Terry u still need to sell me on the weight thing.. I just don’t see why it’s necessary..I see both sides.. but nothing has been proven to me why it should be added..if the size is right why have to pull and weigh?? To many variances on what are the rules for the weight... wire length.. plugs on or off... I’m not 100% against it.. just trying to figure out the thinking behind it
36X60 would surely open up the current list and should eliminate the need for a weight limitation. My question is will there be any grace on dimensions? 36.00-60.00 exactly or a small percentage say 1/4-1/2% for manufacturing tolerances or calibration discrepancy?
1/2% - 60 X 1.005 is 60.30. 36 X 1.005 is 36.18 (1/4% would be 36.09 X 60.15mm) Hope this doesn't create to much discussion.
Mic
Mic Halbrehder
IMPBA 8656
NAMBA 1414
Consider this Ray..... New motor comes along with a rotor made with some unobtainum core. Same size but more power because it's simply more dense. Retooling the fleet.......ugh....again? Keeping someone from coming up with something nutty is the only reason for the weight limit. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Doubt it.
We've been through the HOW to do the weight thing already. Bare motor with no connectors under 265. Build accordingly. A motor is not it's connectors, or the jacket, or the coupler.
All THAT said..........lose the weight aspect and it does become crazy easy to tech forever and ever amen. I have a gauge I keep in my toolbox to check.
The truth of the matter on the motors........we've had the loosey goosey rules for nearly a decade. Despite the rule being very nearly un-techable we didn't see or hear of guys trying to skirt the rules too bad. There was modifying the shrink wrap on the gold motors and that a was about it. Did that myself till asked not to by Dave. I also water cooled the wires. That worked sorta.
So is someone going to spend a lot of time finding a rotor of high density frankincense and myrrh? Proly not.
Tolerances is how we ended up at 62. That's when guys went crazy with machined motors from the next size larger family of motors. We all need to just find a dim that makes sense and live with it. If it's 60.1 x 36.2 then so be it.
Noisy person
Curious, what motors fit in the 60mm limit that doesn’t fit in a 56.5mm limit AND is currently being raced on a regular basis?
Well, since no one else wants to answer Mike. Or maybe I'm the only one without a life on a Friday night
TP 3630 - Being raced in many boats. And a great option at $85.
OSE Raider 3660 - Not sure on how many being raced, but I'm sure some. And a great option at $75.
SSS 3660 - Comes stock in the TFL Pursuit, so probably is and/or will be in many. And a great option at $55.
Leopard 3660 - Not sure on how many being raced, but I'm sure some. And a great option at $53.
And at 60mm there is some room to play for future motors in RTR boats. That way you all don't have people spending $400+ on a boat and then having to change out a motor in order to race.
Last edited by dethow; 11-16-2018 at 08:52 PM.
Have fun with that....
From the data that was collected, the TP motors ranged from 59mm in length down to 57.6mm in length. Another note: these motors are significantly heavier when compared to the standard ProBoat and AquaCraft motors.
Yes, this motor is a bit on the longer side of the motors currently being used. I've never personally used one, but I do recall others suggesting this motor wasn't quite as good as the others.
Got it, didn't realize this came in a RTR Pursuit. However, if the limit is set at 60mm MAX if they are slightly over they will be illegal.
I think it was found out very early in the process the Leopard's don't cut the mustard. I couldn't and wouldn't recommend one to a new boater with a good conscious.
So they are going from 62mm to 60mm. Does that REALLY get the class into a safe place? Just trying to understand how 60mm was established and what criteria was used to determine it to be THE dim.
I REALLY want try and stay out of this, but I can't resist answering your questions.
1.) Does 60mm REALLY get the class into a safe place? Unknown.
That will be a matter of opinion which voters will decide.
2.) How was 60mm established and what criteria was used to determine it?
I'd assume the years of discussions that have been taking place. I think it was deemed 62mm was too much based on easy modification of larger motors to fit but yet this still allows the widest range possibles for current and future motors with the least amount of possible Frankenstein motors affecting parity. The weight limit is the other safe guard against Frankenstein motors.
Mike, at the end of the day there is no silver bullet in this discussion. There are probably many good points to what you will obviously be lobbing for which is a 56.5mm limit. Why don't you plead your case on why you think it should be limited to 56.5mm instead of 60mm and then let the NAMBA voters make there choice.
Your never ending desire to find the silver bullet answer doesn't seem to exist since no one including yourself has figured that out over this many year process of discussions. These questions have been asked and asked. Time to let it all go and let progress pursue.
I think what you (as IMPBA FE director) need to consider is that motors in the 60mm area are not out performing the ones under 56.5mm. So why not include them so that there is less chance of having to revisit this down the road and less chance that RTR purchasers will have to change out motors in order to race?
But that's just my 2 cents as I've been closely involved in most of the motor discussions over the past few years. I do think it'd be great to hear from Ray and maybe even Newland with answers to their process and if they maybe agree with you and don't really see a big enough reason to push to 60mm and maybe 56.5mm is enough.
