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Thread: More limited motor discussion

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by longballlumber View Post

    In an effort to keep this thread clean, please send me a PM with this information.

    Thanks
    Mike
    When I'm back at my computer, Mike, I'll send you the table I put together with all the tested motors. I'm sure I have it buried in my files somewhere.
    Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
    "Self-proclaimed skill-less leader in the hobby."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    From what Brian Buass says these 1415s are robust motors which he has used and won with in full P at 2014 Nationals. Sounds like something to be concerned about, coming from a well respected racer.
    Brian could win with any one of the motors. His driving skills and PROP skills are what separate him from the rest.

    This is a dumb argument that has been beaten to death. I won P Spec Cat last year in Michigan with a Geico cat and a TP 3630. It wasn't the motor, it was my driving and a bit of luck.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    When I'm back at my computer, Mike, I'll send you the table I put together with all the tested motors. I'm sure I have it buried in my files somewhere.
    Again I thank you for all that hard work letting us know what are/were the most efficient motors going.
    Nortavlag Bulc

  4. #64
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    Brian will beat you in a turn. Not with a motor. It's like running with Twaits or Newland. You need about 8mph extra to get around the outside of them.
    Noisy person

  5. #65
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    This is going to throw so much fuel on this fire and piss off a couple people, but I think this fixes everything.

    Any motor with maximum measurements of 37mm diameter x 62mm long which are currently or have ever been utilized in an off the shelf ‘RTR’ or ‘ARTR’ boat which fit the boat size limits of the class.
    i.)The motor should be unmodified except for flat spot on shaft, method of water cooling and method of connection to the esc.
    ii.) Any service or repairs necessary should be completed with OEM replacement parts. If OEM parts are unavailable, motor should be replaced.


    This will allow all past, current and future offerings from off the shelf boats. If a manufacture like AQ falls of the face of the earth another will take its place. Three years ago we didn’t have Promarine. I think that if this rule was implemented now, the Proboat/Dynamite motor from the UL-19 and the Promarine/SSS motor offered in several of their boats would be the most popular choices. Along with the Dynamite 1500kv of course.

    If and when something new comes out, that may become the choice. But these motors out of RTR boats are not currently ridiculously priced at $80+/-, and they will grow with inflation. We can fix in price limits without having to set a number. IOW… ten years from now a motor in a RTR boat may cost $150. The rule will still allow those motors without alteration.

    We won’t have TP, Leopard, Raider, Turnigy, Neu, or Lehner in the mix unless someone starts putting them in RTR boats. Don't see anyone putting Neu or Lehner in RTR boats, but if the others are ever added it just makes things better and offers more choice.
    We will have a lot more options then we have now and those options will change over time with technology and manufactures changes.

    With that... I think I'm done of the subject. I've said my piece and now the powers that be can figure out whats best for the organizations and class. Sorry for throwing a monkey wrench is all this, but if I didn't do this now someone would have done it eventually. ie... stuffed as much copper as possible in a 62mm can.
    Have fun with that....

  6. #66
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    Does anyone have one of these 2000kv Dynamite's they can weigh without the cooling jacket. The published weight seems heavy for only 56mm long

    https://www.horizonhobby.com/3650-6-...000kv-dynm3831

    Thanks
    Mike

  7. #67
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    I have one in the box at the house.
    Noisy person

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    ii.) Any service or repairs necessary should be completed with OEM replacement parts. If OEM parts are unavailable, motor should be replaced.[/B]
    Prove it how? Does a tech look at the bearings and then call Proboat on race day to find out if the bearing are still available?

    Simpler is better.
    Noisy person

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post

    Motors like the TP3630-1950 were all slightly over the 60mm.
    Darin
    I have a new never used TP3630-1950 sitting here that I just measured - 57.7mm long

    Larry
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Prove it how? Does a tech look at the bearings and then call Proboat on race day to find out if the bearing are still available?

    Simpler is better.
    Same honor system we currently operate under.
    May someone cheat? Yes.
    Just like people may currently be cheating.
    Are those people dominating currently because of bearings? Probably not.

    Will we know if someone cheats, no. But we can deter using non OEM parts by having the verbiage in the rules.

    Simple is not better. Simple is going to allow motors in that you will either own or chase and no RTR boat with stock motor will be able to compete.
    Again... I don't know what these 1415 motors are going to do. I'm basing that statement on Brian Buaas's opinion of the motors.
    Have fun with that....

