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Thread: More limited motor discussion

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTVboats View Post
    Make a decision on length 60, 61.3, 62 and go with it.
    So we go with 60mm max length. Now I'll call up Neu and have them cut the guts down on a 1415 motor and stuff as much as they can into a 60mm can.
    Will probably weigh about 280g to 285g and will become an "own it or chase it" motor. So go spend $250 to $300 on a motor to be competitive in the class. Class is ruined.
    Or worse... someone builds there own packed motor at 285g and no one else can even get it at all without knowing how to build a motor. People are pissed and class is ruined.

    And can't just go smaller than 60mm because other good motors would then be out.
    Have fun with that....

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTVboats View Post
    If you think for a minute there won't be protests your naïve.
    As Terry Davis said...
    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    I really think the number of times that a protest was made would be minimal. If cheating was expected already (I read that in here somewhere).............why aren't there protests now? We've already established there are guys capable or re-winding a motor, swapping bearings, balancing rotors, whatever. It could have been done. Yet nobody has ever protested a motor to my knowledge since the old limited rules passed. Because most everyone knows the rule, complies, and we trust each other. 9 years of the class with rules that could be circumvented and nobody at a race though they were being cheated.
    Have fun with that....

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTVboats View Post
    The intent of spec was to keep things simple and inexpensive to attract new racers.
    Exactly...

    Simple = Diameter x Length x Weight

    Inexpensive = Utilizing a weight limit to block out expensive custom made motors that will dominant the class.
    Someone can go spend the money and/or time with a custom motor, but with a weight limit its probably not going to dominant. Can only get so much in a 37mm x 62mm canister that can't weight over 270 grams. With no weight limit, I've proven that a dominant motor can be produced within a 37mm x 62mm canister. It weighs 10% more then the next heaviest motor. I say dominant based on Brian Buaas's experience and data from that motor.

    New racers will come because they can buy RTR boats and be competitive with stock motors.
    This will be even less expensive then current NAMBA rules because as it stands if a newbie really likes the Proboat UL-19 or Veles 29, they spend $430 on the boat... or they like the Promarine Skater or Phantom SV 33 for $590, but then have to go buy a different $75 motor which will probably cause the boat to go slower. Oh... and that newbie needs to learn how to solder new connectors on that $75 motor to mate with the esc.
    Last edited by dethow; 02-16-2018 at 01:08 PM.
    Have fun with that....

  4. #154
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    I tried really hard to not think about this for a couple days. I'm kinda pissy about it now. Sorry guys.

    Simple and easy to tech to attract new boaters is IMO still only part of the goal. It has to be at least interesting enough to veteran racers to make them want to participate too. I know Darin is frustrated, but the class (and FE really) needs guys like him to stick with it. Race with the new guy. Teach him to do all that crap Doby mentioned. We're all better for it. Get good at spec and the next thing you know you have a T rigger. Okay.......that's a big leap but you get the idea.

    For MMEU club series, the addition of a weight limit would make zero difference. We already know what everyone is running. Only Dave's fresh 1415's would be even close to a limit if we came up with one. It still would have to be protested in the appropriate fashion.
    Noisy person

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Oh... and that newbie needs to learn how to solder new connectors on that $75 motor to mate with the esc.
    Weird enough... and I think others will agree.

    That right there has been one of the biggest deterrents for new racers. Tell a guy what boat to go buy and he's with you. Once you start telling him to then go buy this specific motor and the need to learn out to solder on new connectors... You see the glazed over look in their eyes and you know they'll never turn a lap of racing.
    Have fun with that....

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    For MMEU club series, the addition of a weight limit would make zero difference. We already know what everyone is running. Only Dave's fresh 1415's would be even close to a limit if we came up with one. It still would have to be protested in the appropriate fashion.
    Terry,
    Whatever you, Tom and the rest of the club think is best.
    I just wanted you all to know that I will not be offended or hurt if we need to knock these 1415 out of the races.

    With that said... I don't think a weight limit is the way to do it right now. We don't need to complicate things this season and add the possibility of protests. We just simply say 37mm x 62mm motor limits except for cut down Neu 1415s and TP 3640s. (Add the TP just incase)

    Think about it. We'll talk.
    I just don't want guys leaving the Nats feeling they may have gotten that second or third place finish if those 1415s weren't allowed. I don't think me racing my motors will effect first because I'm not good enough, but it could start to effect who's getting seconds and thirds.
    Have fun with that....

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    An idea from an outsider that may have already been thought of but how about setting general motor specs and instituting a "claimer rule" . Seems to work pretty well in local stock car racing.

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    Hi Robert, it has been discussed several times through the years.

