More limited motor discussion

[dethow]

But to be honest, Darin. My offer is off the table.
You obviously have no respect for me so why would I send you one of my motors.

You say "I've read enough to know that I don't really care either way." What a joke...

[Darin Jordan]

Wait, wait, wait... what did I say or do to you to elicit that reaction? Are you against these rules? If so, then I'm confused as to what's going on here.

I've been here in full support of you being able to run and sell your motors.

Confused by this reaction.

[Darin Jordan]

By "I don't care either way", I'm saying that, even if I'm wrong about the 1415x62mm deal, it doesn't change my opinion of these rules.

[dethow]

Wait, wait, wait... what did I say or do to you to elicit that reaction? Are you against these rules? If so, then I'm confused as to what's going on here.

I've been here in full support of you being able to run and sell your motors.

Confused by this reaction.

Darin you wouldn't be confused if you'd read anything I said earlier in this thread.

I am in full support of the dimension only rules. I just think that 62mm is too long and allows enough space for larger motors to be modified and fit.
I've proven it... I'm holding one in my hand.

If the 1415 motor I will be running this year shows dominance, people who want to compete in the limited/spec classes will have to spend the $250 to compete. Or maybe become a machinist and cut down other cheaper 70mm motors.
There will be many existing and no new racers willing to spend that money, so participation will drop. Who wants to race if they have no chance at winning.
I, myself, will probably not dominate with these 1415 motors because I don't know how to set up a boat or drive as well as several other more experienced individuals.

This question will probably be answers at this years IMPBA Nats as myself and a much more experienced racer will be running these motors.

I'm just throwing it out there that the breaks should be pumps on the rule proposals until we see what these motors do.

And you apparently know it all and don't care. That's what elicited my reaction.

[dethow]

I've been here in full support of you being able to run and sell your motors.

And BTW... I don't need your support to be ABLE to run and sell my motors. The 1412s I was selling are well within the MMEU rules being utilized at the IMPBA Nats. And MY 1415 motors (which are not for sale), also fully fit the rules. No support from you needed.

Only looking for some support to see that these classes are not destroyed. And you still say you don't care either way... even if you are wrong.
What? You don't care because you are so good at setting up a boat that you'll whip me off the pond anyway? Well what happens when someone as good as you decided to buy these 1415s? Will you care then?

[dethow]

So sick of this discussion... We'll see what happens this year.
Just the fact that you openly don't care says your opinions on the motor rules should no longer be considered.
I don't care who you THINK you are.

Ridiculous!

[Doug Smock]

Ok are we about done here?
Keep it on the surface please sirs!

Thanks in advance

[Darin Jordan]

Now your just making up things you think I think.

The 62mm length wasn't my idea. My limit was 61.3mm, based off the largest of the currently legal P-LTD motors. You know, the ones I actually tested.

On that front, we agree. But I'm not making these rules, so I'm just one voice.

As for reading EVERY word of what you wrote, I'm sorry, you are right, I didn't. I've been following this from my tiny phone screen while shuttling my kids around this evening, so yeah, I scanned, nor read, most of this.

My only point in all of this is what I've said though: rules need to be enforceable. Whether it's 37x62 or 36.2x61.3, I'll take it if it'll end these debates.

End of Line...

[dethow]

Whether it's 37x62 or 36.2x61.3, I'll take it if it'll end these debates

That I fully agree with.
No debates needed. We'll see what happen is year with the 1415 motors.
Only point of anything here was to say pump the breaks on 37mm x 62mm.
Only change I'm proposing if these 1415 motors dominate is reducing to 37mm x 60mm.

What motor measured at 61.3mm?
My 1415s measure 61.5mm. I could probably sand an extra 0.2mm off to fit that if we absolutely can't go any smaller then 61.3mm.
And that's not good.... or MAY not be good. We'll see.

I have these motors... and I'll be at a lose if they get knocked off. But as I've said to several, the hobby and this race class is more important then MY wallet.
I don't want to see the gap between limited/spec and full P closed. And I don't want newbies with off the shelf boats or those with limited funds unable to compete.

Yes... Doug. I'm done. Sorry to all.
Just gets frustrating when I spend time writing out what I've found and what problem may come from that. And a big voice in the matter says he just doesn't care either way without even reading what was said.

[Doug Smock]

I get it David. Sure do!

Time to give it a rest. We'll talk about it at the end of the year like we have for the last 9 or so.lol

We can't loose sight that at the end of the day we are grown men, having fun, racing TOY BOATS for bowling trophies.

Did you get my address so you can send me a 1415 for the Spring Nats??

