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Thread: Namba Voting for Modification and Additions for Electric 1/8 Scale Unlimited Hydro"

  1. #61
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    NO I'm not I'm gonna blow *!***!***!***!** up every round
    We call ourselves the "Q"

  2. #62
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    Double post......
    Noisy person

  3. #63
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    They wanna go slower!!! this is not the way!!! the way we did it in our district BC we run nitro and electric together is no elecric boat was allowed to go over 52mph, checked by GPS with a 3 mph grace due to wind, water and gps inaccuracy and other factors. You can pick up GPS units for 25-30 bucks, throw them in the boat for each heat. Simple easy and cheap, and if your club cant afford 150-200 bucks then ur club sucks.
    We call ourselves the "Q"

  4. #64
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    Mike, you missed the boat. The time to throw a fit was before it was voted on. Yer screwed now.

    What other NAMBA FE event is there in NA that you attend anyway?. Kind of irrelevant at this point.
    Noisy person

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    Guys I'm pulling some discussion over here from International Waters
    The Thread is titled "ELECTRIC RULES" started by Lohring Miller....here it is:
    ================================================== ===========================

    As everyone knows electric motor input power in watts equals volts times amps. The similar relationship in piston engines is power equals cylinder pressure times displacement times rpm. Regulating the displacement in IC engines forced innovations that resulted in smaller engines with higher cylinder pressures operating at higher rpm to generate the same power. Think the 1956 Chrysler 300 versus today's Honda Civic type R both with around 300 hp. This pace was slow in both model and full size engines. However a 1950s model engine like the McCoy 60 produced around 1 hp while today's similar size, tuned pipe engines can produce over 4 hp.
    Today something is happening much more quickly in electric power. Think golf carts versus the Tesla model S. Lithium polymer batteries were a game changer. Their very low internal resistance allows much higher currents than previous battery types. Before this batteries were the limiting factor. By only regulating input voltage with lithium polymer batteries we encourage innovation in motors and speed controls. This innovation today allows close to 30 hp input power (600 amps times 37 volts) for short times like SAW runs. With 1200 mah packs 400 amps will still give a 1.8 minute run time, enough for a standard heat race. Commercially available speed controls can deliver over 300 amps when water cooled.
    One solution has been the P limited classes. By restricting the motor, it becomes the "fuse" limiting power. If you restrict the ESC choice, that limits power as well with the ESC as the "fuse". How expensive do you want this current limiting method to be? Motors are getting inexpensive. The fastest P limited racer in our club paid $27 for his motor. Competition airplanes use a more elegant solution involving electronic controls that limit input power. Simpler solutions that have been race tested involve limiting propeller diameter as well as motor KV and size.
    Another solution has been to limit hull length. I watched Brian Buaas set two lap records in several voltage classes with the same small sport hydro. It just got harder to drive at the higher power levels. T class boats can be 60" long, the NAMBA maximum. The most powerful IC engines in a twin configuration probably deliver around 10 to 15 hp. Do we really want to allow electric power plants with more than twice that? What are some other current limiting rule proposals?
    Lohring Miller
    PS: Engineering is done with numbers. Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

    ================================================== ================================================== ======================

    Reply By Ken Haines

    Lohring, here is the problem; those of us that race all over the country were not any part of this new scale rule.
    You can theorize all you want and that is definitely opinion, but up until recently our current rule set worked. Additionally this 1/8th scale unlimited Hydra class was gaining popularity at some of the larger races with the original rule set. I actually very recently bought some of this equipment that now is illegal in NAMBA. So instead of setting up a limited rule set or actually new limited version class for the Northwest region clubs someone decided to just set the class on its head. It would be on par with the P-Ltd rule set being put in place for all the regular P Classes, and all the current P-Mono’s, P-Cat’s and P-Hydro’s then being illegal. Now you can debate here with all this technical jargon but most of the avid active racers in the rest of the country are upset. According to the way the rules can get passed someone that races very minimally or regionally at the most could in theory get a rule passed that limits many other classes across the country. My guess is that the NAMBA fuel guys voted yes because they thought with info that they had heard this was a good thing. This is why when a rule change that is not for electric, I simply abstain as it is really none of my business. I would hope in the future our electric rule votes would be respected in the same way.

