Had an interesting experience

[CraigP]

Well if everything is different where you are, then what’s the point of posting? It appears that you also have a completely unique set of physics formulas working in your area too. Dude, you should apply for a Nobel Prize for discovering Variations in Physics Interactions Based on Regions. Better get on that, before someone in Australia beats you to it!

[kfxguy]

Well if everything is different where you are, then what’s the point of posting? It appears that you also have a completely unique set of physics formulas working in your area too. Dude, you should apply for a Nobel Prize for discovering Variations in Physics Interactions Based on Regions. Better get on that, before someone in Australia beats you to it!

This. Lol

[vinnyp]

Well if everything is different where you are, then what’s the point of posting? It appears that you also have a completely unique set of physics formulas working in your area too. Dude, you should apply for a Nobel Prize for discovering Variations in Physics Interactions Based on Regions. Better get on that, before someone in Australia beats you to it!

Perfectly said....

[Speed3]

The guys hear are skilled, but the water makes all the difference.

In the video I post earlier in the thread with the stock revolt using the m545 on 4s.

I was racing 2 other boats, one was a completely stock revolt with the grim racer 4255 on 4s, with just an ESC upgrade seaking 120 v3.

The other boat was a motley crew on 5s with a proboat 1500 kV motor and a 3 blade CNC prop.

Well my stock revolt with the 545 pulled away from the other 2 boats, behind me was the other revolt then the motley crew.

Well the distance that my revolt covered in 4seconds at that time.

It now covers in about 2 seconds with the leopard 4092 2080kv on 4s with the same m545.

That's around double the speed or close to double. Just to show the power that the leopards have.

You can see the videos for support to confirm my claims. The links were posted.

Thanks for you patients.

[MADRCER]

I have seen the zelos 36 in action. A stock zelos 36 on 6s cannot get close to my revolt on 4s with the 2080kv 4092 leopard.

Hi Speed3! Let me show you a stock Zelos 36 in action. This was my 3rd fastest recorded run.



Also, I'd go out on a limb and say that the stock RTR boat linked below running 80mph might be able to keep up with your 4s revolt or it might even give it a reality check...I may be wrong but just saying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlpdo0DxJ7w&t=5s

[Speed3]

Madrcer your boats are very fast. I don't doubt your speed but those boats would be subject to another set of physics laws. That zelos that did 88mph with the 1716 ABC props would probably be limited to 50mph max in my area.

I have videos of those 2 boats running in the waters that I run in. So I know for a fact what I am talking about. A zelos with 42mm props is not that fast where I run. They need bigger diameter props to reach 60mph on 6s.

A stock 6s zelos would be in the 40's in my area.

The Velez is faster out of the box, in the 50's in the region where I live. You might have gotten 60 to 62 with the Velez and the 1716 ABC props.

I can tell you you may never get to 80mph no matter what you do in my area.

I know a guy who did 67.9mph in our waters. Fastest ever recorded in our waters.

The fastest a zelos did was 64 or 65 with a setup probably similar to the 95mph zelos setup.

I see a genesis on YouTube which did 103mph. The guy give a like description of his setup in the comments.

Last week end a dude brought a genesis when I saw the boat I realize he had in a motor similar to the 103mph genesis, I think he even had on a ABC 18 or 19 17 45 series 2 blade. I am not sure how much cells he ran, I know nothing less than 4. Should have been a 60 plus mph setup minimum. Well if he did 35mph he set a record.

I couldn't believe what was going on before my eyes.

I can tell you, you will be lucky if you can get a genesis to do 60 in the waters in my area.

The physics is totally different here.

[Doug Smock]

Enough of the bashing guys............

Thanks

[Bp9145]

Enough of the bashing guys............

Thanks

Sorry Doug, after reading everyone's post I couldn't help myself but put my 2¢ in and got carried away. It's just a bit frustrating when most of us are here to genuinely help so we can make this hobby fun for everyone and yet we sometimes get this. . .well just a bit frustrating that's all. .apologies

[MADRCER]

Madrcer your boats are very fast. I don't doubt your speed but those boats would be subject to another set of physics laws.

The Velez is faster out of the box, in the 50's in the region where I live. You might have gotten 60 to 62 with the Velez and the 1716 ABC props.

Thanks Speed3 for the comment! A Veles 29 on 6s with a stock raw prop in my area will only run mid 50's and one not tuned properly with an average prepped 1716 will only be in the mid 60's here also. So with that comparison your waters may not be too much different than here in the States. Your varying results could be that the boats weren't set up properly and or how the props were prepped.

