NAMBA P-LIMITED Motor List - Pro Boat Motors NO LONGER AVAILABLE

[Doug Smock]

Super sport mono is growing?..................has rules.

Yep, can't buy them at the hobby shop, one legal engine, tech procedure a page long, going gang busters.

I'm confident it will all work out. The sharpest minds in FE are working on it.

See you at the pond fellas.

[T.S.Davis]

Hahaha. Yer the king Doug. That's like saying we're pounding nails with the sharpest stone we could find.

[longballlumber]

The sharpest minds in FE are working on it.

I will probably get accused of taking too much credit by assuming I was included in this group! LOL.

[dethow]

IMPBA's resistance to limited as it was made perfect sense to me. There were so many holes in what we were doing. It's a broken rule set. Was from the start. We were too ignorant to see it. Some of us at least (I count myself among them). The debate over the flaws was endless and heated. The BOD wanted nothing to do with that nonsense. Who could blame them?

IMPBA 8th Scale has the exact same issues/holes. A list of allowed motors and no way to tech if they are what they’re supposed to be. But yet there are rules in the IMPBA book for 8th Scale. Understood thou that there’s not as many people racing them so probably less issues/controversy then “spec” classes.

There is your Nats. answer Mike. Build the cost into the entry fees for those classes. Shoot, maybe more guys will put on their big boy panties and build P & up class boats..
You know fellas we don't help those classes when a guy comes on here and says he wants to build a Q Sport and he's told "If you want to heat race you'd better build a P Limited Sport". So we're going to race this limited crap forever? Not me....I can pull a rope and have more high performance racing than I can stand! Just sayin...

Seems Doug really could care less about this class and continues to just drum up negativity on progress.

Mike out of the box RTR is where it's at. Stick a fork in it we're done here!

Super sport mono is growing?..................has rules.

The most popular FE power level in both NAMBA and IMPBA over the past 15 years...........no IMPBA rules.

Got it. Nets us nothing. I guess it makes sense if ya don't think about it......at all.

Yes stick a fork in it. Same reality. Same end point. Clubs writing their own rule sets.

Actually… because of no IMPBA rules, limited is the most popular class in NAMBA over the past 15 years. It’s only recently IMPBA has had some increase in FE racers which is because they allowed a FE Nats event to take place with no rules in the book for the most popular classes.

Per Matt Schofield, Mike Ball told him that “FE racers probably doubled when the Michigan side joined.” Which was in 2017. This means that the most popular FE power level in IMPBA over the past 15 years doesn’t mean much. Because IMPBA didn’t/doesn’t have much of an FE presence if 15 to 20 guys from Michigan “probably doubled” the amount of FE racers in IMPBA.
Why is that??? Probably because there are no limited/spec classes in the rules and those classes were never allowed at a Nats event before 2018 and be awarded a “National Champion” title. And I’m not taking about “Spring Nats” or “Fall Nats”. They are grandfather to be allowed to use "Nats" in the event name and are allowed to run off the books classes, but they still aren’t allowed to put “National Champion” on the trophies.
It’s in the rule book; Section E, Procedures.

And it is understood that FE racers in IMPBA may have also got bigger because they (MMEU) brought in several outside of Michigan guys to IMPBA due to the MI Cup event which became an IMPBA event starting in 2017.


And let it be known… I have NEVER had any issue with ANY possible rule set IMPBA would consider. I had some opinions on the matter, but I would have been happy with ANYTHING. It’s the complete lack of doing anything and then continuing to allow these classes to runs at Nats is where I drew the line in the sand that I will not ethically cross. A BODs and/or a small group of guys from one club should NOT be deciding the rules which determine National Champions. Even if most/all of the racers attending the event agree with the rules. That’s not how things are supposed to work. To me that is worse then what went on with 8th scale in NAMBA. Many hate the new rules but at least ALL of the membership voted on them.

And for those opinions I've been shunned and the winner of the Ed Hughey Sportsman Award won't even acknowledge I exist. God forbid I demand the rules be followed and do the best I can to make people understand why they are not. No one wants to hear it, but I wasn't and am still not wrong.
Just ask yourself... does NAMBA run classes at Nats which don't exist in the rule books and give the winners "National Champion" titles.
Obvious Answer... NO. They're here doing things like this proposal to get the rules changed so they can continue to run them at Nats and so the class doesn't die.

Hands clapping to NAMBA...
Good job guys. Keep up the good work.

