Dynamite 3835 1500Kv

[Doug Smock]

I took a stator to the pond a couple weekends ago and showed Smock how it's done. About 2 minutes in, he was giving me that glazed over look. I could hear his brain saying please, PLEASE, just shut up and drive a boat!

You're such a tool!

It's not that I didn't understand, or wasn't interested Amp Daddy. It's that anyone that isn't from LaGrange Ga.could have said it in a fraction of the time.

Guys you just need to know Don and I have a hate / hate relationship, lol ,but we do have fun in common.

Keep it up buddy and I promise it's going to be a loooooooong ride to Michigan.

[donhuff]

Finally getting back to post those pictures and try to explain.

DSC_5784.jpg


It will help you to see if you make the picture full screen.

On the left is a Delta wind, and on the right a Wye. Note the little black thing at the 12:00 position on the Y one. This is a short piece of heat shrink that they put on the "Y" connection (I'm gonna refer to this a lot later so let's just call it the Y).

This Y conn, is where all three of the motor leads come together at the other end of the leads, after going through all the stator slots (slots are the holes between the "stator teeth").

Of course the leads follow a certain pattern depending on whether the stator is wound as a Y, or as a D. Sometimes this pattern is the same for the two types, then sometimes is is different. It depends on how many slots and poles the particular motor has. But then the half wind, ie 3.5D, is totally different,,,,,kinda!

So to wind the Y type, I make up my leads and then solder three of the ends together, to make up sort of a harness. Then I can start the actual winding process. When finished with the winding, the Y is then covered with the heat shrink so it wont short to the case or other wires, and bent over and pressed down when compressing the winding. This is usually necessary to be able to get the wound stator back into the case, and still have room for the end bells to go back in. Some of you have seen one of my motors where I just poke the Y out through one of the cooling holes. It's a lot easier to do it that way cause there isn't mush room in there if you added much more wire that the motor came with, and it makes people ask questions. The AquaCraft is like this. It comes with very little wire in it, and depending on if ya got a good one or a bad one, it may have even less wire in it.

[donhuff]

I'll make several post cause I have a tendency to hit the wrong button and loose everything. That really pizzes me off.




DSC_5785.jpg

In this one you can see that I took the heat shrink off and pulled the Y out for you to see. And BTW, this IS a Dynamite 1500.

You can see how the three legs are brought together and soldered. And the three leads sticking up are the ones that you connect to the ESC.

You can also see how the windings have been pressed flat a little, because the 1500 has a longer rotor/stator than the AQ does, and they are running out of room. Oddly though, they both have the exact same wire size and count, and both are "terminated" as a Y. Hummmmmm??? But they have different KV right? yeah 500kv difference . Actually every AQ I have tested comes in at 1900 to 1950, and the Dynamite is usually 1500 to 1600. It's never dead on as there are to many variables that have an effect on that number. I'll tell you more reasons, if anyone asks to hear it.

But now look at the picture again and notice the space left over in the stator slots. This is where you can "Optimize" the basic motor, by filling in that empty space with copper. This will strengthen the motor in a couple of ways. First by increasing the magnetic field in the "coils" that are made when you go around the stator teeth. The 1500 doesn't have as much room left over as the AQ does because the slots are smaller. And they are smaller cause the rotor is bigger in diameter. This is why the AQ responds so well to a rewind. But there are other things holding it back too.

[donhuff]

This pic shows a D on the left and Y on the right with all the wire out where you can see it. I left the little bit of soldered leads on there so you could see how the "terminate" side by side.

DSC_5786.jpg

Real easy to see how the delta has all the starts of the wires, and all the ends of the wires, connected together in some sort of a pattern. And to make more sense of it let me explain which is what.

Starting from the left side lets say the this is the "start" ends of the wire. It really doesn't matter as they start and end at the same place in a way, but you have to keep track of which is what so you tie the right ones together. This wind is simple in that respect as all three starting on the left are starts, and the other three are their ends, and they stay lined up in order. Then when finished winding, you take any two that are side by side and tie them together. Really any two, even the two opposite ends can connect, and the others side by side connect. I have unwound one motor that was done that way, must have been wound on a Monday???

another shot of the same thing but from the side.