    It's Friday fellas. What do you say we take a little break and revisit this next week?

    Bet ya can't do it!!
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    I understand your fatigue Doug, this is a very hard subject to come up with a working solution. I have an idea to just throw out there...

    Instead of diving into the minutia of motor details and specs, look at it from a bigger picture. A solution that takes all the cheater tactics out of play, batteries, ESC mods, the list goes on and on. But in the end, an out of spec boat is going to have more ft lbs of torque at the prop. My idea is to set a max torque output. Then, we create a hand-held dynometer that hooks to the drive shaft by an adapter when the prop is removed.

    This is easier than your thinking right now... it’s basically a brushed motor, that is hooked to to a resistor pack. The resistors are calibrated for torque output. Now, all that’s required by the Techs at the race is to hook it to the boat, hit full throttle and look for a green or red light. Who cares how they cheated, whether it’s motor mods, illegal batts, ESC mods, whatever! You got too much torque, your out of there.

    Now folks will really think twice about cheating because they don’t have the club’s dynometer. I would be willing to help develop this. Someone should also ask Jay’s opinion. But it seems to me, you have to take the check to the last element in the boat, and that’s torque on the prop shaft...

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    David wins... I think I've met my match in the "over-analyze-it" department!

    He and I are going to get along just fine!

    Have a GREAT weekend, everyone!!
    Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
    "Self-proclaimed skill-less leader in the hobby."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    He and I are going to get along just fine!
    Look forward to seeing you in Michigan.

    I think we will agree on one thing thou... taking a weight would be a lot better then trying to measure torque.
    I could over analyze the sh*t out of that one. I'm not even going there. Just a simply NO WAY
    Have fun with that....

  12. #162
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    Craig did bring something to the conversation that I don't remember seeing in the (we'd probably pee our pants if we knew how) many posts on this subject. Interesting Craig.

    Have a great weekend fellas!
    I'm going to a grandsons birthday party tomorrow. Sunday I'm going to work on boats not talk about them!

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    Doug, could you please copy my post and send to Jay (Fluid) to get another opinion? He’s an electronics guy, but this is a very SIMPLE system... I’m sure he will read something from you, thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigP View Post
    Doug, could you please copy my post and send to Jay (Fluid) to get another opinion? He’s an electronics guy, but this is a very SIMPLE system... I’m sure he will read something from you, thanks!
    Will do Craig.
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  15. #165
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    OMG... guys! Just stop this now.

    First: Same motor in different winds will have completely different torque outputs.

    Second: You say: "Now folks will really think twice about cheating because they don’t have the club’s dynometer."
    If no one has this custom made dynometer then how will anyone even know if their setup/motor is legal?

    Third: Lets get into batteries. What's the voltage and discharge rate of the battery being utilized in this test? That's going to effect the output torque.

    Fourth: What timing is the esc set at? Different timings will produce a different torque output.

    I really hope this was just Because this is just plain crazy...
    Have fun with that....

  16. #166
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    Motors are not free energy devices! You don’t get “free torque” because of a winding. Given that the class has a specified voltage, the only change to the dynometer would be for kv. That would be a resistor value change, easily implemented with a selector switch. Timing makes no difference, only changes the impedance of the power transfer between ESC and motor. There’s a “sweet timing” and all else is a loss. It’s like tuning a resonant mode circuit.

    Facts are facts, everything you have been discussing are teqniques to increase torque, which is HP. You all seem to be protecting your way of modifying, while shutting down avenues to others. Power at the prop shaft is the only measurement that takes all your little tricks into account. Hell, keep doing what you want, but if you go over the max torque, your out. It’s not the tech crew’s job to tell you specifically why you’re over torque, it’s your responsibility to make sure it’s compliant.

    All other “uphill” checks will always leave things in a subjective light. Motors change with the manufacturer’s, how the hell are you going to keep up? Bottom line, this shifts the responsibility from the tech crew to the racer. It’s a fast check and certainly less intrusive than pulling your motor and somebody taking a micrometer to it. That’s crazy, not the dynometer idea...

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigP View Post
    Hell, keep doing what you want, but if you go over the max torque, your out. It’s not the tech crew’s job to tell you specifically why you’re over torque, it’s your responsibility to make sure it’s compliant.
    So if I could get this straight... I don't have a dynometer and I should just keep doing what I want, but then the tech crew is going to come over and tell me I have to much torque and not provide me any information on why that may be.
    I just don't get to race. I don't get to race in an event I traveled how many miles to get to and cost me how much money in travel expenses because I don't have a dynometer. Because I won't know the results until I get there and even once I get the results I'll have no idea how to get legal.
    Buts it okay... its all my fault because its my responsibility to make sure it's compliant. My responsibility even thou I don't have a dynometer.