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRUCKPULL View Post
    Darin
    I have a new never used TP3630-1950 sitting here that I just measured - 57.7mm long

    Larry
    Yes, same here Larry.
    TP has made these motors in many varying lengths.
    Have fun with that....

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by longballlumber View Post
    Does anyone have one of these 2000kv Dynamite's they can weigh without the cooling jacket. The published weight seems heavy for only 56mm long

    https://www.horizonhobby.com/3650-6-...000kv-dynm3831

    Thanks
    Mike
    The one I have weighs 252 grams without the jacket but with the stock 5.5 connectors still on.
    Mine is 56.2mm long.

    And so everyone knows.. I've already given Mike all the data I put into a spread sheet on many motors. I hadn't weighed and measured my Dynamite motor until now.
    Have fun with that....

  13. #73
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    A Promarine Phantom was lapping my one of a kind, wire drive, carbon fiber, Pursuit all season. I ran 4 different motors I think. Chris still beat my by over 1000 points. It was not close.

    Ty finished 1450 points ahead of the Neu powered LSH with a hodge podge of motors. Once we stopped experimenting and stuck with one cheep motor he was tough to catch.

    I think yer getting ahead of yourself Dave. Just a tic. Not get'n on ya. Honest. Put the 1415 on the water and race it. See where we're at. If something needs to happen it will be clear. It's premature to assume it will dominate. We thought the same thing with the 1412's Kevin was running. Didn't happen. Respectable and long lasting? Yep. Fer sure. Todd put a Lehner in his 10th scale. Didn't win either.

    BTW There aren't many guys that are going to buy an RTR and be very competitive. Not because the boat can't keep up necessarily. Because there's a learning curve. The point is to get them out there. Chris did well with his RTR but that guy really can drive.
    Noisy person

  14. #74
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    Can I make an observation as a complete organized racing novice: This has got to suck the life out of this hobby for so many.

    I would love to be involved in racing, but it's not readily available near me. If I were involved, this stuff, while probably unavoidable, just throws a big wet blanket on my enthusiasm level, and I would imagine others. I feel for those trying to make headway and the countless opposition they must face for every small move, good or bad. Good effing luck boys.
    Vac-U-Tug Jr (13mph)

  15. #75
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    Reliving this conversation again is sucking my desire to race this class right out of me. It's part if why I said screw it and just took last season off. Is it ever going to be resolved?

    With David's suggestion, we're right back at what we were trying to avoid: untechable, convaluted rules with lots of gray area and are impossible to ever truly enforce.

    There is no need for all that. The right physical size restriction and this discussion never takes place again.

    If 37mm x 62mm isn't it, then let's figure out what is, move forward, and go racing.

    I still contend that, based on previous data, 36.3mm x 61.2mm is in the ballpark. If 61mm or 60.5 or ??? Is more reasonable ( meaning there are actually motors available that equate in performance and fit that size ), then good, let's go with that.

    It should be noted that, even given their slightly longer lengths, the 4-Pole motors still didn't outperform the P-LTD 6-pole motors during bench tests. They got warmer under the same loads.
    Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
    "Self-proclaimed skill-less leader in the hobby."

  16. #76
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    Ryan this is the quote of the week that came in a chain of emails. "Forums, the best and worst thing to ever happen to model boat racing." It rings true at times, gas, nitro, and FE.

    But I need to tell you that beyond the forums at race sites all over the country you will never find a better group of guys. Of course like with anything, you have "that guy" but they are few.
    TOY BOAT RACER
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    Of course like with anything, you have "that guy" but they are few.
    Snickering.... ;-)
    Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
    "Self-proclaimed skill-less leader in the hobby."

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Again... I don't know what these 1415 motors are going to do. I'm basing that statement on Brian Buaas's opinion of the motors.
    That's a pretty fair opinion to consider. In talking with him last night, the potential was pretty clear.
    Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
    "Self-proclaimed skill-less leader in the hobby."

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Put the 1415 on the water and race it. See where we're at. If something needs to happen it will be clear. It's premature to assume it will dominate. We thought the same thing with the 1412's Kevin was running. Didn't happen. Respectable and long lasting? Yep. Fer sure. Todd put a Lehner in his 10th scale. Didn't win either.
    Agreed on needing to get it one the water and see what happens. No argument there. My discussion here was in no way meant to try and bench talk this into a change. It was simply to say we may have an issue here and we need to pump the brakes on the proposals. The opinion comes from actually holding this motor, feeling its weight and seeing how jam packed that 62mm can is.