[Doug Smock]

Hahaha. Yer the king Doug. That's like saying we're pounding nails with the sharpest stone we could find.

I will probably get accused of taking too much credit by assuming I was included in this group! LOL.

Happy Thanksgiving fellas!

[T.S.Davis]

And for those opinions I've been shunned and the winner of the Ed Hughey Sportsman Award won't even acknowledge I exist. God forbid I demand the rules be followed and do the best I can to make people understand why they are not. No one wants to hear it, but I wasn't and am still not wrong.
Just ask yourself... does NAMBA run classes at Nats which don't exist in the rule books and give the winners "National Champion" titles.
Obvious Answer... NO. They're here doing things like this proposal to get the rules changed so they can continue to run them at Nats and so the class doesn't die.

This will be one of those rare occasions that I respond to a Dave post.

Me not acknowledging your rants is a reflection of you and not of me Dave. If you check around......I'm a pretty good dude. I help people get into racing. Get them interested. Make people faster. I help people at races. Sometimes they're too timid to ask for help. I watch for those guys especially. Hell, I help people that are hosting races be successful at....... hosting races. You're pounding your keyboard and accusing everyone of some form of corruption or another. Being ignored by the most dedicated FE guy probably since Ed himself "should" give you pause. But nope. What ya told me was that I was like a cult leader and that the members of MMEU were sheep. Trying to remember. I believe it was....."None of the membership would dare oppose me on anything because they were afraid of me". Paraphrasing. So don't tell these readers you are being ignored because you want the rules followed. You're on ignore for being a jerk. I work pretty hard to be a useful tank engine. I wont be treated like I'm what's wrong with the hobby. Put me on ignore Dave. Please. For my sanity.

Last thing........how many FE NAMBA nationals have you hosted Dave? I've only CD'd 3 of them. Only one of them was the largest FE event in US history though. Did you know that high points was calculated differently for each of those? How about team points? Always been a team points award. It's not "in the book" but every NAMBA FE nat gave one out. How is it done? You don't know. So don't profess to have a single clue how NAMBA nats were done.

Width x length. Somebody pick something so we can not ever talk about it again.

[T.S.Davis]

Happy Thanksgiving fellas!

You too Doug. Think we actually are done here.

[Darin Jordan]

The sharpest minds in FE are working on it.:thumbup1

Pretty rude, Doug.

"Pour in Gas, Pull string"...

[Darin Jordan]

Mike,

Do you still have the compiled data for motor can LENGTHS that you were gathering?? Don't care about weights or diameters. Can you just post the list of lengths of all the motors you measured/gathered info on??

Just curious.

These are all I was able to gather back when I ran all those tests... The TFL SSS 3660 and the DYNM3910 (2000 KV BJ26 Motor... the older one) were what my original 61.2mm.

To Greg's Point above, a hard 60mm WILL exclude some otherwise very popular and viable choices. Leopard 3660, for example, is 60.071 on the one I measured.

Attachment 162671

[Doug Smock]

Pretty rude, Doug.

"Pour in Gas, Pull string"...

Darin, I meant that. LOL I am confident that the sky is not falling on organized toy boat racing..

[dethow]

Terry… Hey you can see me… I’ve called you a couple times offering to sit down and talk so we can work through the bad things BOTH of us said about each other. You don’t respond. Not very sportsman like.

But let me refresh your memory Terry.
From the “more limited motor discussion” thread:
You in post #303 “Doug, if someone is on your ignore list can they still see your posts?”
Me in post #305 “Is this in regards to me??? Have you put me on a ignore list Terry? Or am I misunderstanding?”
You in post #309 “What ever Dave. I'm not mincing word with you any more. You need professional help yer not getting. I'm finished being nice about it.”

That is what lead to our personal email exchange where I said those things about being a cult and everyone just follows you. Which by the way was actually said to me by a different member of MMEU when I tried confronting the 62mm motor length. MMEU was originally discussing 61mm and the core members of MMEU changed it to 62mm right before the vote and left no chance to discuss. I know because when I tried, I was verbally attacked by a member of MMEU who knew nothing of the logistics. He only knew that Terry said this is what we should do and thus he wanted to hear nothing else from anyone else.