[Luck as a Constant]

Enough of the bashing guys............

Thanks

Sorry dude, I could at least post something informative with my time.

I will simply add that I’ve always liked leopard motors and have always worked for me as sport setups.

[CraigP]

[Speed3]

Thanks for your feedback.

I realize the tread doesn't serve any relevance to you guys.

But it seems to me that the tp motor have stronger magnets than the leopard. Which I think should translate to higher rpm underload kV to kv, with a similar can size.

Then using a 8mm shaft in side the motor with the piece coming out being 5mm should translate to the ability to run smoother at higher rpm.

So the tp I would say is higher quality.

But the waters where I live will expose the difference between motor.

If a motor has more torque it stands out.

And the leopard stood out to be the more powerful of the two in my experience.

I thinking if the leopards could have handled the higher rev like the tp it would be interesting to see them in higher level competition.

I know for a fact the leopards would run cooler than the tp once everything is solder well.

[kfxguy]

Madrcer your boats are very fast. I don't doubt your speed but those boats would be subject to another set of physics laws. That zelos that did 88mph with the 1716 ABC props would probably be limited to 50mph max in my area.

I have videos of those 2 boats running in the waters that I run in. So I know for a fact what I am talking about. A zelos with 42mm props is not that fast where I run. They need bigger diameter props to reach 60mph on 6s.

A stock 6s zelos would be in the 40's in my area.

The Velez is faster out of the box, in the 50's in the region where I live. You might have gotten 60 to 62 with the Velez and the 1716 ABC props.

I can tell you you may never get to 80mph no matter what you do in my area.

I know a guy who did 67.9mph in our waters. Fastest ever recorded in our waters.

The fastest a zelos did was 64 or 65 with a setup probably similar to the 95mph zelos setup.

I see a genesis on YouTube which did 103mph. The guy give a like description of his setup in the comments.

Last week end a dude brought a genesis when I saw the boat I realize he had in a motor similar to the 103mph genesis, I think he even had on a ABC 18 or 19 17 45 series 2 blade. I am not sure how much cells he ran, I know nothing less than 4. Should have been a 60 plus mph setup minimum. Well if he did 35mph he set a record.

I couldn't believe what was going on before my eyes.

I can tell you, you will be lucky if you can get a genesis to do 60 in the waters in my area.

The physics is totally different here.

I’m sorry to tell you but unless you live in the twilight zone, there’s no way an 80mph boat is going to drop to 50mph. No way, no how, unless the water is super rough and you can’t get on it. Your comparing guys on this forum that know how to dial a boat in to fellas that I confidently assume are still learning. My first time running a Daytona (genesis) the boat didn’t even do 40mph on its maiden. Those boats like a very high strut compared to other hulls. I eventually got it to 80mph. Strut height and angle will make or break a boat. If your guys boats are not dialed in, they will go slow. That genesis you saw 103, I set that boat up. It had a tp motor and he was running 8s, way over voltage on that boat for what the motor was designed for. I’ve had people think that the lake in must have some special water for me to be going as fast as I have, I’ve gone to several other spots and recorded speeds close enough to rule that out.


There are also lots of other factors coming into play to make a boat faster that I’ve mentioned, if you don’t have your setup optimized, it’s not going to be as fast as the next guy who’s setup is.

[Speed3]

Well I did some amp draw test to compare the salt water in my area to fresh water.

The salt water requires 140% more amps for the same exact setup. I did the test to compare the two waters.

A zelos twin with stock motors is doing a little over 60 max. After upgrading the props.

And I can tell you they know what they area doing the water is the difference.

I don't know if you every hear about the exceed shark2. I read it does 30mph on 3s out of the box.

It does 21 to 22 in our waters.

The stock revolt was said to be approaching 40mph with the stock grim racer 4255 and 4s.

It does about 30 to 31 max.

When using the octura m545 it goes up to 35mph.

That setup I read persons are getting 48mph.

The stock traxxas spartan did 35mph on a good 6s pack.

Same boat I saw videos of it doing 48mph.

I know a guy had a zelos twin, put in 4082 size sss or tp I think the kV was over 2000kv and 6s per motor. I think he had on counter rotating x447. Could not get the boat pass 65 to 66mph no matter what prop he used. And I have seen videos of zelos doing over 90mph with similar setups.