    I never got the feeling from the 1412s that it was going to dominate anything once I had it in my possession. When I ordered them I was getty and thought they would be a big deal. Once I had them in my hands and saw there was no more copper/rotor in them and only weighed 242 grams... I knew they would probably be reliable but not dominate anything.

    You can ask Kevin, I was already talking about the possibility of the 1415s at last years winter meetings, while ice was on the ponds and the 1412s had not been in a boat yet.

    Bottom line we'll see what happens. I just have a gut feeling which I didn't have about the 1412s and that feeling has been somewhat confirmed by Brian Buaas's experience with the motor. The 1415 motor is basically equal to other 70mm motors. Don't think it takes rocket science to figure out that it will most likely out preform 60mm motors.
    And again... yes its all about driving being able to set up a boat. You may not be worried about me catching Tyler's boat. That extra mm in length isn't going to be enough for ME to catch him. You are probably right... don't deny that. But what if Mike Ball, Ken Haines, Brian Buaas, Darin Jordan, or many others have these motors? Then what? Or lets say we put this 1415 in Tyler's boat. Why should someone like me or many others in our club bother racing? We'll never win unless we buy the same motor and still pray he makes a mistake.
    Have fun with that....

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    The one I have weighs 252 grams without the jacket but with the stock 5.5 connectors still on.
    Mine is 56.2mm long.

    And so everyone knows.. I've already given Mike all the data I put into a spread sheet on many motors. I hadn't weighed and measured my Dynamite motor until now.
    Thanks Dave, that is right in the ball park of what I would have expected.

  21. #81
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    What if - What if - What if

    Lets race with what we got , see how it goes. and go from there.
    If there is a big problem we know to fix it.

    Larry
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    Ryan this is the quote of the week that came in a chain of emails. "Forums, the best and worst thing to ever happen to model boat racing." It rings true at times, gas, nitro, and FE.

    But I need to tell you that beyond the forums at race sites all over the country you will never find a better group of guys. Of course like with anything, you have "that guy" but they are few.
    I have been quietly reading these posts and think they are good and may solve any slight imperfections that may have been overlooked. Since talking
    to Dave Howarth and others by phone I believe this is getting addressed and looked at properly and encourage the continued rational discussions.

    Yes.....and totally agree with Doug's attached Quote:
    " But I need to tell you that beyond the forums at race sites all over the country you will never find a better group of guys"
    Team HRB USA / Pro Marine
    NEU Motors / Rico Racing/ Castle Creations
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  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    With David's suggestion, we're right back at what we were trying to avoid: untechable, convaluted rules with lots of gray area and are impossible to ever truly enforce.
    Don't think we'd be that far from where we are currently in p-limited rules... except we'd be opening the motor options up more. Wasn't that the original goal? To get MORE options? I don't think we need to necessarily write a rule that provides ALL options.

    We'd be leaving it open enough to grow with manufactures and inflation. And we'd be keeping it closed enough to not allow overly dominant and/or expensive motors in the mix.

    I personally don't see how its untechable... We know if a motor has been put in a RTR boat.
    The rule would be no more convalated then now. Only difference is that instead of having a static list we let the list grow and shrink on its own. If a popular motor becomes unavailable; another will take its place. They always do. There would be no more gray areas and things that are impossible to enforce than we have now.

    Cheaters are going to cheat. An effort to write such a simple/open rule that makes is less likely to need to cheat, only opens the door to dominant motors that would be legal. IOW, it sounds like we’re trying to stop cheating by just letting everyone do whatever they want within the dimensions. Problem is that method is going to cut out newbies and RTR options.

    As I thought more about this… I thought, okay we pull back to 60mm. Now someone calls Neu and says, can you put a little less copper/steel in a 1415 and fit into a 60mm can? Maybe they develop a new motor called the 1414. It will have the 60mm can stuffed, weight 285 grams and costs $250. This again will create a situation where you either own it or chase it. Put that motor in Tyler Davis’s boat and a UL-19 will not complete, no matter who set it up and is driving it. That’s not right.