DSC_5788.jpg

Note in this one how the Y wires go, in, skip a tooth, in, then out, in, out, skip a tooth, out.................confusing isn't it?
DSC_5789.jpg


Now the Delta goes , in,in,in,out,out,out. much simpler
DSC_5790.jpg

[donhuff]

Here's a look at the other end of the stator, the PTO end. Not much going on with this end. But it shows you how the 1500 on the right is compressed flat a little. And the delta on the left not so much. There just isn't enough wire in this particular delta to need extra room from compressing the wire.
DSC_5791.jpg

If you noticed, there are not many wires in it's bundles or "turns" either. I think there were only 10 strands of .017" and this is because each bundle, has to go through it's slots, three times, and that's all the wire that will fit in there. This is because it is a 2.5 delta and that's how . If it were a 2 D, then the wire would look exactly like the 1500's wires, only it would have the delta termination. One start and one end would exit the can wrapped together. This is why on some deltas the lead wire are BIG.


For instance, on the AQ motor. I can put 26 strands of .0155" wire in a bundle. And this motor has a 2 Y wind. This means it has 2 turns (like the car guys like to say it).

So the bundle goes through each slot in it's pattern twice. So I can fit 52 strands through a slot. 52 wires are in each lead wire also. BUT if I were to wire it as a 2 delta, and you can do that, then you have the same 26 in each bundle, and 52 through each slot, but then you wrap and solder the ends together so now your lead wires are twice as big at 52 strands each. But when you do this you had better not be holding it when you run it for the first time cause it's gonna BLOW! Cause deltas rev higher, for the same amount of turns, that Ys do. Take the AQ kv of 2030 and multiply that by 1.73 and you have your new kv. Wow 3511 kv times a 4s packs 16 volts and your revving it up to 56,190 rpm. The AQ wont take that, and will usually sling a magnet off the rotor somewhere in the low to mid 40,000 range, at least mine did! And I was holding it. Scared the bageezers out of me too!

[TRUCKPULL]

Rafael

Are you reading this?

Larry

[fweasel]

This is amazing info Don! Thanks for taking the time to type it up. I'm reading though it for a second time already.

[donhuff]

If ya'll have any questions about any of this, please ask. I enjoy sharing info. And if anyone sees something wrong with any of it, please tell me so I can correct my thinking. But I got to tell you that, If I think I'm right, your gonna have a hard time convincing me differently.

I know a couple time I skipped around a bit, but some things need a little background info before they make sense. But usually by the time I get the background info finished, I forgot what I was talking about to begin with.


But now you see what Doug was talking about, me dragging it out in detail. And I talk slow even by Southern standards. If we had been face to face and me telling you this, you'd still be waiting for me to finish!

[30nitro]

Your info is just great...!!! I do have a question though.....I have an AQ 36 mm blue anodized 1500....1800...?? Real coggy motor....not sure which it is.....and really can't tell what wind it is..?? Any thoughts on that....Thank you sir.

[ray schrauwen]

Very cool.

Since one motor has a shorter stack and they didn't compress the windings, would it not heat up more and faster? I've heard that any windings in open air create lots of heat.

[ray schrauwen]

Your info is just great...!!! I do have a question though.....I have an AQ 36 mm blue anodized 1500....1800...?? Real coggy motor....not sure which it is.....and really can't tell what wind it is..?? Any thoughts on that....Thank you sir.

Sounds like an original 1500kv motor from a Super Vee. I could be wrong on KV...

[30nitro]

ray......That's what i kinda thought.....but still not sure which....and what wind and timing...

[TheShaughnessy]

thank you for writing it up Don. What causes the discrepancy in actual kv for two motors rated at the same kv? Same wind, same wire thickness , what gives ?

[donhuff]

30nitro,

I have no idea. The only AQ motor I am familier with is the gold one. I have not been in FE but for about 3-4 years, so I know nothing about the older stuff

[Darin Jordan]

This thread proves my point that the P-LTD rules are a mess, and need to be replaced with simple physical dimension rule.

