More limited motor discussion

[Doug Smock]

That was my point Darin.... Let them die a natural death, kill them off, manage something similar at a district or club level, or don't!.

After all these years we continue to look like a bunch of idiots and it's getting under my skin. It's ridiculous to the point of embarrassment!

We have 30 limited boats entered in a D13 GP race this month and the contestants don't know this discussion is taking place. That's success in my opinion! 9 years ,no noise, no protests, just folks having fun racing reasonably priced models without a National rule set.

I realize that NAMBA is in a different place, perhaps that discussion should take place in the NAMBA forum.

[T.S.Davis]

Sorry guys.....day job too. haha

On the wires Mike asked about........

The Proboat 1500 has crimps at the can where they adapt to stranded silver. You can/could/I did take the stranded wire and crimp off. Then soldered right to the wind. Pain in the a$$! Advantage? I don't think so. If anything I think I murdered that particular motor.

The Proboat 2000 motor has the same setup but no crimps. The strands are soldered to the windings. It's a poor design as that's the week point. You can try to solder right to the windings but they are so short that you can't get a connector in there. Tried this. Baked it.

The Promarine motor has stranded wires soldered to the windings and then a brass sleeve around the joint. Seems like a great idea but the solder they use is low temp and is the fail point. Same problem as the PB 2000. The winding is too short without the stranded wire. I was so sure this one would work. I tried butchering the end bell to fit the connectors where I wanted them. I even tried a copper extension. Barbecued 6 of these in the end. 3 modified. 3 stock.

I have no idea why any of the manufacturers thought an extra joint in the power delivery was a good thing. More resistance is more heat is more power loss is more heat is more resistance is more heat is more power loss is more heat.......annnndddd thermal nuclear melt down.

The leads on a TP are solid windings. No joints. However, most of them are super long unless you knew to order them short. You can clip them and re-solder but getting the enamel off the winding is a bastard. The TP wasn't the fastest thing we ran but man can you abuse these! Long life span even if you do evil things to them. Like post race saturation temps over 300 and still make the next heat. That motor is ruined but it still runs and didn't take a speedo with it. Go figure.

Point being, if you were looking to shave a couple grams to get legal with a particular motor that wouldn't ordinarily be you could trim the leads a bit.

I was riding the "what if" train all season by the way. Trying things to see if it made a difference. Seeing what COULD happen if this/that/the other. I was glad when I saw other guys trying things outside the box.

[longballlumber]

Mike, yer making a good case for it. Adding to that, how is that any different than tearing down a a gas motor? Nobody is doing that until someone stakes a claim. Isn't that the case? Showing my ignorance again.

I would need to review the rule book to find out EXACTLY how protests for the Gas/Nitro are processed, but YES the idea is the same.

[dethow]

Anything you add to a dimensional limitation, is simply being added to make people feel better. Any additions to the dimensional limitations have little value in actually regulating a class. The just complicate tech'ing and enforcement.

Actually… Mike might be on to something here. Steve (OSE) I had brought this weight issue up in another thread several weeks ago and before I had the 1415s in my hands.

At the time I had weight for a standard 70mm long 1415 at 292 grams. I assumed that may drop to about 280 grams with 8mm of the can and shaft cut off.

The next heaviest motor I had looked at was the TP3630 at 263 grams.

At that time, I didn’t have a Dyn2000kv in my hands and could only find data that showed it was 296 grams which included its stock jacket and connectors. I made some assumptions that without a jacket or connectors the Dyn2000 would probably be in the 265-gram area.

So I said that by the time we built in some tolerance allowance we’d probably have to set a max at 275-gram area. So my resolution was that I could probably get the 1415 close to that by shortening wires, taking as much off the shaft as possible as well as flat spot. I then I could even grid some thickness of front and end bells of the motor to lose a couple grams. Long story short (to late), I didn’t think it would help anything.

