 162656
    Hahahahaha... You're a Bad, BAD man, Tyler!!
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    For the record, I didn't run a 1515 in P anything until I was told that was all I needed. Time trials fall of 2017 was the first shot with a 1515 in a Pearl. My P boats had bigger motors than that back in 2009. Before that they were Hacker 7,8,9XL motors. Some Aveox too. By 2009, only my limited and N2 boats were smaller than a 1521.

    Jim, the problem with hand outs is the cost to host an event. A club like MMEU would be looking to supply motors and batteries for maybe 50 boats give or take. We could pass the cost on to the racers but who's coming when the entry fee for each spec class is $150?

    Doug, go in to your local hobby shop and buy a gas race boat. How about a P sport? Right off the shelf. Not happening is it? So he finds someone to show him how to build one. Really want brand new guy racing 70mph with his first boat? Good plan.

    As for IMPBA and NAMBA working together at all..............what are we trying to do here? He said, she said, who follows who's ideas.............I give ABSOLUTELY zero craps about. Without spec/limited there will be little to NO FE racing. Not at mixed races. Not at stand alone races. Without it guys are not going to show up. Any that don't see that are either not paying attention or are not participating in events.

    IMPBA's resistance to limited as it was made perfect sense to me. There were so many holes in what we were doing. It's a broken rule set. Was from the start. We were too ignorant to see it. Some of us at least (I count myself among them). The debate over the flaws was endless and heated. The BOD wanted nothing to do with that nonsense. Who could blame them?

    This new idea, what ever it comes down to (36 x whatever?) is only going to be controversial if we make it so. As it is, we're merely discussing the length of the can and how to keep a 1415 out. Other than that...............what other controversy is there on this? Egos aside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jevmax View Post
    Years ago in the world of RC oval racing cars, we were able to keep the “spec” class a level playing field by using “hand-out” motors and batteries. When you arrive at the race and paid your entry fee, we handed you the cells and the motor. Immediately after the event we quarantined your car if you had a podium finish. We proceeded to closely inspect and unwind the motor, etc.. All of the racers knew what to expect, and I don’t recall any problems. Would it work with boats?
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    There is your Nats. answer Mike. Build the cost into the entry fees for those classes. Shoot, maybe more guys will put on their big boy panties and build P & up class boats..
    You know fellas we don't help those classes when a guy comes on here and says he wants to build a Q Sport and he's told "If you want to heat race you'd better build a P Limited Sport". So we're going to race this limited crap forever? Not me....I can pull a rope and have more high performance racing than I can stand! Just sayin...
    I agree this is more along the lines of what I would consider a spec or limited type class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by racemechanix View Post
    why are you guys always trying to single me out!
    Attachment 162656
    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Other than that...............what other controversy is there on this? Egos aside.
    People hate simplicity in reading, tech'ing, and enforcing rules?
    People hate having to think for themselves?
    People are generally Socialists/Communists and want "The State" to make all their decisions for them?

    All I could come up with off the top of my head...
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    Jim, the problem with hand outs is the cost to host an event. A club like MMEU would be looking to supply motors and batteries for maybe 50 boats give or take. We could pass the cost on to the racers but who's coming when the entry fee for each spec class is $150

    Good point Terry. Back in the 1990s when I used to hold the ROAR Nats and the U.S.Oval Masters at Lake Whipporwill International Speedway in Orlando, the “handout” motor method always worked great and really leveled the playing field. The motors and cells were provided to me at below wholesale cost by a race sponsor. After the race was over the sponsor had the option of having us return the excess or I would offer the excess cells and motors for
    sale in the Pro-Shop. Nobody ever complained about the cost. The competitors were happy to get a motor and cells below wholesale cost! Of course it was different with RC cars. Every year I had to limit the entries to no more than 100. However, FE boat racing is much smaller. Maybe the larger numbers made it feasible for us back then.

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    I'm not sure Jim. I'd have to think on it some.

