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Thread: Differences between high end ESC's and cheap ones for Lehner motors?

  1. #1
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    Default Differences between high end ESC's and cheap ones for Lehner motors?

    Hey guys,

    I keep reading about how high-end controllers like MGM and Schulze are "optimized" to work with Lehner motors (I'm assuming this is software wise) compared to the castle controllers and the cheap chinese ones.

    Can anyone elaborate a little more about this?

    Thinking about pulling the trigger on a set of MGM 28026-3's... Just wondering if it's over rated or if I should just stick to my supped up china controllers.

  2. #2
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    Schulze and Lehner go way back and likely work well together due to their geographic location both being in Germany.
    MGM decided to pair their controllers with the highest quality motors available in Europe. Hence it was also a good alliance.
    MGM controllers and Schulze's do not always work well with all motors, more specifically the 1D and 0.5Y.

    The reason Lehner's are one of the "easiest" motors to drive from a controller perspective is the stator wind design and rotor design. They produce a very clean sinusoidal voltage pattern which allows it easier to pick up rotor position and apply current to yield torque.

    LMT's are 2-pole motors compared to most Neu, TP and Leopards are 4-pole or higher. A 4-pole motor runs twice as fast compared to a 2-pole motor from the controller perspective even though they both are running at the same RPM. Higher apparent speeds usually tax the processor higher and sometimes require higher switching frequencies. Most of the heat in a controller is a result of the switching losses in the FET's, hence higher pole count motors with higher frequencies will lead to higher heat in the controller.

    Don't just assume a MGM will be the golden ticket. They work great with some motors. They also have a lot of safety protection built in which makes them less likely to fail, but also means they pull back power where others will push on.

    The best all around controller is a converted Castle ICE controller. If you add enough water cooling to these they can drive any motor with relative ease.
    Tyler Garrard
    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

  3. #3
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    How many amps are you able to pull with a Castle ICE (with enough water cooling) ?

    I've spoke with the MGM guys at one point and they mentioned that they would be able to upload a custom firmware that would turn off all limits.

    Is this the specific one you are talking about?

    phoenix-ice-200.jpg
    Last edited by dmitry100; 02-26-2018 at 01:21 AM.

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    Tyler are the Edge 200 esc any good or is it only the ICE unit that are worth converting?


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    With good cooling mods and by that I mean directly attaching copper or brass to the bus bars at least on one side you can expect 250A continuous and 350A peaks. If you apply four cooling tubes to both sides of the bus bars you can expect better performance and longevity.

    @Dmitry100, yes it is that ESC with the heat sinks removed and brass tubes soldered on. MGM will likely not sell you a "unlocked" ESC. I know they say they are willing to do that, but only for a select few racers who have established a good relationship with them. The reason for this is simple, if you remove the safety limits and burn up the ESC and boat they don't want people publishing bad press online and to the community. I can't fault them there.

    @ Steven, yes they are great ESC's when converted to direct cooling and conformal coated.

    -Tyler
    Tyler Garrard
    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

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    Hey Tyler, maybe this is a really dumb question but would you think the castle edge 160 HV actually does have less amp carrying ability than the 200 8s version? Just thinking they may have derated to keep the total watts lower. I have never seen the two side by side to compare. I am really considering the 160HV for an 8s boat just for the future flexibility and I like that it is less expensive and non-bec.

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    Thanks Tyler, I am building an 8s rigger for abit of fun not racing with a Lehner 2280/5 in a 41” tub, do you think the castle edge converted will handle the motor or will I need 300+ amps.
    Cheers


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    Jamey, the 160HV's are not nearly as capable as the 200's. In the 160's they use a higher voltage switch with less current rating hence the lower overall rating of 160A. It would seem straight forward that the HV performance should scale at some reasonable factor relative to the LV's, but testing and a lot of users would suggest that design is not as robust. Maybe they have improved it with the Edge series, but I can't say from personal experience. I am still running the ICE series.

    If you buy the ICE 200 with heat sinks, they will run 8S. I would go that route first and convert it to water cooling unless you have aspirations of running higher voltages.

    Steven,
    I know the the 2280/5 very well and it will pull a lot of amps if not careful. It's one motor I still only run with Schulze's and I have to add water cooling plates in addition to the cooling on the board. At best I would say it's marginal with the Castle although I run mine in a mono on 2P, where as a hydro with less weight and appropriate prop will not be as bad. I would opt for adding all four cooling tubes, top and bottom of each bus bar like this one.
    IMG_1192.JPG
    Tyler Garrard
    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

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    Tyler instead of the castle, which schulze controller would you use, 40.160? Do you have any pictures of the added cooling plates? What about the MGM esc’s is there one you would recommend to use? Cheers


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    I use the 32.200, 32.202, 40.160 and 40.161. All have been upgraded with additional capacitors.
    I do not have any pics of the cooling plates. These are something I machined a while ago. I do have a drawing if you wanted to machine some for yourself.

    If you are running a Lehner, then yes I would recommend the 28026 for Q and the 25035 for S. These work better than the larger footprint versions like the 25063 and 40063.


    Click here:

    Schulze 40.160wk chill plate.pdf
    Tyler Garrard
    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

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    Thanks Tyler great info as always just one last question, would the TMM 25035-3 be capable of running a 2280/5 Lehner? I’ve been offered a pair of schulze 40.160wk but at a €1000 Euro for both, I’m considering them however the MGM unit is a 3rd of the price.


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    . This is one of the controllers


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    Steven,
    I do not think a 25035 is going to run a 2280. It can run a 2250 and maybe a 2260, but not a 2280. The MGM's have very honest current limits and the 2280 will go above 300A easily.