Will keep you people from over-thinking all this all the time... or maybe not...

I can't imagine how I've had the success I have, having never once adjusted my timing or torn apart one of these motors. Seems like a LOT of time spent on the WRONG end of the boat, when a $25.00 prop and some simple hand tools would benefit your performance exponentially by comparison.

[donhuff]

Ray,

From everything I have read, any wire not going through the slots, is really just waste. The end turns add nothing to the motor except weight, but they have to be there. Compressing them is necessary ONLY to get the wound stator back into the case. This is why on cheap motors like the AQ, that do not have a lot of wire and a lot of room inside the case, the winding is not compressed. The straighter the wire is inside the slots, and the shorter the end turns, the better.

Not compressing eliminates one step in the manufacturing process, so makes the motor cheaper to build. Plus not compressing eliminates the risk of causing a short because the wire is not mashed down on the stator and all it's sharp edges. Plus, it takes a good bit of special tooling to be able to compress, and not scratch or mess-up the wire. I'll spend almost a full day making the tooling, and it takes about 30 seconds to do the pressing.


Only when trying to get the most copper, into the smallest package, is there a need to compress.

Also, a Y wind usually takes up more room in the back end of a motor. Especially in a low turn wind like a 2Y. Reason being that Y connection can get pretty big, and takes up a lot of space. For instance in the AQ motor, there are 30 strands of .0105" wire in each of the three leads, and all three have to come together to make the Y, so there are 90 wires in that connection. It's tiny wire so even at 90, it doesn't look all that big.

So lets take a Neu 1515 1Y 2200 for example. They call it a 1Y but for the life of me I don't know why. The wire makes two passes through the slots, and to me that makes it a 2. This is the exact same wind that the AQ 2030 uses, and also what the dyna 1500 uses, and they are both called a 2????? Just more electronics confusion I guess.
But back to the point. The Neu 1515 2y has 40 strands in each leg, and the wire is pretty big at around .020 IIRC. So there are 120 strands in the Y connection, and it's BIG and has to be pressed down into the end turns on the rear of the motor. That takes up a lot of room. And that's why when comparing a Y with a D in the same motor brand and size. The Y will look "more full" than the delta looks. And the stator looks to be longer in the Y, it's not, it just has that big lump of wire on top of the end turns. And the Delta looks like they have some room left over inside that they did not fill.

Now lets wind that same 1515 motor, but make it a delta and all that wire in the Y is now brought out as the leads. And with a 2 delta, the leads would have 80 strands in each one and that would be huge, especially when compared to lets say a 6 Y. We know from the 2Y, that the slots will hold 80 strands of wire, remember it has two passes 40 per pass. So for the 6 Y, lets take that 80 and divide by 6 because this wind will have 6 passes (turns) of the bundle, through each slot. 80 divided by 6 is 13.333333, and you'll be really luck if you can get 13 through there. I'd try 12, it's always easy..... until the last pass, and then you find out that 13 won't fit! But if you leave out just one strand, it's actually 6 strands that won't be in the slot! So you want to keep as much as you can in the bundles, but it becomes a compromise between filling it up and how much frustration you can take, because the more wire you use, the winding process gets harder and harder. As you can see even just one strand makes a huge difference. But to sum it up, now our 6Y is finished and the lead wires look pathetic what with only 12 strands in each one. And compared to the 2y at 40 strands and the 2D at 80 strands, it looks like the 6Y got cheated out of a lot of wire. But actually on the inside, they all have very close to the same amount.

[donhuff]

"thank you for writing it up Don. What causes the discrepancy in actual kv for two motors rated at the same kv? Same wind, same wire thickness , what gives ?"


Tolerance differences, a draggy bearing, end turns that didn't get pulled down as tightly as another motor, magnets that are stronger or weaker, maybe the magnets didn't get snugged down to the rotors shaft as tightly and they are closer to the stators teeth making a tighter air gap. This will make the kv a little lower but also increase the torque a little. If a motor gets to hot, the magnets can loose some of their strength and their pull to the stator will be reduced. This will lower the torque and raise the kv.