    With a sponsor like that, they are getting the value of the exposure to 100 racers. Could be that's pretty good exposure to dollar ratio. Enough to justify the investment. The biggest FE race in the states to my knowledge was only 62 racers. HA! Think you were there Jim. Of those racers, about 24 were racing LSH at the time. Then maybe another 24 racing LSO. Most of them were the same guys running different days with the same 12 Nimh packs. At that time it wasn't uncommon.

    Quick math on a small nats to do it today if we got deals on stuff might be.....
    Motor $50....ish....maybe?
    4s5000 say maybe $75....ish?
    6 classes x maybe 10 entries average......

    so $3000 in motors and $4500 in batteries. Assuming you could find sponsors willing to front that.

    The battery sponsor would essentially lose about $30 a pack if they resold them. So an $1800 profit hit. I've not seen that kind of dough from any sponsor of an FE event. NATS or otherwise. Ever. Brand loyalty doesn't seem to happen for FE sponsors. FE guys will order off ebay to save 7$ shipping even though they have to way 10 more days and it's damaged when it gets there. It's an odd thing in truth.

    Then there is the issue of building your boat to fit battery x,y,z. We may run three different battery configurations in my kids Stealth depending on the wind. Those packs will NOT go into a Raptor rigger. Not happening. Then in offshore I like the weight so I carry 8k. Don't need 8k until about the 4th lap but finishing is king in OS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    I'm not sure Jim. I'd have to think on it some.

    With a sponsor like that, they are getting the value of the exposure to 100 racers. Could be that's pretty good exposure to dollar ratio. Enough to justify the investment. The biggest FE race in the states to my knowledge was only 62 racers. HA! Think you were there Jim. Of those racers, about 24 were racing LSH at the time. Then maybe another 24 racing LSO. Most of them were the same guys running different days with the same 12 Nimh packs. At that time it wasn't uncommon.

    Quick math on a small nats to do it today if we got deals on stuff might be.....
    Motor $50....ish....maybe?
    4s5000 say maybe $75....ish?
    6 classes x maybe 10 entries average......

    so $3000 in motors and $4500 in batteries. Assuming you could find sponsors willing to front that.

    The battery sponsor would essentially lose about $30 a pack if they resold them. So an $1800 profit hit. I've not seen that kind of dough from any sponsor of an FE event. NATS or otherwise. Ever. Brand loyalty doesn't seem to happen for FE sponsors. FE guys will order off ebay to save 7$ shipping even though they have to way 10 more days and it's damaged when it gets there. It's an odd thing in truth.

    Then there is the issue of building your boat to fit battery x,y,z. We may run three different battery configurations in my kids Stealth depending on the wind. Those packs will NOT go into a Raptor rigger. Not happening. Then in offshore I like the weight so I carry 8k. Don't need 8k until about the 4th lap but finishing is king in OS.
    Just my opinion, I wouldn't focus on batteries. voltage is voltage. Stick with the motors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by longballlumber View Post
    Just my opinion, I wouldn't focus on batteries. voltage is voltage. Stick with the motors.
    That’s a good point. Maybe just need to control the motors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    This new idea, what ever it comes down to (36 x whatever?) is only going to be controversial if we make it so. As it is, we're merely discussing the length of the can and how to keep a 1415 out. Other than that...............what other controversy is there on this? Egos aside.

    I agree with Terry, and had some input on this while on vacation with him a couple weeks ago.