    The controller you have shown is going to result in failures. Because the newer Schulze's have a built in anti-spark on the battery leads and you have additional caps on the leads, this will cause the caps on the caps on the board to fight the caps externally. You really want all the caps on the board for the newer ESC's from Schulze. On the older ones with no anti-spark, it is OK to add them to the battery leads.

    I failed a several newer 40.160WK's trying to use an external cap bank till Matthias and I worked out that it was the high in rush current coming from the external cap bank that blew the leads off the internal caps.

    These are how I upgrade my newer controllers today. Stock one on the left, modified on the right.

    IMG_0049.jpgIMG_0056.jpgIMG_0115.jpg
    Tyler Garrard
    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

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    Wow that’s a lot of caps, I’m glad I asked you before buying these controllers, are the newer controllers worth spending money on and then modifying by adding extra caps to the board or should I look for a different controller? If a different controller which one would you recommend?


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    That is a little expensive for the newer controllers, but it's supply vs demand. If you did buy them, I would remove the external caps and add the same quantity directly on the board like I have shown.
    Controllers for a 2280 are very limited because you need a true 300A+ continuous rated controller. A 40063 MGM would be the next option, but its price is close to the two Schulze's.
    Tyler Garrard
    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

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    Ok I will have to haggle with the seller and see what price I can get them for, what price would be sensible for these units?


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    In general, yes I like the newer and older Schulze's quite a bit. Look at the two on the left, these is the extreme case of extra caps. This was specifically for the 2280 and 30 series Lehners.

    IMG_0679.jpg
    Tyler Garrard
    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

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    That’s a nice collection 161’s, unfortunately the shulzes I was going to buy have been sold to someone else now. So my options are the MGM 400, what about the new Swordfish 300 X or the Atos 300, do you think these controllers are good enough quality to drive a 2280? I’m considering the MGM esc but the size is a concern.


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    How come you don't see anyone adding fets to Schulzes or any other ? Besides gunner that is. I would have thought it to be a straight forward process...

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    I have no experience with the newer X series from SF. And based on what I have seen from the Atos 300, it will not live up to its nameplate rating.
    The best option for the 2280 is the 40063, but be prepared to prop down as it will likely start to current limit at some point.

    Adding FET's is not like adding Caps. Gunnar, Arne and Joerg made special boards and used a Schulze control board.

    A few spares in my box
    IMG_0124.jpg
    but nothing compared to this hoarder.

    Schulze collection.jpg
    Tyler Garrard
    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmitry100 View Post
    How many amps are you able to pull with a Castle ICE (with enough water cooling) ?

    I've spoke with the MGM guys at one point and they mentioned that they would be able to upload a custom firmware that would turn off all limits.

    Is this the specific one you are talking about?

    phoenix-ice-200.jpg


    I’ve run the mamba xl2 converted to water cooling. It’s the exact same board as the ice 250 but different firmware. It’s extremely durable except for moisture. I now epoxy coat all of mine. I like the “elegance” of the mgm because they are very nice controllers but I did blow one up paired with a 2260 in a mono. I don’t recommend doing that, Keith Bradley even told me that the lehners didn’t seem to like a v hull. I’m sure others may say differently but that’s been mine and his experience. He mentioned something about Joel thinking the same thing too, I didn’t hear that from Joel personally. I do have a mgm and a neu 1521 in my newest mono and I’m not so sure I really want to run it. I thought about trading the mgm for a newer sf300. Just my .02
    32" carbon rivercat single 4s 102mph, 27” mini Rivercat 92mph, kbb34 91mph, jessej micro cat(too fast) was

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaceMechaniX View Post
    I have no experience with the newer X series from SF. And based on what I have seen from the Atos 300, it will not live up to its nameplate rating.
    The best option for the 2280 is the 40063, but be prepared to prop down as it will likely start to current limit at some point.

    Adding FET's is not like adding Caps. Gunnar, Arne and Joerg made special boards and used a Schulze control board.

    A few spares in my box
    IMG_0124.jpg
    but nothing compared to this hoarder.

    Schulze collection.jpg
    Wow that’s some collection of controllers, what size is the MGM 400? It looks huge and will definitely not fit in my rigger lol


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    kfxguy, you are planning to run the 2260 on 6s? Maybe go up in voltage ... 8s or 10s, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBryant View Post
    Wow that’s some collection of controllers, what size is the MGM 400? It looks huge and will definitely not fit in my rigger lol


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    Mmm, well then there goes my suggestion of a Flier 400. There are a couple versions of it tho, one WP and the other not so much but then smaller.

    You know, I always learn something from Tyler’s posts. This time an improvement on Castle conversions.

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    srislash, you put your HPR on the water yet? hows is it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmitry100 View Post
    srislash, you put your HPR on the water yet? hows is it ?
    Not yet but she should be complete in a few days Dmitry. Build thread is on here.

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    Tyler, Any differences going with ICE 200 over the Edge 200 ?

    Figured a newer revision would be updated with more modern switches and all that. Or did they stick current limitations on the Edge ...

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    I have not looked at the Edge in any detail so I could not say. I believe the biggest change was on the control board and in software. I don't believe the power stage changed at all.

    -Tyler
    Tyler Garrard
    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

  29. #29
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    Tyler, how much extra caps would you recommend on the ICE 200 ? Around 5k would be fine?

    BTW - where can I buy some super high strand 10 and 14g copper wire? I remember OSE used to have some limited stock of the German wire before which was really good stuff, now I'm trying to find more of something similar. I believe it was like 500 or 1000 strand. Is the stuff from Castle just as good?
    Last edited by dmitry100; 03-12-2018 at 05:44 PM.

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    I think i found some good ones... TQ wire. Though a little silly no one ever has it in red.

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