I do see where this is going thou... and I see your point. There are 2 choices here (probably in your point of view):
1.) Go with 37mm x 60mm with a 265grams weight limit to protect against a Frankenstein motor that would affect parity.
2.) Go with 36.5mm x 56.5mm with NO weight limit which will basically eliminate any chance of a Frankenstein motor that would affect parity.
I'm again REALLY going to try and back out of this discussion. Sorry for getting involved at all. Did my best to stay non confrontational and I look forward to all this stuff getting voted on so the questions and discussions can end.
Have fun with that....
Mr Ball
Testing has been done and I don’t remember where the big list of motors that fit the criteria is in these forums.. the reasoning for the 60 mm is to keep the higher power neu 1415s out of the equation.. and also to not limit to too few motors..talking with a lot of people here on NMba side this is a consensus of what we have come up with.. and on December 9th we will vote on it here in district 19..with the assumption that it passes it will be forwarded to the BOD to approve at the national level..Is it going to be perfect?? Who knows yet.. but we all know the 62mm was too long.. as for the weight idea being talked about.. most we have talked to agree that for ease of tech to just go with simple size..something has to be done on the Namba side as we are basically down to one motor now..I’m Not saying this is the perfect answer but we are moving forward..it would be great to have both organizations have the same rule set for limited.. heck even all fe classes.. maybe that would help more people travel to different races..sorry for rambling.. hope this explains a little..
Smh...
MODEL BOAT RACER
IMPBA President
District 13 Director 2011- present
IMPBA National Records Director 2009-2019
IMPBA 19887L CD
NAMBA 1169
A while back I did a test with a 29" Mean Machine cat. Hitec radio with GPS and Castle ESC for data logging. Older AQ (good ones) 1800 & 2030, SSS3660-2070, TP 3660-2200,Leopard 3660-X2 2340. leopard 3660-2050. Same Batteries and prop. Maybe 2 MPH difference and watts also similar. The Leo X2-2340 fastest but that's higher KV with the same prop. Just an FYI yes I have seen some Leopard failures with 40mm motors. My LEO 3660's at $53 are in my spec mono and cat plus my grandson's spec boats. No problems yet and going to the races. The 2340 LEO runs very well in a Kep's rigger spinning a cut 1450.
Looking back at Darrin Jordans testing with 36mm motors it appears they are all similar. Some better but marginal. Trimming the hull and right prop will be the challenge as it should be.
Mic
Mic Halbrehder
IMPBA 8656
NAMBA 1414
Nothing personal Ray. That's all I can muster now without offending anyone. It's all been said. Hopefully they won't count the votes in Fla., Az., or Ga. LOL
MODEL BOAT RACER
IMPBA President
District 13 Director 2011- present
IMPBA National Records Director 2009-2019
IMPBA 19887L CD
NAMBA 1169
You went to 60 to eliminate the 1415 and eliminated the Turnigy in the process. Some guys were digging that one. Cheap fun.
You could have dumped the 1415 with a 260 gram limit. Or there abouts.
What club has been running the 60mm limit? I'm not saying its wrong by the way. You mentioned "been tested". The only club besides MMEU I'm sure has an official rule set for ignoring the list is Puget Sound. I never read their club version. Did they go 60?
Noisy person
I didn’t get to circle back to this subject over the weekend. Please see the attachment. There are 60 motors plotted on this chart. One red line limit is 56.5mm the other red line limit is 60mm. Simply look what falls in-between. The ProBoat data (orange circle) is slightly skewed due to the fact that bearing protrusion was included in the measurement to capture a worst case scenario. I am relatively confident that if those motors were remeasured they would fall at/or under the 56.5mm limit. And for the record, I am not campaigning that 56.5mm needs to be the limit. I simply started there because that’s where we started way back in the day. Our need to go faster, and continue to push the limits of the power system forced us to look bigger, longer, better (motor the fuse mentality).
What does the attachment show? It shows a several things
• The addition of the weight limit last summer was a stop gap solution to keep a particular motor out and curbed another level of pandora’s box being opened for this class (which worked).
• I would also say that weight isn’t necessarily a predictor of performance as the CORE brand/s of motors being used weigh less than their longer and heavier counterparts.
• Look at the sample size; The AquaCraft and Proboat motors is what the majority of racers are using…. still.... I know, I know, discontinued motors, Horizon purchased Tower yada yada yada. But at face value Tower still has 2030’s and 1800’s in stock. HiMax still has the 1500 on their website (same PN listed in the NAMBA rule book).
• It shows what adjusting the lower limit to 58mm allows the TP motors.
Here is my pitch…. Set the limits to whatever you feel is appropriate. Provide the membership enough information so when voting time comes they can make an INFORMED decision.
Haven't looked at the chart in a while. Thanks for posing it again Mike.
60mm sure picks up a lot of motors. Raiders, all the Proboats. I think 60.2 would pick up the Turnigy but I don't have my heart set on that.