So let’s get one thing straight Terry. You just said in post #96 of this thread “So don't tell these readers you are being ignored because you want the rules followed. You're on ignore for being a jerk.”
You had me on ignore before I said those things and was a “jerk” to you. So I guess I’d challenge that you DID put me on an ignore because I wanted the rules followed. AND... you were being a jerk first. LOL

And then in post #314 you had this to say publicly “Don't bother Dave. I'm adding you to my spam filter. You're not an active club member and never have anything positive to contribute to the club anyway. If the club wants rid of me they know how to do that.”
Fact was that I was an active member. More active then Mike Ball. And at the end of the 2016 race season I was one of 2 people who organized/collected and took care of the thank you gifts for you and Tom. I also stepped up and was handling the Nats donations/raffle and did the re-write of emails and letters before backing out of the event due to all of this. The only reason I wasn't racing with MMEU or the Nats was in protest to IMPBA and the path forward that was being described to me and supported by the MMEU leadership. Prior to all this, I was becoming ONE of the most active and positive members of the group outside of You and Tom. I did as much as I could considering I was located an hour away from the pond. Sorry, I wanted the rules followed. And lets not forget... I didn't have a problem with Nats at first. I thought the plan was to do the Nats and see how it goes so a proposal could proceed. But then when Doug, Mike and others started to make it be known that IMPBA would NEVER have limited/spec rules... I'd heard enough and wasn't willing to contribute towards that big picture.

So Terry you had already put me on yours ignore list prior to those things I said about you… privately. You putting me on an ignore list is part of the reason I was mad enough to say some of those things. But at the end of the day if you can’t take some private criticism on how the MMEU club operates then you have no place being in a leadership role. I believe in the first phone message I left you I even apologized for the harsh things I said and wanted to sit down face to face over a beer to work our $hit out. But the sportsman the leader you are you didn’t even acknowledge. Then I let a couple more months by and I called again to see if you were ready to talk. Chrickets….

And that was after I had an email exchange with Matt Schofield where he said “I believe we are on a path to make the P-Spec a class in the IMPBA rule book.” That was on August 28th of 2018 and I haven’t brought up a negative thing about the IMPBA BODs since. Because at least someone there was finally talking about some progress. Up to that point I was getting Doug, Mike, Chris and a few others trying to fight that no rules are necessary and the IMPBA would just keep doing Nats events that way with no rules in the book.
Yes… I kicked and screamed. And at the end of day that’s most likely the only reason IMPBA is even talking about a rule set. I think if it was up to Doug IMPBA would still never consider a limited/spec rule set. Thank God he isn’t king of IMPBA and those that want a rule set should stop listening to him. He’s nothing but negative on progress for this end of the hobby. But there I go being a jerk again… even thou Doug said this

There is your Nats. answer Mike. Build the cost into the entry fees for those classes. Shoot, maybe more guys will put on their big boy panties and build P & up class boats..
You know fellas we don't help those classes when a guy comes on here and says he wants to build a Q Sport and he's told "If you want to heat race you'd better build a P Limited Sport". So we're going to race this limited crap forever? Not me....I can pull a rope and have more high performance racing than I can stand! Just sayin...

Seems Doug would love to see limited/spec classes just die so he could just race his P & up class boats.
At least I’m fighting for the class… but Dougs’ the good guy… Right?!

[dethow]

Did you know that high points was calculated differently for each of those? How about team points? Always been a team points award. It's not "in the book" but every NAMBA FE nat gave one out. How is it done? You don't know. So don't profess to have a single clue how NAMBA nats were done.

I do know how that was done Terry. There are rules in the NAMBA book for High Points and Teams. See the rule book: Section # 6 Nationals, E. Awards, # 4 and # 5 on pages # 3 and # 4.

And if they weren’t in the book back when you CD’d those events…. Well at least NAMBA did the right thing, saw that people liked these awards and got rules in the books for them.

But even if that was the case that some high points and team awards were given out before they were in the book... That's a whole different thing then creating multiple classes and giving out National Championships for them without the entire membership voting on what the rules should be.

[Doby]

Hey Guys.... LOL

You won't be hearing from me on this.
No IMPBA, No NAMBA, and No MMEU.
I have no place to discuss this what so ever since I will no longer be racing with any organizations.

Just a friendly reminder

[photohoward1]

Well This thread got ruined fast. Exactly what we all thought. TOY BOATS Guys! Have a great Thanks Giving!

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, I meant that. LOL I am confident that the sky is not falling on organized toy boat racing..

Phew! I'm glad I didn't hit send on what I had originally typed then...

[dethow]

Just a friendly reminder

Thanks Doby... I'll back away.

But in my defense... as of right now I am still a member of both NAMBA and IMPBA. Just won't be renewing.
Well, I may renew NAMBA so that I can vote YES on progress and still support an organization which I have nothing bad to say about.