[Darin Jordan]

Looking through my original suggestions, I think the limits I proposed were actually 36.3 x 61.2mm.

And my "I don't really cares" are simply my response to all of this. I'm tired of the discussion and arguments, and just want this settled. I've invested a LOT financially and in life energy testing and providing data, and am ready for this to be settled.

I think you'd have to be a fool to think that i, of all people, really "don't care". If getting an actual proposal out there that the majority can agree with means giving up my fight for 36.3 x 61.2mm, and I have to settle on what is proposed, then I guess it's more precise to say that I don't care to FIGHT about it any more. Just needs to be settled.

[dethow]

Will do, Doug...
I've done what I intended. Provided a warning of what's possible within the proposed rules.
Racing toy boats for many unwilling to spend the $$$ will become less fun. Constant losing is no fun and participation will go down.

Enough talk, we'll see what this season brings.
Nothing is for sure. Just saying pump the breaks.

[dethow]

I think the limits I proposed were actually 36.3 x 61.2mm.

Can I ask what motor drove the 61.2mm or 61.3mm limit thought?
None of the motors I looked at specs for or personally measured were over 60mm. Most were in the 55 to 58mm range.

[Darin Jordan]

I'll have to go back and look, but I think it was the 2000KV Dynamite.

[Darin Jordan]

Keep in mind, these were ACTUAL measurements. Not advertised, which I found to be less than accurate.

[dethow]

Agreed. There are many variations to what the manufactures specs say and what they deliver.
Example being TP3630. Their spec says 58mm, OSE website says 61mm, I had several at 57.5mm and I heard there were some floating around which were over 62mm long.

And that's why I wrote earlier that we should go 60mm long but allow some sort of CD discretion to allow obvious well know motors which had a minor manufacturing difference. I don't think we should open the door to a 1415 sized motor to accommodate manufactures who can't get their sh*t together and build a consistent size that meets their own published specs.

[raptor347]

Just to throw fuel on the fire. There will be a significant performance advantage to the 1415 and shortened tp3640. That P hydro I ran at the 2014 nats was running a 2400kV 1415, and we remember how that ended up.

I measured the bits and pieces. A 1415 and a TP3640 can be made to fit the dimensions. Let the arms race begin.

One advantage to the 1415 and 3640 motors, they are seriously robust. Going to need a real 200 amp esc (think 200 continuous) to get the most out of them.

[dethow]

I measured the bits and pieces. A 1415 and a TP3640 can be made to fit the dimensions.

Hey Brian, thanks for adding your experience on the subject.

I know nothing of the TP3640. Do you think that and/or the 1415 could be made to fit a 60mm can?

From what I see out of the 1415s I have in hand... they are jammed at the rear end. Maybe a little room up front to move everything more forward, but I don't know. I'm not a motor builder or machinist. I just asked the question of a manufacture and they pulled it off.

[Darin Jordan]

Went out a measured.

The existing motors all fit under 60mm.

I believe the 61.2 was for 1 version of the DYNAMITE 2000, and also to fit the TP3630-1950 that Wisconsin was using.

[raptor347]

The 3640 won't fit in a 60mm can. 1515 maybe, you'd might have to sacrifice some copper to shorten up the end windings. Neu is a master of maxing out what can be stuffed in a limited space.

Keeping parity in Spec classes is never easy to pull off.

[Darin Jordan]

Should be noted that the 1 version of Dynamite 2000 is no longer made, and was never on the list anyhow.

[jaike5]

Well that was uptight .... lets move on to something else like the rocket powered ejector seat on the drivers stand for Ray, just a heads up for Darin who will be pitting for Ray!!
Cheers, Jay.

[photohoward1]

How about we all concentrate on building better boats and specifically driving better. Motors don't win races.

[T.S.Davis]

Dave, I think Darin is actually sharing with people that don't get it. Dims......done. He and I both get hand wringing texts and such from outside of this thread. I've even gotten the typical "Did you read the rules before going IMPBA?!?! Maybe you shoulda before hand. What gives you the right? Why wasn't I consulted?" Not all at once of course and not from a single source. Same kind of thing we got back in 2002 with NAMBA. Then it was "who do you think you are?" Can be frustrating.

Along that line, I just gotta share a text I got on this from I guy I think of as a legend. He was a legend before I owned a decent boat IMO. Not naming him. He reads but isn't willing to debate on here. Sometimes I get the funniest damned texts from him. "I could give everybody in your Club a 1415 and the same guys are still going to win. 1415 isn't going to make a so-so driver a winner"

Hitting a start, holding a line, staying out of wash, recognizing when to let off the trigger because yer out of shape, not putting yourself in harms way, setting a guy up to pass him coming out of 4 on the last lap, not letting a guy set you up to BE passed coming out of 4. Motor can't do any of that for us.