It really works out to be pretty danged close to the same for a given motor brand and wind. Like with the AQ 2030, I have checked maybe 25 motors and they all run between 1900 and about 1970. With the most of them being 1930-1960


This is with ONE motor brand and size, if that's what you meant. If your talking about between different brands, but with basically the same specs, then that's a whole different story.

[donhuff]

Darin,

I agree that there needs to be a dimension rule, and I think it should be 36x56mm I think even going to a 60mm long can is to much. I keep hearing the phrase "there's only so much power that you can get out of a motor" BS, there's always more in there, it just has to be found and extracted.


Really? I'm "overthinking" it. I'm a motor guy, that's what I do. Doesn't matter what I'm racing or playing with, I always try to find out how it works and how I can improve it. I got into FE and Ltd and burned a motor or two. And then we went to the Michigan race and saw a lot of motors make smoke. I wanted to find out what was happening and see if I could rewind to be able to reuse an $80 motor and not just throw it in the trash, and also to see if the motor could be improved upon and not burn up so easily.

I have not heard anyone ask, how do I make more power? Lots of people are just curious and wonder WHY. I'm trying to find out some of the why and explain it to anyone else that is interested.


I'll just bet that your a pretty good driver and that's why you do well at racing. Hitting the start in the right position, Running in lane one, Staying out of trouble, slowing down when you need to, and finishing ALL your heats. This is the stuff that makes a winner. A motor won't do that for you.

As an example. In P mono I run a leopard 4074/2200. It's the very first FE motor that I bought. Doug wanted me to buy a Neu 1515, but I'm cheap and couldn't see spending that much on a motor for a blasted electric (I'm really a gas guy) when I'll probably get rid of all this FE crap shortly after buying it! Well, I still have it all.
But with that $60 Leopard, I have managed to do pretty good in the past few years. My first ever big race, the Atlanta Spring Nats 2015, I won first place, I have won P offshore in Michigan with it. This past year I won our Grand Prix Series P mono class with that same motor.

And the reason for the success is I am a decent driver and the boat is slow, much slower that the same boat with a neu motor, and because of that, I stay right side up more than the faster boats do! So yes, I blame the motor and it's LACK of power, for my success. BTW I'm working on a new motor for one of my sons P boats, and it cost only $42. But it's turning out to be to fast so I'll have to prop down, to keep it upright.

[ray schrauwen]

Lol, that's beautiful Don, thanks!

I don't feel so bad selling a 1521 now and replacing it with an SSS motor. I won 3rd place a few years back at Michigan in q mono with an SSS 5684 1200kv motor.

This Scorpion motor I've got is cherry, they stuffed 1.2mm wire in there making a 1y motor. Can't wait to try it out.

[donhuff]

Yeah, sometimes a really powerful motor just gets a poor driver into trouble FASTER LOL. But put that powerful motor in the hands of a good driver, that knows how to set the boat up to handle it, and now you have a real winner.

So you replaced a 40mm motor with a 56mm one? That aint motoring down Ray, even if the SSS is a "cheep Chinese" motor! You do know the Golden Rule for hot rodding don't you.

If not, here ya go---- "There is NO replacement, for Displacement"

I'd like to see inside of one of those scorpions, to see how they do that. From the pictures on the computer, they look to be Quality motors. If I use wire much bigger than about .017- .019 inch, it gets real hard to work with and very hard to get a good winding job out of it.

I want to try a 1 turn just to see if it would work. But with the way I understand and do 2 turns and up, it doesn't look like it would work cause the "turn" would never make a complete loop around the teeth. I know that probably doesn't make sense to anyone but later I'll try to draw out how the "winds/coils/fields" (whatever they are called) are formed and what they do. That is if anyone is interested.

[Fluid]

”There is NO replacement...for Displacement.”

Of course there is, and hotrodders have used it for decades. It’s called forced induction.


.

[donhuff]

Her are a few pictures of an AQ 2030 that I have put my "turbo" 2Y wind in.