    On an older note weren’t you one of the crowd years ago arguing against hull limits and against 2p lipo set-ups. If I am wrong on that recollection I apologize, but that is what I seem to remember of the time that I visited your club at the 2007 Nat's. I believe we had a heated argument about that during my visit.....Kind of Ironic

    ================================================== ================================================== ==========================

    Reply by Mike Hughes
    Not all fuel guys vote for it. My son and I voted against. Not fair to limit the class that way. Now people with the 10S are illegal.

    Mike
    ================================================== ================================================== =====================

    Reply by Bill Brandt
    World Racer

    To propose a rule change, as I was told by our district director, a club has to run that rule for at least one year. RCU has been running this proposed rule for 3 years. My Texas friends reached out to me and together we proposed this change, although done through our District 8.
    Once again the Namba Nats in Las Vegas were very lightly supported by 1/8 FE, in part because of the existing poor rule. Most areas that run 1/8 Scale FE run 8S. They run motors and escs that were readily available and new racers didn’t have to go through a steep and often expensive learning curve to race.
    It appears that most dissenters of the rule change don’t themselves run the class. If they are advocates of 10S it’s usually because they’re from clubs that combine nitro and FE because they don’t have stand alone numbers.
    If there aren’t enough motor choices then look for other 850 kv motors that will work and propose them down the road.
    My customers across the US and in fact around the globe have applauded the change and the clarity it brings to 1/8 Scale FE
    ================================================== ================================================== ==================

    Ok....I threw the meat on the table please reply appropriately maybe over on IW.
    Thx, Ken Haines
    TenShock Brushless / Pro Marine
    NEU Motors / Rico Racing/ Castle Creations
    2023 NAMBA & 2018 IMPBA FE High Points "National Champion"

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    "The maximum mAh capacity of the battery pack(s) will not exceed 6000 mAh."

    So 6000 max on board during the race?
    Or would 2, 8S packs of 6000 mah each in parallel for 12000 mah be allowed?

    Ambiguity is a wonderfully confusing thing!

  7. #67
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    Oh and my 24 Castle Hydra controllers that don't have the stickers on them are illegal too, because they are not labeled?????
    HOLY CRAP!!! LOL
    We call ourselves the "Q"

  8. #68
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    Hey John thats great the way it's written you can run 2 8s 6000mah packs 12000mah!!!! Again like I said no one really thought it out, now they have to come up w another rule proposal next year to correct that!!!!! LMFAO!!!
    OH MY NERVES STOOOOPID!!!
    We call ourselves the "Q"

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmikepags View Post
    Hey John thats great the way it's written you can run 2 8s 6000mah packs 12000mah!!!! Again like I said no one really thought it out, now they have to come up w another rule proposal next year to correct that!!!!! LMFAO!!!
    OH MY NERVES STOOOOPID!!!
    Exactly..could put 24,000 mah in there and it would still be good to go.

  10. #70
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    Oh and another one!!! I have to find another battery manufacturer and lose my sponsorship because my batteries are all 70C. This thing keeps getting worso and worse. So to juist convert ONE of my scale boats to be legal I need a new motor, speedo and batts $700 bucks bare minimum!!! wow thats rteally saving me $$$
    STOOPID STOOPID STOOPID
    Wondering if you guys proposing this fell out of the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down.
    Bunch of selfish pricks!!!
    I bet you guys saw videos of mine and doug twaits boats run and got scared!!! or maybe ur just so stupid you couldn't get a 10s boat to run fast without flipping it. Or Maybe ur so dumb that you dont understand that higher voltage+Higher efficiency. OR maybe ur just a bunch of ignorant dumbasses!!!!
    We call ourselves the "Q"

  11. #71
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    you know what? next year I'm gonna buy a million dollars of giant power batteries, propose a rule that they are the only legal battery and I will give them away to every club that votes for my proposal. Who wouldn't vote for that!!! Oh BTW Giant power Batteries are all 70C so ur scale class will be illegal to run!!!! Just ask anyone who knows me I have the money and I will do it!!!!
    We call ourselves the "Q"

  12. #72
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    Lmao, that’s the mike I know..... on point!!