    Or worse yet... someone builds that crammed 60mm motor themselves and its not available for anyone else to purchase. With simple/easy dimension limits only, there is no rule being broke. That person builds a few of these, gives then to his club people and they all go to a nats event and dominate.
    What ifs... What ifs... I know.
    But a simple rules makes that possible. That's not right.
    Have fun with that....

  24. #84
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    I didn't a little research. We've been unable to move forward on limited motors and have been talking about it extensively since 2014.

    .......analysis paralysis.
    Noisy person

  25. #85
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    Any motor with maximum measurements of 37mm diameter x 62mm long which are currently or have ever been utilized in an off the shelf ‘RTR’ or ‘ARTR’ boat which fit the boat size limits of the class.
    i.)The motor should be unmodified except for flat spot on shaft, method of water cooling and method of connection to the esc.
    ii.) Any service or repairs necessary should be completed with OEM replacement parts. If OEM parts are unavailable, motor should be replaced.


    Doesn't fix everything but fixes the need for MORE options and doesn't allow things to be so open that the class gets destroyed by people LEGALLY pushing the limits of the simple dimensions rule.


    Terry,
    Your Dynamite 2000kv motor would be in.
    Tom's Dynamite 1500kv motor would be in.
    Chris's SSS 2030kv motor would be in.
    All other previously utilized p-limited motors would be in.
    Past, Current and Future RTR boats that fit the boat and motor size limits will be able to hit the water without having to change out a motor.

    Only other $80 motors being blocked out have proven to be no more dependable or competitive then the ones listed above. So why do we NEED those as choices?

    And we'd get rid of the Neu and/or Lehner options which are being perceived by many as a threat to the class. Right or wrong that perception exists and there is resistance. Even if we find a way to cut out the 1415, I guarantee someone will be butt hurt when a Neu 1412 beats them. Won't be the motor... we both know that. But some will not hear that and will think they only got beat because 'so' and 'so' spent $200 on a motor that shouldn't be allowed.
    Last edited by dethow; 02-14-2018 at 02:52 PM.
    Have fun with that....

  26. #86
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    I liked where Dave was headed with the possibility of a 37 x 60mm revision or something like that on the rule......makes sense to me,
    however not so kean on this last idea of them having to be available or sold otherwise as models in RTR boats.
    Seems a little too restrictive to me. I love the Neu motors, but do agreed that the Neu 1415's may rock the boat.
    Just my 2 cents
    Team HRB USA / Pro Marine
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  27. #87
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    Can someone tell me why 62mm? And not the specs of the original limited motors?

    If we stayed within those old constraints, we wouldn't be having any of these discussions.
    Steven Vaccaro

    Where Racing on a Budget is a Reality!

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Haines View Post
    I liked where Dave was headed with the possibility of a 37 x 60mm revision or something like that on the rule......makes sense to me,
    however not so kean on this last idea of them having to be available or sold otherwise as models in RTR boats.
    Seems a little too restrictive to me. I love the Neu motors, but do agreed that the Neu 1415's may rock the boat.
    Just my 2 cents
    I can understand the point of view...

    But I feel my idea would be less restrictive then the small motor list we've had for years. And we already have many classes which are less restrictive.
    I thought the point of a limited/spec class is to restrict, and create some parity with low cost options.
    I think simple size rules are opening things too much and as Brian Buass said "Let the arms race begin".

    Do we get the Neu 1412s? No...
    Do we get the TP3630s? No...
    But we would get a lot more options then we currently have.
    So we'd be somewhere in the middle. Less restrictive then current but not so open that creative use of the rule screws up the class.
    Last edited by dethow; 02-14-2018 at 04:52 PM.
    Have fun with that....

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Vaccaro View Post
    Can someone tell me why 62mm? And not the specs of the original limited motors?

    If we stayed within those old constraints, we wouldn't be having any of these discussions.
    Going with 36.3mm x 56.0mm size constraints wouldn't really add many other options. Based on things I've seen the only motors that would add is the SSS 3656 and my cut down Neu 1412s. Several other good options don't necessary have any more copper/steel in the can they are just putting them in slightly longer cans in the 58mm to 61mm range.
    Have fun with that....

  30. #90
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    If the spec isn't at least 36.3mm x 60mm (60.2 for tolerance ), then this is a lost exercise.

    The numbers were chosen to be INCLUSIVE, not so restrictive that nothing would fit.

    The 36x50 motors are a substantial drop off. I don't consider those an option.
    Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
    "Self-proclaimed skill-less leader in the hobby."

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