Just bummed I don't have a local NAMBA club to race with.

[Doug Smock]

Phew! I'm glad I didn't hit send on what I had originally typed then...

Me too, that's a long drive!!
And in the future, you've got the number. I always have time to exchange pleasantries!!

[mpschofield]

Yet again this topic gets dragged down the ugly path. It's pretty sad you can't even have a discussion on a forum without dragging all of the dirt into it. Its stupid and just makes anyone read this less interested in the hobby. For me I just hit the unfollow button . Anytime this thread comes up it should just be locked and deleted.

For the record I personally would like to see a P-Spec in the rule book but I also understand the other side of the discussion. I am also in no standing to force the issue. I am a beginner into this side of the hobby and have a ton to learn. I have asked many people on this forum for help and appreciate all of their tips and education on all topics regarding FE. I get both points. But it's also up to the membership to write a rule not the BOD.

Funny part is when a new guy brings a boat to a club you will find a class to let that guy run. Because that's what it's all about, getting people at the pond on the water racing. Doesnt matter what they are running. No one gets into model boating because of the classes offered. Majority of the local hobby shops dont know NAMBA or IMPBA they just want to sell a boat.

Stop and think how silly some of this discussion is. Like Darin said it's for one race. And you can say that about every other class offered in the IMPBA rule book. It matters for one race. Everyone else runs their local rules for district races. And guess what? People dont care! Dave stop bringing up the past. It's done it's over. Time to move on. There are great people in this hobby. No need to drag people through the mud. We need every person we can get.

Lastly, stay patient. Like Doug said the sky isnt falling in the model boat world.

Happy Thanksgiving all! I'm out!


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[dethow]

Dave stop bringing up the past. It's done it's over. Time to move on. There are great people in this hobby. No need to drag people through the mud. We need every person we can get.

Lastly, stay patient. Like Doug said the sky isnt falling in the model boat world.

Thanks Matt... good words of advice. Probably easier for people to move on when they're not the one who has been demonized, blocked, called a jerk and left with no place to race their toy boats. And that's because the leader of my local club won't talk to me and other members made it clear that they'll stand with whatever Terry says on the Subject.

So please pardon me if I’m showing a little more emotion on the Subject. I kicked and screamed because I wanted the rules followed. Yes… I did and this is my punishment.

All that a single sane person had to do was exactly what you did the first time we exchanged an email. Tell me “I believe we are on a path to make the P-Spec a class in the IMPBA rule book.” All my kicking and screaming would have been done a long time ago. But instead we are where we are because a certain small group decided they know what best for the class and there was no need for rules in the book or a full membership vote. And that's what they stuck with for 6 months with me kicking and screaming the whole time. Then you came alone. The voice of reason.

You have a great Thanksgiving as well.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Let's get this back on track. It started off as motors not being available. Let's get it back their and stop the back and forth finger pointing. Take it to a phone call or private message. Going over the same things, time and time again, makes us all look FOOLISH.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING.

[dethow]

Width x length. Somebody pick something so we can not ever talk about it again.

[Doug Smock]

Curious, what motors fit in the 60mm limit that doesn’t fit in a 56.5mm limit AND is currently being raced on a regular basis?

???

This question for guys that are currently racing...

[longballlumber]

Mike,

Do you still have the compiled data for motor can LENGTHS that you were gathering?? Don't care about weights or diameters. Can you just post the list of lengths of all the motors you measured/gathered info on??

Just curious.

These are all I was able to gather back when I ran all those tests... The TFL SSS 3660 and the DYNM3910 (2000 KV BJ26 Motor... the older one) were what my original 61.2mm.

To Greg's Point above, a hard 60mm WILL exclude some otherwise very popular and viable choices. Leopard 3660, for example, is 60.071 on the one I measured.

Attachment 162671

Sent via email. It was posted on page 2 of this thread, but is gone now. Even the attachment in your post above seems to be corrupt. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...752#post728752

[HTVboats]

Just a thought for 36X60. 36.99 legal 37.00 out, 60.99 legal 37.00 out. Simpler than calling it hard 37X61 and allows all those odd numbers like 36.2 or 60.071 if it drops through a 37 by 61mm inspection template your good. easy to inspect and enforce.
Mic

[Bp9145]

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to everyone and your families. . .let's leave this alone today and enjoy this special day to give thanks . .:)

[Greg Schweers]

I have a question does anyone have a 1415 in a 60.00 can. If you have one I would like to see a close up picture of the end bell

[dethow]

I have a question does anyone have a 1415 in a 60.00 can. If you have one I would like to see a close up picture of the end bell

Greg, I'm pretty sure that would NOT be possible. I think Ray even had an opinion to that effect earlier in this thread.
My 1415s measured 61.5mm. I could see maybe getting them down to 61mm or 60.99mm, but I can't believe 60mm or under would be possible.
I believe this is where the 60mm limit came from. A tool to cut the 1415s out without using a weight limit.