    Good luck with that...

    But wait... all is good. I'll just change my esc timing and get it within the torque limit.
    Or wait... maybe I'll just turn down the throttle limits on my remote.
    I think we can all guess what's going to happen when that tech crew leaves my pit.

    I can't believe this is even kinda in the conversation.

    I'm out... have a good weekend all. Go USA Olympic team
    Last edited by dethow; 02-16-2018 at 10:10 PM.
    Have fun with that....

  18. #168
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    LOL Take a deep cleansing breath......... ok, good..........aaand exhale..... now, repeat and we'll see everyone Monday.

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    Well you’re right about that, there are tweaks that could be made. So really, if it’s you're intent to go all out (in a limited class) to gain an advantage, then there’s really no way to tech it all out. This is exactly why I don’t race. All of this conversation is really not would I would call a positive PR campaign for class racing. It’s just too much hassle and the politics really take a lot of fun out of it. I leave this up to you guys to sort out... Time for the weekend!

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigP View Post
    Well you’re right about that, there are tweaks that could be made. So really, if it’s you're intent to go all out (in a limited class) to gain an advantage, then there’s really no way to tech it all out. This is exactly why I don’t race. All of this conversation is really not would I would call a positive PR campaign for class racing. It’s just too much hassle and the politics really take a lot of fun out of it. I leave this up to you guys to sort out... Time for the weekend!
    And you're right about that.

    Ok fellas, a forum first. A forced break. I'll open the thread back up on Monday morning.
    If Steven thinks I have done this in error he can smack my hand and open it back up sooner.
    Don't start a new thread, I'll be watching. lol
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  21. #171
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    Good morning fellas, hope everyone had a great weekend!

    Listen guys. The dimension proposal was rejected by the IMPBA BOD at a recent meeting. There was no contest. There is no need for any more discussion on that, it won't be revisited.

    Mike Ball is our new National Fast Electric Director. Information on who, what, where, when, and why, will be published in the April Roostertail.

    It is important to know that Mike is currently working at the direction of the IMPBA BOD on behalf of the membership. It is in our best interest to support him in his in his efforts to accomplish the task before him. These are unique classes and require a unique approach. Mike is seeking information on motor dimensions and weight. This IS the current path of the IMPBA. Remember, no racing rule goes into the rulebook without a one year trial and a membership vote. Lets see where this takes us.

    https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...ing-motor-data

    Thanks for taking this on Mike!"


    For the sake of keeping these discussions as clean as possible please take the NAMBA discussion to this thread. https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...n-the-hot-seat
    Last edited by Doug Smock; 02-19-2018 at 07:53 AM.
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    Congrats Mike, I feel good that your the FE national director of IMPBA. I'm sure you will get everything aligned the way it should be.
    Cheers, Jay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    Good morning fellas, hope everyone had a great weekend!

    Listen guys. The dimension proposal was rejected by the IMPBA BOD at a recent meeting. There was no contest. There is no need for any more discussion on that, it won't be revisited.

    Mike Ball is our new National Fast Electric Director. Information on who, what, where, when, and why, will be published in the April Roostertail.

    It is important to know that Mike is currently working at the direction of the IMPBA BOD on behalf of the membership. It is in our best interest to support him in his in his efforts to accomplish the task before him. These are unique classes and require a unique approach. Mike is seeking information on motor dimensions and weight. This IS the current path of the IMPBA. Remember, no racing rule goes into the rulebook without a one year trial and a membership vote. Lets see where this takes us.

    https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...ing-motor-data

    Thanks for taking this on Mike!"


    For the sake of keeping these discussions as clean as possible please take the NAMBA discussion to this thread. https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...n-the-hot-seat
    Just so everyone knows.. NAMBA proposal for size limit was pulled.. until this is figured out.

  24. #174
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    I'm pretty comfortable with the current direction. It's all just data collection now. Length x width x weight = done

    I do know that the BOD has had this discussion. Apparently they were pretty well versed. There was a time the BOD members wouldn't have given us a thought. These days they're engaged though. Very cool times. They're on board with finding a viable setup. Something that not only works but will hold up for a while. So no worries guys. They'll get it. With some help from Mr. Ball. Just be patient. Honestly I'm very encouraged.

    Craig, you can't limit torque. Different boats like different things. A rigger for instance (most of them) wants rpm. They weigh nothing and if done correctly have very little drag. Torque is less important. So maybe 2300kv with a seemingly small prop. Let er rip. Where as a mono run in offshore is accelerating a out of many turns. Usually run wet because the water gets weird by lap three. For that you need to get out of the hole as quickly as possible. More blade in the water. You need torque for that.