    Also, reading too many here are soooo good with the idea of the P-Ltd classes going away....
    I am definitely not and believe that this could seriously wreck the current FE participation
    as we know it today. Many of us still attend and have a lot of equipment, let's not be so
    cavalier about working this out properly. I will say that as I was originally opposed to
    the dimensional rules, time has proven Darin and others right on the possibility of the
    original motors someday going away. So here we are just in time to tweak things for next year.
    I would like there to be enough length for the Turnigy motor 60.25mm, the rest looks good to
    me. I do believe that putting the IMPBA suggested 258 gram limit would be a good backstop
    to definitely keep the Neu 1415 out of the class simply because that motor is just too good.
    Could be simple to even state in the proposal. "The Neu Model 1415 is not legal for the P-Ltd Classes"

    Another comment.....It would seem like a good idea to touch base on this rule
    proposal with the guys that travel all over the place and have who have taken
    the lead in other NAMBA districts before the concrete sets on the final details.
    This would also provide better support nationwide for the eventual vote itself.
    Arguably would be quite the opposite from the 1/8 Scale Motor Rule Vote and subsequent controversy.
    Just a suggestion
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    I can promise you that, if you put together a situation where, in order to be "legal", you are required to be swapping motors in/out all the time, or you have to frequently pull a motor to be weighed, participation will drop. What a hassle.

    For handout motors... It'd be even more expensive that Terry described, because what is going to stop someone from over-propping the crap out of their system while they have a motor in, and then handing it in?? Next guy gets a pretty worn out motor.

    Honestly, guys... you are WAY overthinking this.
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    Not sure what the margins are on motors. $30 maybe? I suspect it's more. Another $1800 profit hit for someone IF he re-sells them for cost etc. I may be under thinking that.

    Then which motor do you pick? We're currently debating 60mm......or 60.2mm. Anybody want to decide if for the nats it's a Raider 2030/ Raider1750/Turnigy/Leopard/TP/SSS/Promarine/Dynamite 1500/Dynamite 2000/Himax/Aquacraft 2030/AQ1800/ahhhhhhhh?

    Once you make that determination, anyone truly interested in racing at the nats (or what ever we call it) would need to go out and buy for testing a number of those motors to get their boats sorted. Market cornered for that season. Woohoo! Good day to be the soul supplier of those motors! Heck, I was accused of being in Fine's pocket for supporting parallel packs. Wanna guess how it will go if we just pick any one of those as the "handout"? We lost a pocket of FE guys already because they felt that exactly happened already with Proboat and Aquacraft.

    Wouldn't it be wayyyyyy more simple.....er....er to just have a length x width specification? (Notice I dropped the weight?) No brand required, no list, no favoritism, no way to cheat, but more importantly it seems, no way for someone to suggest that someone was cheating when they weren't. I see that more than I see cheating and I watch for these things.

    Oh and there will still be the possibility, however remote, of a guy going into a local hobby shop and coming out with a race boat. Name another power level that you could waltz into a store and come out with something race able? I can't think of any but I'm ignorant to the ways of the fuel burners.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    . It'd be even more expensive that Terry described, because what is going to stop someone from over-propping the crap out of their system while they have a motor in, and then handing it in?? .
    Didn't even think of that.

    We've already seen different batches of the exact same motor have different quality. Some had different wire. So I bought motors to get my boat sorted. I get it perfect. I know the prop, the cg, the strut. It's coming in at 105 degrees. I drop in the handout and burn it to the water line in the second lap. Takes my esc with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post

    Honestly, guys... you are WAY overthinking this.
    Captain Obvious LOVES this comment! Truer words were have never been spoken (or typed)

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Doug, go in to your local hobby shop and buy a gas race boat. How about a P sport? Right off the shelf. Not happening is it? So he finds someone to show him how to build one. Really want brand new guy racing 70mph with his first boat? Good plan.

    This new idea, what ever it comes down to (36 x whatever?) is only going to be controversial if we make it so. As it is, we're merely discussing the length of the can and how to keep a 1415 out. Other than that...............what other controversy is there on this? Egos aside.
    Terry my brother,
    I'm pretty sure you can't buy a gas "race boat" a local hobby shop. Yet gas is the fastest growing segment of the hobby. Interesting huh?
    As a matter of fact the Super Sport Mono class (Stock 260 Zen and a tuned pipe) numbers are exploding. That engine rule saved Crackerbox BTW. I wonder what, if anything we can learn from the gas guys? Ever wonder if9+years of Limited motor debates has had any effect on FE growth?