And BTW... this shouldn't just be about the Neu 1415s. This needs to get rid of the possibility of any standard 68mm to 74mm motor being reduced down to a smaller can size. Most of those larger motors have extra room in there just like the standard 1415 which leaves some play to cut the can down. Some examples of other motors we don't want used: Lehner1940, TP3635, and any shown as 3674 that MAY have enough room to be cut down.

Within MMEU, the 62.0mm max length came from the desire to allow the Lehner 1930 WITH fan in the mix. That motor measures exactly 62mm. That same motor WITHOUT the fan is 54.0mm. MMEU was actually going to go with 61mm max but at the last minute this change was made before the vote. I personally had issue with this and tried to speak against it. And in all actuality, if we had just gone with 61.0mm those 1415 motors probably never would have been made and we would probably already have had good proposals and rules voted on in both NAMBA and IMPBA. The extra 1mm made the 1415 look possible. I personally wouldn’t have even tried if the limit was 61mm. I asked Neu to get them to 62mm max as that looked barley possible. To my surprise they where able to get them to 61.5mm.

But with all that said… I support the 60mm limit. That makes PRETTY sure nothing like a Neu 1415 or Lehner 1940 get in the mix. And I also support the 56.5mm idea of Mikes. Maybe even take it out to 57.0mm just to round up and leave a little tolerance. That would make for SURE those motors could never be used and it’s still leave plenty of options. More than we have now.

And BTW... I've heard through the grape vine that some have been saying I'm being a jerk about all this stuff because I'm sore (butt-hurt) about my expensive 1415s being cut out. NOT TRUE.
I BLEW THE WHISTLE ON THE 1415s. And even when I did, a few said they'd be no big deal. I kept persistent until a more trusted voice on the matter spoke up and said they would be a problem. So I'm not mad that my 1415 motors were banned. I was the loudest voice called for them to be banned.

So those out there saying I'm just mad because my expensive motors were banned... JUST STOP... It's not true. And Ken Haines can attest to this as it was a conversation with him which convinced me that the right thing to do was to make sure everyone knew these motors were possible and we had to get them out of the class. And that wasn't Ken convincing me to do it. I told him my opinion that these motors shouldn't be allowed and asked if he thought I was right and should sound the alarm. He agreed and that’s what I did.

I got mad when IMPBA pulled the 62mm proposal that was on their desk and then followed up saying that NOW they'd NEVER allow ANY rule set for a spec class in the rule book. Remember... a member of IMPBA has to write and make a proposal, but that gets nowhere if the BODs don't agree with it and never let it go to a vote. That's why we're all kinda wondering around waiting for an answer from the BODs on what they may find acceptable and THEN a member would be able to write a proposal without it just being a complete waste of time. It has taken my 6+ months of kicking and screaming to get the BODs to move off that stance and now again at least consider a spec rule set.

So those that want to demonize me and view me as the bad guy... If not for me we'd probably have limited/spec rules and the Neu 1415s, Lehner 1940s and TP3635s would have ruined the class. And beyond that we'd have no future rules being considered by IMPBA and we'd have different spec motor rules being decided by a host club only at each years FE Nationals. If you were against what happened with 8th Scale in NAMBA, you should be with me and against that worse scenario happening in IMPBA.

[properchopper]

FWIW NAMBA D19 will, on Dec 8 vote to ratify this P-Ltd rule for THE DISTRICT to start 2019 season:

moto2.jpg

[Steven Vaccaro]

FWIW NAMBA D19 will, on Dec 8 vote to ratify this P-Ltd rule for THE DISTRICT to start 2019 season:

moto2.jpg

GREAT.

I cant tell you how many regular people are confused about this.

[properchopper]

GREAT.

I cant tell you how many regular people are confused about this.

I agree that on one hand it simplifies sourcing a motor - plenty of acceptable choices to begin with BUT it opens the door to some interesting possibilities for the more "experimentally inclined"

moto3.jpg