I know guys setup they boat based on setups they see. 90 plus mph setups and the boats get stuck in the 60's.

[kfxguy]

All I can do is lol. Your going by what it says on the box? Lmao. Umm. No. It’s capable of that in experienced hands. I’ve never seen a boat do what it says out the box without adjustments. The veles is the only one I’ve seen comes real close. But ok, I’ll go along with what you say.

140% more amps? So if a given boat takes 150amps on one water than it will take 375 amps on the other? Wow. Seems a little off to me. What do I know? Just gotta take your word on it I guess.

[CraigP]

Speed, I have to stop you here and try to clear up some very misunderstood thoughts about “different water”. There is fresh water and salt water. Both of these can be moving water, as in a current. If the current is going your direction, you will pick the speed of the current up in your boat, and you will get propulsion thrust speed plus the current speed. Just the opposite if the current is moving against you.

That’s not the point you are making, but I thought I would lay it all out. You’re saying because of the increased density of salt water, that the propellor has to work harder to displace the water, or cut the water. You are correct in that thought, it does take additional power to cut higher density water. What you’re NOT thinking about is how higher density water aids your craft. Because it weighs more, more of your boat is out of the water and you don’t have to put in power to pick it out of the water to the degree of fresh water. Also, because of the higher density, things “skip” more easily across higher density water, also reducing power demands. In the end, boats actually can travel faster in salt water given the same relative calmness to fresh water. It actually takes less power for a given speed, because of the drop in hull resistance due to the higher density water. The prop is but one element on the negative side, while there are more things on the positive side.

Most of us don’t like salt water because it’s so hard on the boat in terms of corrosion. It’s a PIA to clean it and maintenance efforts are much higher. Also, there is only ONE set of physic equations. There are different coefficients to the expressions defining different sets of circumstances, but that’s it.

What you think you are observing just isn’t due to the things you think they are. I hope you will read this, and realize, while you are a naturally bright person, you have some holes to fill in. But we just aren’t buying your conclusions because they are based on a faulty premise of understanding. But keep thinking about it, and try posting some of your perceptions as questions because there are many here with an abundance of experience. Have fun boating and figuring it out, because that’s where the joy in the sport truly lays.

[kfxguy]

Speed, I have to stop you here and try to clear up some very misunderstood thoughts about “different water”. There is fresh water and salt water. Both of these can be moving water, as in a current. If the current is going your direction, you will pick the speed of the current up in your boat, and you will get propulsion thrust speed plus the current speed. Just the opposite if the current is moving against you.

That’s not the point you are making, but I thought I would lay it all out. You’re saying because of the increased density of salt water, that the propellor has to work harder to displace the water, or cut the water. You are correct in that thought, it does take additional power to cut higher density water. What you’re NOT thinking about is how higher density water aids your craft. Because it weighs more, more of your boat is out of the water and you don’t have to put in power to pick it out of the water to the degree of fresh water. Also, because of the higher density, things “skip” more easily across higher density water, also reducing power demands. In the end, boats actually can travel faster in salt water given the same relative calmness to fresh water. It actually takes less power for a given speed, because of the drop in hull resistance due to the higher density water. The prop is but one element on the negative side, while there are more things on the positive side.

Most of us don’t like salt water because it’s so hard on the boat in terms of corrosion. It’s a PIA to clean it and maintenance efforts are much higher. Also, there is only ONE set of physic equations. There are different coefficients to the expressions defining different sets of circumstances, but that’s it.

What you think you are observing just isn’t due to the things you think they are. I hope you will read this, and realize, while you are a naturally bright person, you have some holes to fill in. But we just aren’t buying your conclusions because they are based on a faulty premise of understanding. But keep thinking about it, and try posting some of your perceptions as questions because there are many here with an abundance of experience. Have fun boating and figuring it out, because that’s where the joy in the sport truly lays.

Good explanation

[Speed3]

I love the logics Craig it sound very good and seems to make sense.

I just want to share my view on the boat lifting easier. The denser water causes the boat to lift easy I agree.

So maybe the hull might lift to the max say 40 to 45mph in salt water.

While in fresh water it may have the same lift at say 55 to 60mph.

My view on this is the hull will reach it limit of stability much quicker in salt water. Which based on what I am seeing would seem to be reasonable thinking.

And because of the much denser water being harder on the prop. It would take a smaller prop with less pitch to push the shaft and the coupler to the torque limit. Which again I have found to be the case.