Like I said, none of this is going to be etched in stone any time soon. We have time to find out if we blew it. I don't think we have BTW.

Okay, now Todd said something to me Sunday that cracked me up. "A peanut is neither a pea nor a nut. Discuss" Racers will get it.

[T.S.Davis]

BTW Until Steve starts building a good 6 pole motor it wont matter how big it is.

[longballlumber]

I would like to collect some weight data associated to the 37X62 motor limits. Anyone willing to weigh the motors they have (minus cooling jacket and collet) would be appreciated. The following is what I would be looking for;

Manufacturer
Model and KV
Actual Measured Weight noting if the value includes connectors or not

The more data points the better even if it’s the exact same motor multiple times.

In an effort to keep this thread clean, please send me a PM with this information.

Thanks
Mike

[rayzerdesigns]

These motors have been run in MMEU for a season and no speed advantage was observed. The main reason to buy a motor like this is reliability. One of our members burned a couple $80 motors this season while in the same boat these motors are still going.

But yes... Darin is 100% right. The sky is not falling and based on our club's examination, there are other motors which showed some slight dominance in terms of speed. But those racers/boats have always been some of our fastest so maybe that's not even true that it was the motors.

Size limits has proven itself out to be good as far as what we've seen and what I've heard from other clubs doing some testing.
Things will continue to get tested out this year and we'll see where it goes.

But people... the only way to see if there is a problem is to explore the limits and see what happens. Please stop making assumptions just because a motor costs more. The $55 Dynamite 1500kv has been doing some domination for years if you know how to setup a boat for it.

I’ve been running the dynamite 1500s for over 2 years now without a single failure and anyone that has raced with me will say my boats aren’t slow.. I just don’t like the idea of spending 200$ on a spec motor.. in my eyes defeats the purpose..

[rayzerdesigns]

Hey Brian, thanks for adding your experience on the subject.

I know nothing of the TP3640. Do you think that and/or the 1415 could be made to fit a 60mm can?

From what I see out of the 1415s I have in hand... they are jammed at the rear end. Maybe a little room up front to move everything more forward, but I don't know. I'm not a motor builder or machinist. I just asked the question of a manufacture and they pulled it off.

There are already 1415s out there that have been made and are being used just so u knoe

[dethow]

"I could give everybody in your Club a 1415 and the same guys are still going to win. 1415 isn't going to make a so-so driver a winner"

Don't disagree with that at all Terry.

Problem with the statement thou is that no one is just going to hand EVERYBODY in our club a 1415 motor to race. There will be 3 or 4 guys willing to spend the money and the rest will stop racing if they can't compete. Besides the fact that there will no longer be any off the shelf boats with a motor to compete with a 1415. You've now lost many existing racers and forget getting anyone new getting involved. Is that where we want to go?

I really don't get the big deal being made here. You and Darin have been fighting this like I'm proposing that the idea of dims just be completely taken off the table. That's not the case. I'm only suggesting that IF these 1415s turn out then we should pull the dims back to 37mm x 60mm.

From what Brian Buass says these 1415s are robust motors which he has used and won with in full P at 2014 Nationals. Sounds like something to be concerned about, coming from a well respected racer.

[Darin Jordan]

David, after yesterday, and my IMs to you, I think you should be clear on my position here and what I was trying to relay. I think it also should be clear now that we basically agree regarding the proposed dimensions.

It's clear that 62mm takes things too far, or at least "out of the intended scope" of the class.

The reason we determined 60mm may not work is because there simply aren't many motors out there, OTHER than the current spec motors, that fit.

The ones that did were the 36x50 sized, which are a substantial DECREASE in performance.

Motors like the TP3630-1950 were all slightly over the 60mm.

So where do you draw that line? I measured, I recommended, I tried. Two big clubs, lots of ideas, compromises were had, here we are.

Where do we go now? The proposal is already in the NAMBA pipeline, but can be pulled. Probably wise at this point. Perhaps hit the brakes at take another look? Won't affect the clubs. They can continue to run what the want. Probably better to do that than to blow the class out of scope.

Heard suggestions to add a weight component. Uuugh... back to awkward, difficult and impractical to tech rules. Dimensions are enough, I'd think, if they are the right ones. Seems we're just discussing a few tenths of mm here. I'll bet we can refine it and get it right.