UNTIL NOW… Turns out that the Dyn2000kv motor actually weighs 252 grams without a jacket but with connector still on. So the heaviest motor (I’ve seen) that people have been running is the TP3630 at 263 grams. And it turns out my 1415s came back at 292 to 294 grams depending on wind. We could set a max at 270 grams and a 1415 would NEVER get there. Nor would anything like a 1415 motor.

It’s easy to measure my 1415s at 61.5mm long and see the copper is almost coming out the back end of it. I think it’d be the case with any motor weather made by a manufacture or in someone’s basement… If there is a protest made… Measure the motor first. If it fits, then look in the motor and if its stuffed with copper it would justify pulling it for a weight. From there, as Mike said, strip it as necessary until it gets under the max. If jacket, collet and connectors are off and it’s still over… then it’s illegal.

Based on numbers I’ve seen I think we could go with 37mm dia x 62mm long x 270 grams weight as maximum measurements and we’d be good to go. The 270 grams max would leave enough room that most motors would be under with connectors still on and maybe even jackets too. At the same time, I believe it’d keep anything which would have some dominance over the majority out of the class.

[dethow]

Anything you add to a dimensional limitation, is simply being added to make people feel better. Any additions to the dimensional limitations have little value in actually regulating a class. The just complicate tech'ing and enforcement.

So Darin, in a much shorter statement...

A weight max of 270 grams would for sure knock out the possibility of a 1415 motor. So it WOULD add value in actually regulating the class.

Would it complicate tech'ing and enforcement? Obviously... but at least a method of protesting and enforcement can be figured out and accomplished with as minimal necessity and invasion as possible. Complicate some... Yes. But not impossible by any means to tech and enforce.

You need to open up a little Darin. Understood it's not your ideal and it's a compromise, but it'd probably work.

[Darin Jordan]

Complicate some... Yes. But not impossible by any means to tech and enforce.

You need to open up a little Darin. Understood it's not your ideal and it's a compromise, but it'd probably work.

Sigh... I'm dragged back in...

OK, let me just illustrate the issue I have with weight.

National event, day is packed with heats, and heat 1 gets run. I stomp the field in P-LTD OPC Tunnel (not really that hypothetical, in reality... )

Someone protests me on the grounds of having a motor that weighs too much immediately following the heat.

I'm not forced to remove my motor, remove the coupler (precisely positioned to allow just the right amount of end-play in the cable), remove my water jacket (siliconed on? bummer right?), and likely unsolder my connectors, so that I can fight the protest.

I've now missed my next class, and am stuck with a boat that I now have to reassemble in order to try to make heat 2 of OPC Tunnel.

Now, imagine that for a rigger, or something where the motor is CRAMMED inside and isn't so easily removed.

Even if I win the protest, what is the protester out? $25.00? And he's still racing, now not having to compete against me for at least a heat. They surely aren't going to hold Heat 2 just to let me get my boat back in shape. Sounds like a winning strategy to me. You said it yourself: "cheaters are going to cheat."... That doesn't necessarily apply to just using a hotter motor. It's not a competitors strategy. Much easier than "team driving" and taking me out in turn 1.

Sorry, but no. It's a waste of time, in my opinion, and it more than "slightly" over-complicates things.

[T.S.Davis]

Pretty sure protests like that are not checked between heats Darin. Used to be for NAMBA it was by committee at the close of racing. I don't remember how IMPBA does at the moment. Has to be similar.

So you would still race and be tech'd after. If you fail you;re dq'd and everyone moves up. Not ideal but is the standard.

[TRUCKPULL]

Top three boats get teched at the end of the day.

Dia., length, and if it looks like it is packed with wire - weight.

Larry

[dethow]

Darin, I think you are being a little over dramatic, sorry... The sky isn't falling.

"a method of protesting and enforcement can be figured out and accomplished with as minimal necessity and invasion as possible"

IOW... if you are running a Dyn2000kv I don't think the system will allow for some A-Hole to cause you to miss a heat.
Also that motor wouldn't need everything removed to make 270g even if a CD did decide to have it pulled.
And I don't think a CD should pull a motor under protest unless it become obvious after size measurements and visual inspection of copper in the can that a motor needs to be pulled and weighed. Some judgements need to be made.
Some of those judgements will include not demanding a motor be pulled until a time in which it doesn't effect the racing of all individuals involved.