Example I followed the voracity turning thread because I was thinking of getting one and I was researching stuff that can be done to it.
I saw where someone used an octura x457 and x460. Big props 55 to close to 60mm in diameter on 6s with the leopard 4092. And the leopard has more torque than the stock voracity motor.

Actual example here in our waters. I have seen someone break the solid piece that holds the prop on the voracity with a sharpen and balance octura x450 2 blade. And that is with the stock voracity motor.

I myself have found the m545 with the leopard 4092 1730kv on 5s is pushing an upgraded octura coupler and an upgraded shaft to they torque limit. Anymore torque and the coupler can grip the shaft at full throttle.

This is what happens when you run in the denser waters in my area.

Thanks for you patients and feedback.

[vinnyp]

Speed,
I run my rc boats in salt water all the time, in a bay that is just a short hop from the Atlantic Ocean. I cant blame my lack of speed due to the salt content or denser water. I admit to not be able to run as fast as other members of this forum, simply because of my minimal experience and set ups. I am quite certain that if the speedy guys on this forum were to come and run in the waters in " My area" they would easily achieve the same speeds they get from their fresh water ponds.
I am certain there are places on this Earth where the salinity is unusually higher due to some type of natural phenomenom. Perhaps there is some special reason the salinity of your water is much higher than other places like the Atlantic?

On another note: I have run full sized offshore powerboats in both salt and fresh water and have seen no difference in speed or handling characteristics. In my opinion, the difference between salt and fresh water would be so small, it would be undetectable.

[Meniscus]

So, at risk of interjecting, let me share this. We have all had different experiences each time we go out to the pond. Many times, we try to make assumptions concerning why this is. Most of the time, we are trying to get more speed out of our model. There are many variables that have been identified in this thread already.

As-long-as we admit that there are always differences, then I believe sharing your experiences are good. Please keep in mind that everything from water temperature, the internal resistance for the cells and even the temperature of the cells can have a significant impact.

I have experienced first hand where I have seen gains in speed, even with hard water based on what I believed was my fine tune adjustments. However, every model, even those boats of the same model, will have differences in the way the run and react to different props. I've hand-wound motors just to find out that on some days, they run faster on the water with a different prop on different days.

The good news is that you are seeing cool temps. If you would like to increase the speed or change the way the model behaves, be sure to let the folks here know.

Regarding D-wind motors, best practice is to maintain lower timing. The extra heat may not become apparent until you start to swing a larger prop or one with more pitch, but there's a strong probability you will see more heat than if you set the timing lower. Just keep this in mind as you continue to enjoy the hobby. If it shaves off a couple MPH on one day or the next, try not to stress it too much. Also, if you decide to try to make quantitative assumptions, keep in mind that many, many variables come into play.

If you do not want to discuss additional factors that may improve performance (in speed, handling, runtimes, etc.), then I would recommend focusing on sharing what it is that you want to achieve. Otherwise, it is safe to say that you are happy with the reliability from the motors you have referenced. A statement like that is most useful for other readers and those who cannot afford to have several motors to test with.

[Speed3]

Thanks everyone who have provided feedback.

[MADRCER]

I know a guy who did 67.9mph in our waters. Fastest ever recorded in our waters.
The physics is totally different here.

Hey Speed, It looks like C-Mac just set the world on fire down in the BVI...Great job to him! You might not want to get that Revolt out there on the water with his boat! Shattered the previous record of 67.9mph you were talking about above. Maybe things are changing down in your area?

[Speed3]

No things are not changing, that's one of my running mates. And I know the setups in those boats.

I cannot disclose the setups but I can tell you those boats have in way more power than anything I have ever read about with a single motor.

Just to give a hint.

Imagine a Neu 2230 with above 700kv on 12s turning props 60 plus mm.

Imagine the speed that boat would do.

[CraigP]

Hmmm, special Laws of Physics, double top secret setups... You just don’t seem to bring much to the forum, other than controversy. I got a boat just like yours, just ran it at 140mph in some special water. I had 4 GPS units in it, all read within 1mph. I can’t tell you any more. Sound familiar? It’s the water that makes it so fast... Special water

[Speed3]

https://youtu.be/BYKEUHkvkx4

This was a race with my revolt vs a voracity with a x452.

Both boats was using 5s.

[Speed3]

The t class boats I think run 10s according to my research. Well those guys run hotter setups than those setups used for the t world records.