    I see seasoned racers (nitro, gas, AND FE) that can't handle their 70mph boat so please understand why I fail to see your point there.

    So limited classes ARE beginner classes? I think that was a point of contention to at one time.
    The "bring your RTR and come race" went out the window a long time ago didn't it? Todays RTRs don't require any modifications / component changes to be competitive at a race like the Cup?

    We're set for 2019 and beyond I think. 36.5 x 56.5 is what D13 will be running in the GP series.
    As usual we'll see what's happening out there before the Spring Nats. is posted. That way we can continue to attract all those cross over "traveling racers" that have been left on the bank because of the lack of official IMPBA motor rules that don't mirror NAMBA.

    I agree on the handouts fellas, motor only. Get a deal if you can, pass the cost on in the entry fees, racer takes them home. I certainly wouldn't want to be handed one for a race that a "stator baker" ran for five rounds... Will I enter the classes, probably not...

    Happy Thanksgiving fellas!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    Ever wonder if9+years of Limited motor debates has had any effect on FE growth?
    Ever wonder if we had it right to begin with if there would have been a single drop of debate ever? Not sure if I need to get a siren with maybe a neon sign saying we blew it. Had we went size from day one there would have been no debate. I'll bet even the Wisconsin boys would still be racing FE.

    Limited was never intended to be a beginner class. It's a place for new guys and vets to run together. Chris Flemmings cat was out of the box. Won a national championship. Mike Stancombes boat was out of the box. Won a championship in Texas. So yes it can and has been done. Not a lot of stores have those on the shelves but he's working on it.

    If experienced guys can't handle going 70...............the new guy is better equipped to handle it? You lost me there.

    We're down to the length being the only real thing in question. Accept the "handout" idea which is a disaster in the making. $50+ entry per class wont get guys to race.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post

    Limited was never intended to be a beginner class. It's a place for new guys and vets to run together. Chris Flemmings cat was out of the box. Won a national championship. Mike Stancombes boat was out of the box. Won a championship in Texas. So yes it can and has been done. Not a lot of stores have those on the shelves but he's working on it.
    Mike out of the box RTR is where it's at. Stick a fork in it we're done here!
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    This thread started to address the "motor list" and or lack of availability. If you just select a handful of motors you will be at the mercy of manufactures and eventually wind up right back here with unavailable motors. Opening it up with a 36X60 limit that has 20+ motors takes care of that. It also sets limits that RTR manufacturers may adhere to sell products. A manufacturer easily puts a 36x74 motor to be faster than his competition. Back to wide open and not good for attracting new racers.

    Solutions like weight put a burden on race officials that as Ken said could be solved with just be a list of unapproved motors.
    Handout motors again puts a burden on race officials and adds cost, logistics and opens up arguments on reliability. It would be simpler to put a claiming rule in. You win and anyone in the race can buy your motor for say $125. No one will use an expensive motor or risk a cheap one they rewound or had custom made and have to sell it for a predetermined price. Might also encourage manufacturers to build for a price point.
    If 3660 was implemented tomorrow the sky wouldn't fall. That's also what a trial period is for. MMEU has done well with 36X62 and just banning the 1415 would keep the peace.
    P.S. Darrin is correct and his tunnel record a real achievement. When my son set the IC 45 tunnel record I had more motor in the box. But not enough boat,
    Mic

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    Super sport mono is growing?..................has rules.

    The most popular FE power level in both NAMBA and IMPBA over the past 15 years...........no IMPBA rules.

    Got it. Nets us nothing. I guess it makes sense if ya don't think about it......at all.

    Yes stick a fork in it. Same reality. Same end point. Clubs writing their own rule sets.
    Noisy person

  30. #90
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    90

    Default

    Here is some information. I have three raider motors and they all Measure over 60 mm when Steve brought these motors out I thought they would be the hot set up. Very disappointing

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