Most of the time, this will be a none issue. People with standard (well known) motors in there boats will probably never be protested.
Those that choice to have a manufacture make something weird or someone winds their own and everyone can see there is more copper in that can then most other "standard" motors... well you should expect that you may under go some protests. That's what you signed up for when you choose to pack a legal sized can with as much weight as you can.

Is a CD going to have me pull my 1412s for weight? Probably not because its only 55m long and there's no way there's enough copper in a 55mm can to put it over 270grams. Done.
Is a CD going to pull a TP3630 that measures 61mm long and has copper up to the end bell? Probably... but that will be done in a way as to not ruin anyone's race day.

[Darin Jordan]

Add weights... that's fine. Clubs can do whatever they want.

[dethow]

Sorry, but no. It's a waste of time, in my opinion, and it more than "slightly" over-complicates things.

So Darin... what do we do? What's your idea to get a 1415 type motor out but still be inclusive?
You said you are done... pulling the proposal from NAMBA and everyone else can figure it out.

But yet when a somewhat good idea is explored your using dramatic, sky is falling, illustations to say its a waste of time.

It accomplished the question. Gets the 1415 and similars out. Not a waste of time as I see it.

[dethow]

Add weights... that's fine. Clubs can do whatever they want.

Okay... thanks for opening up a LITTLE.
Now Mike should collect his data and let's build off this.

[Darin Jordan]

Pretty sure protests like that are not checked between heats Darin. Used to be for NAMBA it was by committee at the close of racing. I don't remember how IMPBA does at the moment. Has to be similar.

So you would still race and be tech'd after. If you fail you;re dq'd and everyone moves up. Not ideal but is the standard.

That's probably the intent, Terry, except that NAMBA's rules only address "engines". We run "motors"... oversight, due to us being the redheaded step-childs of the RC boating world, but still clear.

Not sure what IMPBA does. Either way, you are probably right.

Invasive protests can wait until the END of the 4-rounds... whatever.

OK, now I'm done. Don't feel like opening up my mind on this. It's closed. Length/Diameter is my thing. I'll stick with that. Unnecessary tear-downs, in my mind, are just that. Not worth it. I'll race P and Q.

[dethow]

Not worth it. I'll race P and Q.

Yeah... we did it. We got Darin out of limited/spec classes... we did it guys.

Should be obvious. Sorry you feel that way Darin.

You'll be missed. Hopefully we prove you wrong and you join us again someday.

[T.S.Davis]

Darin, you might be over thinking this. Take a breath. It'll be okay. hahaha Have a shmoke n' pancake.

Absolutely not tearing down top three finishers. If someone wants to fork out the dough to file three protests then fine. That is not nor should it be a CD decision IMO.

I really think the number of times that a protest was made would be minimal. If cheating was expected already (I read that in here somewhere).............why aren't there protests now? We've already established there are guys capable or re-winding a motor, swapping bearings, balancing rotors, whatever. It could have been done. Yet nobody has ever protested a motor to my knowledge since the old limited rules passed. Because most everyone knows the rule, complies, and we trust each other. 9 years of the class with rules that could be circumvented and nobody at a race though they were being cheated. Hmmmmmmm. Collective pat on the back fellas.

The frequency of guys tearing down setups I think would be nil even if we did have a weight. Not saying that is necessarily the answer or is entirely necessary but I'm listening.

[Doug Smock]

Mike is onto something David.
IMPBA-Protested equipment is allowed to run until such time it can be evaluated. The procedure can be found in section K Technical standards. I suggest everyone read it. You reallydon't want to get caught with a boat that doesn't fit the rules.

Bear with me a second. The guys running LSG (Large Scale Gas) classes with the "stock"/ Super Sport engines (Thunderboat, Crackerbox, Super Sport mono) know that if they set a record, are one of the top three at a nationals, or are protested, their engines will be torn down, inspected, and handed back to them in a box or bag. That's just the nature of the beast if you choose to run those classes! The Thunderboat and Super Sport classes are thriving. LSG 27 Crackerbox went to Super Sport engine rules and it saved the class. Just saying they voted in a rule change with a tear down tech procedure and saved the class.