[MADRCER]

No things are not changing, that's one of my running mates. And I know the setups in those boats.

I cannot disclose the setups but I can tell you those boats have in way more power than anything I have ever read about with a single motor.

Just to give a hint.

Imagine a Neu 2230 with above 700kv on 12s turning props 60 plus mm.

Imagine the speed that boat would do.

Yes I know C-Mac is one of your mates....that's why I brought it to your attention that he had a fast boat in your area which you were saying just didn't happen down there. BTW PLEASE don't take it that I was trying to pry into ya'lls "fast boat" setups down there at all....Because I got a feeling that I can dial one in decent enough for me to have fun with. But if you get a spare moment read the comments in some of my videos and you will see that I have gladly answered EVERY question that C-Mac has EVER asked me about my Zelos 36 and the other 17,000+ people that have viewed that video has got my set up as well. Heck, if I remember right I usually just go ahead and post my info in plain sight for everyone to see because Rc boating to me isn't fun if you don't have anyone to beat....Lol! I REALLY like C-Mac's comment to me on his video below. Take a minute to read it if you have time.

[Speed3]

Madracer I would like to share info on the setups but I don't think the guys would like it. So I don't. But in the hint that I give with a neu 2230 and 12s and 60 plus mm props.

The motors are like that size, the cell count is 12s and props are big.

You probably saw the 72.7mph cheetah. That have a setup that would have easily been 90 plus. Based on my research.

Madracer I saw your 88mph video with your zelos. That cheetah that did 72.7 mph is setup to be faster than zelos twins with upgrade motors, ESC, prop.

I have seen them boy push motors to the limit where you hit a certain speed with a certain prop and put on bigger props. Diameter and pitch and the boat loses a little speed.

And I am referring to motors like leopards, tp's, castle and 4074, 4082, 56mm cans. I have seen them push to the point where they is no more speed.

I have seen setups run that man would be afraid to try.

70mph was something which couldn't be done.

Those speeds were only possible location where you see those video.

The zelos was hit 63 to 65 max. Highly upgraded. 4082 size motor, 47mm prop about 6s per motor. Couldn't pass 65mph.

When them boy went to that location they boats got more stable and they gain like 7mph to they speed.

So even on our little island the waters affect the speeds greatly.

The water could look flat and when you sail in it when you reach 50mph you have handling problems. Another location the same boat nothing change would be very stable in the 50's.

[MADRCER]

Awesome thanks for the info! I hopped the below little boat up to bring with me on vacation down in the Caribbean later this year, so I got it running 32-33mph here in the States and I was wanting to be solid in the 8-10mph range down there. How fast do you think it will be down there in that area? Stock it was around 19-20mph (US speed) and I figured that it would move about like a sail boat down there if I left it stock in those haunted waters, so I had to do something if you know what I mean.

[NativePaul]

Well I did some amp draw test to compare the salt water in my area to fresh water.

The salt water requires 140% more amps for the same exact setup. I did the test to compare the two waters.

A zelos twin with stock motors is doing a little over 60 max. After upgrading the props.

And I can tell you they know what they area doing the water is the difference.

I don't know if you every hear about the exceed shark2. I read it does 30mph on 3s out of the box.

It does 21 to 22 in our waters.

The stock revolt was said to be approaching 40mph with the stock grim racer 4255 and 4s.

It does about 30 to 31 max.

When using the octura m545 it goes up to 35mph.

That setup I read persons are getting 48mph.

The stock traxxas spartan did 35mph on a good 6s pack.

Same boat I saw videos of it doing 48mph.

I know a guy had a zelos twin, put in 4082 size sss or tp I think the kV was over 2000kv and 6s per motor. I think he had on counter rotating x447. Could not get the boat pass 65 to 66mph no matter what prop he used. And I have seen videos of zelos doing over 90mph with similar setups.

I know guys setup they boat based on setups they see. 90 plus mph setups and the boats get stuck in the 60's.

And because of the much denser water being harder on the prop. It would take a smaller prop with less pitch to push the shaft and the coupler to the torque limit. Which again I have found to be the case.

I know water can make a big difference, but I am mot sure I believe 140%.

Taking it at face value however it sounds like you need to start modding props, Detounging backcutting and reducing the diameter will all reduce the amp draw considerably without reducing the pitch speed.

You should be able to use the same props as others do for the same setups, but cut the props down so they pull the same amps, and get very similar performance in your soupy water.