As you can plainly see, the AQ is really low on wire size and count. I use .0155" wire compared to the stock .0105" stuff. I use less strands but with the larger diameter, that's all that will fit in the slots. This helps the torque a little by making the field stronger, but mainly it increases the efficiency a good bit. If you increase the efficiency only like 5% (which BTW is a big increase) this will increase the power by 20%, and that's a lot.

If you increase the wire gage size by 2 like going from 30 awg to 28 awg, you increase the ampacity (ability to handle amps) of the wire by about 50%.

But the big advantage is that it really helps the motor cope with the heat it produces. Now add good wire insulation like comes on good wire, and you have areal winner! The insulation that comes on all the Cheep motors is pure crap, and will melt with very little heat. Then you have massive shorts and a melt down...ie SMOKE!

Lots of info here https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...s-checks-tests


So here's the pictures for all us "overthinkers"

DSC_5793.jpgDSC_5794.jpgDSC_5795.jpg

easy to see the extra room inside and how I filled it up. You can also see why I had to press it down so as to be able to get the ends back on.

And that is a "good" AQ with a full set of 30 strands, you can imagine how empty it would be if you were luck enough to purchase one of the motors that they put only 21 strands of wire in. I have run up on a couple of those. They were burned up of course, probably happened on the first run.

[ray schrauwen]

I'll do some strand counting later. I keep all my golden calves that are now burnt offerings.

That's a hell of a winding job there!! Bravo.

Where do you buy good wire?

[donhuff]

[QUOTE=Fluid;714544]Of course there is, and hotrodders have used it for decades. It’s called forced induction.

I wondered if anyone would catch that. And yes you can make a lot of power with supercharging, but the motor will not be nearly as "flexible" as a bigger motor of equal power. But the improvements in electronics is beginning to make the boost a lot more manageable.

And let's not forget nitrous oxide and nitromethane, same principal. More oxygen in equals more power out. But still not as flexible/simple/reliable, as a plain ole big motor.

[donhuff]

Temco,

Good wire at reasonable prices, and fast shipping. You can go direct or get it off ebay

https://temcoindustrial.com/product-...election-guide

[ray schrauwen]

The re-wind you did looks like the Hobbyking SK motor windings.

How do you unscrew the front plate on the gold motors?

All my burnt 2030 gold cans are 21 wire winds, go figure...

[donhuff]

I forgot to say that if you do order wire, be sure to get the 200c rated. It can take a lot of heat and not have a problem.

At the last race I came in from a limited offshore race where I cut an offshore buoy ON THE FIRST LAP! and had to make an extra lap. I was pushing hard trying to catch up, and flipped on the third lap, but luckily landed right side up and finished. After the race, and all the high fives, and smack talk, someone asked when I cut my rudder water line..............OMG

I ran to the pits untaped and to my surprise, no smoke got the temp gage and was amazed to see 215*F. I was very happy about no smoke, but nervous that I had hurt the motor.

No worries, I won the next two heats with ease.

That's some damn good wire/insulation.

[Ken Haines]

Hey Don,
I really have nothing to add here, but certainly enjoy reading your interesting motor posts.
Appreciate all the great info, if I'm not careful I may learn something. Keep up this good stuff,
and see you next week in Atlanta :)
Thx,
Ken

[Doug Smock]

This thread proves my point that the P-LTD rules are a mess, and need to be replaced with simple physical dimension rule.

Will keep you people from over-thinking all this all the time... or maybe not...

I can't imagine how I've had the success I have, having never once adjusted my timing or torn apart one of these motors. Seems like a LOT of time spent on the WRONG end of the boat, when a $25.00 prop and some simple hand tools would benefit your performance exponentially by comparison.

This thread also proves why the "simple dimension rule" is flawed. It's not simple....
What happens when you "optimize" a motor that fits within the dimension rule (and the current weight that's been tossed around) then add the $25.00 prop and the simple hand tools?

Good work Don. I'll eventually move your motor info in it's own thread so it doesn't get lost.

[Steven Vaccaro]

WOW Don, there is a wealth of great info here. thanks for sharing.