    We're not defining a power spec for a single type of boat. There are multiple hull and race types we're covering with this.

    Wonder if I'll have to call Mike by "yer lordship" or something. haha
    Noisy person

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    I think the whole thing is over complicated at this point.

    You are taking a system that really worked well for many years and are now tossing it. WHY? Because no one moved with the times. The motor list got old and became worthless.

    My suggestion would be this. Start a board that deals with the spec motors, make a list of allowed motors. Then review and add on a annual or biannual basis.
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    I've admitted multiple times that we blew it on the original rule set. We were ignorant. Worked because guys were pretty trust worthy.

    This new direction...........we're completely un-complicating it. How is length, width, weight complicated? Ever see what the gas guys are up against for tech if required? Yikes. haha How about an N1 brushed motor check? 4 pages in the book on how to do that.

    We can't do another list either. Change it every year through an act of congress? Then we would need parameters for a motor to be allowed ON to the list. Then we also have to prove that a motor on site is actually as manufactured. You couldn't have a list and then allow modifications to motors on the list. That's where we are now. List of motors we can't tech and prove are correct. I don't want to ever check a motor. That's my dream but if I had to.............I need to be able to prove it's correct. With a list that's subject to manufacturing whim it's impossible.

    example: Next time you see an AQ 2030......tell me if it's been re-wound. There could be two 2030's still in their original boxes side by side built on different dates with different thickness wires. Which one is the right one? They both are. Now go back and figure out if the another was re-wound. This is kinda what Smock has been saying to me for years. The ability to know beyond a doubt that a motor is as specified by the rule set didn't exist. We were taking it on faith. Faith never bit us on the butt as far as I know. The FE crowd is pretty respectable in my experience but it did allow a shadow of doubt to creep into the race results. Others looked at the results and said hmmmmmmm.

    Another thing I'm excited about is that NAMBA is trying to put together something based on the same parameters. Meaning that no matter what organizations events you attend you should have a legal setup. How cool will that be! None of this trying to figure out what's legal crap.
    Noisy person

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    I'm pretty comfortable with the current direction. It's all just data collection now. Length x width x weight = done

    I do know that the BOD has had this discussion. Apparently they were pretty well versed. There was a time the BOD members wouldn't have given us a thought. These days they're engaged though. Very cool times. They're on board with finding a viable setup. Something that not only works but will hold up for a while. So no worries guys. They'll get it. With some help from Mr. Ball. Just be patient. Honestly I'm very encouraged.
    Wonder if I'll have to call Mike by "yer lordship" or something. haha
    I was impressed with the discussion at the meeting. The BOD is indeed engaged!

    "Yer Lordship" lol Wonder if we can make that stick? You know, once he earns it...
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    I'm very happy with the direction this all seems to be heading.
    Not as SIMPLE as several would have liked but still a very techible rule set at diameter x length x weight.


    I honestly do feel for Darin and Terry as they have both been on the front lines for pretty much every single discussion on this issue. Them along with many others including myself on quit a few threads. We all thought we were close to a finish line and nothing left to do but race....

    And not to mention Doug and other moderators who have had to read pretty much every word on these discussions.

    We've had a bump in the road. But I really believe an important issue has been brought to the forefront and is in the works of being fixed.

    I have complete faith that Mr. Mike Ball and the IMPBA BOD will put together a good proposal that will be best for the class and hobby. The proposal will also be good enough to make it through a one year trial and membership vote.
    Probably get some votes from people basically says... "YES, please lord just make this discussion end!"

    And I, like Terry, hope NAMBA and its BOD will end up with a similar if not exact same rule set for their limited class.
    Have fun with that....

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    [IMPBA_HAT=ON]

    If "we" (IMPBA ) can come up with a set of weights to add to the dimensions, and a CLEAR and concise and MINIMALLY INVASIVE way to TECH it, AND we can END this discussion once and for all, then I'll be happy to dive in one more time and work with Ray and Dave N. and whoever else to get this equivalent rule through the NAMBA system. It seems like there are going to have to be additional words involved, which is always dangerous, but if someone smarter than me can figure all that out, we'd like nothing more than to have equivalent rules so we can all be one happy family. :)

    [/IMPBA_HAT]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    "Yer Lordship" lol Wonder if we can make that stick? You know, once he earns it...
    Back when I was appointed to the NAMBA chair thing, Dan Chase told me I was officially everybody's bitch.

    If he signs up I may go into the signups for the Nats and change his name.
    Noisy person

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