Pulling a motor, possibly removing the jacket and or connectors is no big deal compared to the above. If you don't want to subject yourself to that, don't.
Tearing down the top three? Not really necessary IMO, but a host club could certainly do that if they wanted to.

[Doby]

Well Terry, you had better be prepared to tear down the top three finishers in any of the classes I'm entered in..because I get beat its definitely not because:

1) They drive better than me
2) They tweak the props better than me
3) They set up their boats better than me
4) They spend more of their free time trying things out

Nope ..its gotta be cheating.....

[Doug Smock]

9 years of the class with rules that could be circumvented and nobody at a race though they were being cheated. Hmmmmmmm. Collective pat on the back fellas.
The frequency of guys tearing down setups I think would be nil even if we did have a weight.

I agree.

And BTW, the "Amp Daddy" rewinds were legal motors. They met the "spec".

The Offshore boat with no number or sponsors was not!!

[Darin Jordan]

Well, crap... now I have to care... ;-)

20180215_171125.jpg

[Doug Smock]

Welcome to the IMPBA Darin!
@#$%#&@^^#%$%%

Lynne is quick isn't she?

[TheShaughnessy]

I thought spec motors burnt up all the time anyways so the motor should be installed in such a way that allows quick swaps. I think Tony can do a motor swap in 5 minutes, about the time it takes to run one gas heat. I'm sure all of us are capable of some addition/subtraction. Rather than removing the connectors why not just have 3 of the connectors in question on hand so they can be weighed , same can be said about the water jacket, wires, collet, etc. why would it all have to be removed? Motor with all the "accessories" weighs in at 270 g, water jacket etc. weigh in at 50 g ( these numbers are made up). Actual weight of motor = 220 g.

[Doug Smock]

No Michael if motors are burning up all the time there is something wrong with the set up or the mentality.

[Darin Jordan]

Exactly, Doug. Only motors I've ever burned were ones where I knew that risk existed!

[TheShaughnessy]

I forgot sarcasm doesn't transfer to the written word very well and it wasn't really the main point of my post. My point was that you don't need to strip the motor entirely to get a weight for it. I have 5 spec motors I bought in anticipation of burning motors (generation change of AQ2030 ring a bell?) I'm not burning motors, they are all still in my box.


Engine vs Motor is purely semantics , the definitions are nearly identical. That being the case, rules for protests can be found in section 16 on page 4 of the NAMBA rule book.(wrong organization, I know) To sum it up, even if protested you would be allowed to continue racing all 4 heats. However, the results would be pending inspection. As was stated earlier.

[Ken Haines]

Mike, yer making a good case for it. Adding to that, how is that any different than tearing down a a gas motor? Nobody is doing that until someone stakes a claim. Isn't that the case? Showing my ignorance again.

I think I agree.....I really like Mike Ball's idea here !
By simply adding some well researched weight numbers we can get to where we all want to be.
Darin's dimensions with the weight addition safe guarding the overstuffed cans like a Neu 1415 or others.
I will be racing Neu motors, but agree that the 1415 could ruin the class. I think Brian's data confirmed that fear.
I too realize that this thread has put a damper on the rule change, but better deal with now than after it is an actual rule.

I truely believe this now will turn out for the best. Just a simple addition of weight criteria and what will probably be
very few if any tear downs since everyone will know by the weights what will pass a tech or not. Certainly the
tear down would come only after an events final heat. I want to commend Mike for the idea and Dave for sticking his neck out here.
This to me is how we should solve our problems. Thanks for Brian Stepping in with the data to go along with the great lengths of
time and diligence that Darin put in to getting this thing 99.9% perfect. No one can think of everything and with what sounds
like a good weight number coming after Mike's research this should all work out very soon. Also want to thank Terry for
his guidance and thoughts on this.....realizing also that the timing of this must give Tom & Terry a huge headache worrying about
how this could effect their Nat's.