  13. #73
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    Hard to believe this passed. Seemed like trying to fix something that ain't broke. It was an easy no vote for me once I learned it would eliminate so many of the 1/8th boat setups on the water.
    Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to use it in a fruit salad.
    PB BlackJack 29 / AQ Motley Crew / Tenshock Mini ECO / Phil Thomas Stealth

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    Lots of votes from people with no dog in the hunt. It is what it is.
    Brian "Snowman" Buaas
    Team Castle Creations
    NAMBA FE Chairman

  15. #75
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    Mike, easy fix on the batteries. Go down to your local sign store. Have a label printed that says what ever C you want. There's no provision in the rule set to verify a cell is actually correct. They are relying on the label.
    Noisy person

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Mike, easy fix on the batteries. Go down to your local sign store. Have a label printed that says what ever C you want. There's no provision in the rule set to verify a cell is actually correct. They are relying on the label.
    Its sad that its come to this. I dont race that class, but it seems it worked well and didnt need changing.
    Steven Vaccaro

    Where Racing on a Budget is a Reality!

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Vaccaro View Post
    Its sad that its come to this. I dont race that class, but it seems it worked well and didnt need changing.
    But Steve, don't you know? New or Different is ALWAYS better!!

    This change was completely unnecessary and will reduce participation, not increase it. But, whatever.
    Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
    "Self-proclaimed skill-less leader in the hobby."

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    But Steve, don't you know? New or Different is ALWAYS better!!

    This change was completely unnecessary and will reduce participation, not increase it. But, whatever.
    I know all to well about change. After 59 years of the high school football game being on thanksgiving day, they polled a few people in town and changed it to the night before. YUK
    Steven Vaccaro

    Where Racing on a Budget is a Reality!

  19. #79
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    This appears to be just the beginning guys. Mr. Miller is looking to land on some additional limits for you. Everyone drove right past the IW link and the post Ken copied??
    MODEL BOAT RACER
    IMPBA President
    District 13 Director 2011- present
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  20. #80
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    I saw it Doug. We got off on the scale tangent.

    Lohring will likely get his way too. Peterson was right all along. A pocket of racers can dictate the rule set for everyone. These scale rules are a prime example.

    NAMBA just doesn't have a check point like IMPBA does. IMPBA has a group of elected officials that look at a proposal and try to determine it's overall impact before it goes out to the membership. Keeps lunatics like myself in check. Call em like I see em.
    Noisy person

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmikepags View Post
    you know what? next year I'm gonna buy a million dollars of giant power batteries, propose a rule that they are the only legal battery and I will give them away to every club that votes for my proposal. Who wouldn't vote for that!!! Oh BTW Giant power Batteries are all 70C so ur scale class will be illegal to run!!!! Just ask anyone who knows me I have the money and I will do it!!!!
    https://www.mojoracingproducts.com/p...nt=16351844739

  22. #82
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    The New Cells are all 70c that is the old label.
    We call ourselves the "Q"

  23. #83
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    And you don't think that if I spend a million dollars I can't get a 70, 80 240c label put on there??????
    We call ourselves the "Q"

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmikepags View Post
    The New Cells are all 70c that is the old label.
    You have proof that?

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    More International Waters Stuff....you really must view this link
    http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?...c=74695&page=2

    ================================================== =====
    [quote name="Bill Brandt" post="725701" timestamp="1526408876"]
    They do it with other sports.
    Ive tried to explain my reasoning. If you dont like the result. Feel free to vote for change
    I wish you all well. Im done on this thread.
    ================================================== =====

    Wow....Bill you help make illegal and now obsolete a couple thousand of my FE Equipment and much more from many others and now the heat gets turned up a bit and you bail on conversation about it. You or the group responsible for the new 1/8th scale rule set barely if ever even travels to a National event. So knowing that this would affect a bunch of national racers must have not been thought about or even bothered anyone. Like I stated previously limiting power to an existing class really should have been done in the spirit of the P-Ltd method....maybe should have been a new class called 1/8th Scale Ltd. and then the effects and this backlash would not be occurring. Certainly some off us will be putting something down on paper and decide what should be done next. But likely it will be talked about plenty and a good solution would be reached before proceeding, just like should have been done before submitting these Scale rule changes.