Currently there are only a handful that are over 265g. Does a 60mm limit achieve what we were trying to dodge with the 265g limit? I know that weight limit squeezes out a couple TP motors.
Noisy person
We’ve had a few running the Turnigy and they have all burnt up one or more of them.. again this is my opinion on the size.. it leaves the door open for a bunch of motors..which can been seen 2 ways.. as for the 265 weight limit.. I’ve shown u guts my pics of the 1415 cut down that is 259 grams before I cut the shaft..I’m hoping things go well as the namba list is pretty much obsolete at this point..mike ball I haven’t heard back from you yet.. I responded to ur pm.. anyways guys.. off to skies.. hope everyone has a great day
Ray, you got it down to 265. Was it still over 60mm?
Noisy person
Attachment 162655Attachment 162655
Here ya go terry.. with wires cut and shaft cut it’s now at 247
This is at 61.5mm. No way could u get this down to 60mm
Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
"Self-proclaimed skill-less leader in the hobby."
Guys, like it or not the ONLY fair way to normalize motor performance is to list just one or two legal motors. Nothing we do will make everyone happy, it has to be a limited compromise. This is just like the old ROAR motor classes, impossible to make it “fair” for all. Limited classes suck if you desire true “fairness”, it’s always been that way, always will be.
.
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I'm okay with a limitation versus an IROC kind of thing.
Equality isn't really possible unless one guy builds all the bosts, sets them up the same, same battery, same prop with the same exact prep work.
Sure sounds like 36.2 x 60 is pretty good. Not hearing a ton of whining on my end. 36.something.
Noisy person
Hey Ray,
Personally, I don't have any further topics to discuss at this point. I only wanted to make sure you comments elsewhere with regards to the IMPBA and P-Limited wasn't misleading others. Secondly, there really isn't a need to have a discussion about NAMBA and IMPBA working to commonize on P-Limited because NAMBA is already moving forward with a proposal. Several months ago Brian and I had a few short phone conversations, but this most recent proposal was never brought up. It seems to me the #1 priority of this proposal is the shear quantity of motors it allows. If that is the objective, and your previous comment about the 60mm limit allows 20-30 motors, it seems you've succeeded.
Later,
Ball
Come on Darin. This is a kid friendly forum. I've never seen them in carbon. When did they start that?
Some things I didn't think of before. Imagine you actually did have to tech one for a protest.
Guy standing there with a a motor in hand and it's over a tic but still has the connectors. "Yer over" He then clips off the connectors with side cutters. Taking with them the solder and a blip of wire in the cup. Now he's under. Oh but he was supposed to de-solder not cut. Is he legal? Then what if he did de-solder but didn't flick the solder off the ends. "Go back and flick the solder" Ugh......Do you write the procedure to wick solder into the book?
You guys may have convinced me on the weight thing here.
Noisy person
I find it odd that, in EVERY OTHER CLASS in NAMBA, where motors are WIDE OPEN and people can spend as much or as little as they want, nobody is complaining about the balance of competition, or that there are TOO many motors available. And, people are TRUSTED to be able to decide for themselves what motor they want to run. Some go WAY overkill (Terry?? Ken?? Mike?? ) and others go with the "enough" power method (did you know I set the RC Boating's FASTEST EVER 2-Laps for ANY OPC Tunnel ANYWHERE using 4S1P and a mere 3640-sized TP motor? In other words... JUST enough power... )... BUT, we are all able to decide for ourselves in these classes.
Here, for P-LTD, the members involved in the Proposal, who are working to actually SAVE this class and keep it viable in light of the FACT that motor supply is truly drying up, are trying to put a cap on just how much power you can employ, and have come up with a REAL limitation, and for some reason, the racers suddenly can't be trusted to make their own motor choices within those parameters. Somehow, for some unique reason experienced ONLY in P-LTD, the "balance of competition" is somehow going to be disrupted if there is more than one or two motors to choose from?? Really?? Not the case in ANY OTHER CLASS, where things are WIDE OPEN, but here, with a REAL limitation, the sky will fall??
Just can't wrap my mind around that odd dichotomy.
Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
"Self-proclaimed skill-less leader in the hobby."
Holy crap!! All kidding aside..I couldn’t have explained it better..that being said I have been being bombarded with people who just can’t seem to understand the size thing and or want a bigger size.. which we have tried..even some saying well what if it’s cold and my motor fits but when it’s warm outside it doesn’t..I get people will always push the limits.. that’s a given.. but a simple go no go measurement.. if it fits it’s legal.. if not it’s not... also on the namba side if a club decides to run a different size that is their right.. have at it!! That’s how we can keep growing.. this is for a national rule.. which by the way is just bragging rights as terry says and trophies..I truly hope the 2 organizations can come close to being on the same page. And maybe people will race more or travel to some races more..that being said.. winter warmups in beautiful Arizona in February!! Sorry had to
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