I have cancelled my 1415 orders and will be changing them to 1412's today.
As soon as we get the weight numbers we will be incorporating that into our District 3 FE Rules.
Congrats to all and good work here

[HTVboats]

Adding weight to the mix in my opinion will ruin this class. Size is very easy and can pretty much be done visually, and officially with a caliper. Now add a scale and the officials who have to enforce this rule after running an event and what club wants to add this headache to their race. Pull your motor and desolder your connectors. Not! Do not make rules your not prepared to enforce at any level.
I can tell you I have no interest in promoting this class after this discussion.
Mic

[dethow]

Great post, Ken. Thank you.

I agree you with regarding the pressure on Terry, Tom and the MMEU club regarding this issue. And with that I want it to be known that I have no issue if as a club we choose to blacklist these cut down 1415 motors out of our 2018 club races and the upcoming Nats event.

I don’t want a dark cloud hanging over our club or this event. I think it’s premature to enact the additional weight rule thing and start trying to figure out what the weight should be and how protests are conducted. I think at this point, the simple thing to do is just simply say the cut down 1415s will not be allowed.

I hope Terry, Tom and I can have a brief conversation on this prior to our upcoming MMEU meeting.

Thanks to everyone for the conversation and from here I’m out on this issue. I’ll now be awaiting Mike Ball to collect his data and guide us (IMPBA) forward. Congratulations to Mike on being the new FE Director for IMPBA. I hope that was okay for that to be put out there, but oh well.

[dethow]

Adding weight to the mix in my opinion will ruin this class. Size is very easy and can pretty much be done visually, and officially with a caliper. Now add a scale and the officials who have to enforce this rule after running an event and what club wants to add this headache to their race. Pull your motor and desolder your connectors. Not!
I can tell you I have no interest in promoting this class after this discussion.
Mic

I'm sorry but this is truly the last thing I'll say on this.

I don't think posts like this are productive. No...! the addition of weight is not ideal but then how do we get motors like the 1415 and similars out of the class if we only use dimensions?

I understand not liking the weight... then bring an idea if you have one.
Because if nothing is done, the 1415 and similars will ruin this class.

Like Terry said... I doubt there will be many if ANY protests.
And even if made they will be much less invasive then what gas/nitro guys deal with.

BTW... probably 95% of the motors which will be used are going to fit within the max weight with connectors still on. Many will fit with connectors and collet still on. The TP3630 weighs 263g bare. Most motors currently being used/considered for the class are in the 240g to 255g range. I predict the weight limit will probably be in the area of 270g. The cut down 1415s weigh 292g. So they will be out and any other similar custom motors will be knocked out. Custom motors will be allowed by the rules, but you will need to be under the max weight limit and yes, if you choose to go custom you MAY undergo some protests. If you're using a known manufacture motor, you'll never see a protest. I can say that with almost certainty.

[HTVboats]

How do you keep the 1415 out. Don't allow altered motors. Even the motor list that rarely gets updated works. Make a decision on length 60, 61.3, 62 and go with it. I have raced in the mid west and southeast for close to 40 years and run races over the years. If you think for a minute there won't be protests your naïve. Again if you want to see arguments and hard feelings add a format that encourages protests. The intent of spec was to keep things simple and inexpensive to attract new racers.
Mic

[dethow]

How do you keep the 1415 out. Don't allow altered motors.

Alteration from what? After Manufacture? My 1415 motors are NOT modified after manufactured. Now what?
And now start defining manufacture. Is someone in their basement a manufacture? If a certain number of motors had to be produced, how do we get those numbers? These thoughts have been discussed already. Doesn't work. More complicated, harder to define and more interpretations.

Don't allow altered motors? So now we'll see protests over bearings, re-winds and many... many other things that can be "altered" on a stock manufactured motor.

Sorry.. nice try but that issue has been beat down. Doesn't work to just say no alteration. The protests would be even worse and more complicated then a simple weight.