    As far as our NAMBA Safety Chairman (a Dentist by trade), please pull back on your current limit ideas. As you can tell by this thread you have really stirred the hornets nest and since it is not really a safety issue, just your vision of controlling the FE technology growth. I would urge you to reconsider your path. There are a core group of avid "Active" traveling racers that have a lot at stake here. Please let it go.
    Thx,
    Ken Haines
    President / Wave Blasters of Florida (FE Club)
    TenShock Brushless / Pro Marine
    NEU Motors / Rico Racing/ Castle Creations
    2023 NAMBA & 2018 IMPBA FE High Points "National Champion"

  26. #86
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    I think they did
    -Up to 10s or 12s
    -Get rid of the C rating (that always going to be changing with time)
    -Get rid of the prop rule
    -Come up with motor can size and max kv (motor mfg are coming and going)
    Would that make people across the country happy?

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric113 View Post
    I think they did
    -Up to 10s or 12s
    -Get rid of the C rating (that always going to be changing with time)
    -Get rid of the prop rule
    -Come up with motor can size and max kv (motor mfg are coming and going)
    Would that make people across the country happy?
    Not sure some of us want any limits. Really the proposal should have been as stated above in my previous post....
    a class called 1/8th Scale Limited ......Vs. Unlimited. Yes I understand Unlimited originally referred to the real Scale Boats,
    but just the same, limiting a version of the class that apparently prefers the realism by control of the top speed, while not
    affecting the other group with unlimited power that was actually growing recently in popularity. I myself just bought several with a bunch of other equipment.
    In all our other FE classes except the P-Ltd we pretty much had this hull size only power restraint. This is why a bunch of us are pretty upset.
    TenShock Brushless / Pro Marine
    NEU Motors / Rico Racing/ Castle Creations
    2023 NAMBA & 2018 IMPBA FE High Points "National Champion"

  28. #88
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    Yes I have proof, I am a sponsored giant power driver, and all the new cells i have all have the 70c label. Mr Zola who is the Giant power importer can chime in here.
    We call ourselves the "Q"

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    Quote Originally Posted by eric113 View Post
    You have proof that?
    I believe Bob drags in some of the old cells for the NW guys. There will come a time where he can't get them though. When the cells aren't available any more I guess they'll stop running the class.

    There ya go Mike. Just buy a bunch of labels from who ever printed the old labels. There is no requirement that they actually have to be 65c cells. They just need a label that says 65c. Nobody that actually wrote that rule has any idea how to prove that a cell is actually 65c. Heck, I don't and I've been doing this for eons.

    Anything that can't be verified on site through a technical inspection can't be a rule. This is the same way that we blew it when we proposed limited all those years ago. We were ignorant. As is this new rule set. Limited floated for a long time because we were ALL ignorant. Ignorance was bliss.

    Ken, we never had the numbers to make it work but if years ago we had gone with a "vintage" class on 8s and a "modern" class on 10s it might have made sense. Hind sight.

    I mentioned this somewhere else. The real hydros started off shovel nose, round nose, maybe a chisel on piston power. There were other types before but for most of RC that's what what we think of. Those early boats were only capable of running X mph. The boats evolved and the modern turbine boat runs 1.5X mph.....ish. When we try to emulate these real life boats with scale versions we make the power available to a modern boat equal to the power available to an old style shovel nose. We know the shovel was never designed for the speeds of a turbine. Otherwise they would still be racing them......only with turbines under the hood.
    Noisy person

  30. #90
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    Sounds like Dinogy and GiantPower need to build some NAMBA 1/8th scale spec batteries.
    Brian "Snowman" Buaas
    Team Castle Creations
    NAMBA FE Chairman

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