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Thread: More limited motor discussion

  1. #1

    Default More limited motor discussion

    MOVED OUT OF THE FOR SALE FORUM
    Quote Originally Posted by bzubee View Post
    There are actually no rules that cover P limited / Spec class in IMPBA it is left up to the clubs.
    That's correct. Rules are in the works and being proposed.
    As stated, these motors fit the MMEU/IMPBA Spec Class dimension rules. These are the rules that are being utilized at this years' IMPBA FE Nationals.
    And if you want to be ahead of the curve these are also the rules being proposed in both IMPBA and NAMBA for approval/vote.

    Current for either... NO
    Future for both... WE'LL SEE
    Current for MMEU/IMPBA 2018 FE Nationals... YES
    Last edited by Doug Smock; 02-13-2018 at 12:50 PM. Reason: MOVED POSTS
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  2. #2

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    Would be interesting to test one.. they are still a 4 pole motor..you can only fit so much into a can size.. not saying they won’t be good.. but this is the main reason we didn’t want to do a size limit.. a 200$ Motor has no place in spec racing in my opinion..

  3. #3

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    This thread has caused an interesting storm of "the sky is falling" e-mails and texts.

    People... "Neu" is NOT an abbreviation for "magic bullet". 37mm x 62mm... you'll only get SO much copper and steel inside that can, regardless of the label or brand.

    Perhaps take a step back and RELAX. Buy your motors, get your boats setup, and learn to drive. Then your 90% of the way there.

    When you get good with props, you'll start approaching that remaining 10%.

    The sky is NOT falling...

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayzerdesigns View Post
    ... a 200$ Motor has no place in spec racing in my opinion..
    And, they likely won't have a place for long, once people realize you can be competitive with a motor that costs half that.

  5. #5

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    These motors have been run in MMEU for a season and no speed advantage was observed. The main reason to buy a motor like this is reliability. One of our members burned a couple $80 motors this season while in the same boat these motors are still going.

    But yes... Darin is 100% right. The sky is not falling and based on our club's examination, there are other motors which showed some slight dominance in terms of speed. But those racers/boats have always been some of our fastest so maybe that's not even true that it was the motors.

    Size limits has proven itself out to be good as far as what we've seen and what I've heard from other clubs doing some testing.
    Things will continue to get tested out this year and we'll see where it goes.

    But people... the only way to see if there is a problem is to explore the limits and see what happens. Please stop making assumptions just because a motor costs more. The $55 Dynamite 1500kv has been doing some domination for years if you know how to setup a boat for it.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  6. #6

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    "you'll only get SO much copper and steel inside that can" The new catch phrase reminiscent of "The motor is the fuse".
    That worked out well didn't it? Just sayin...

    Watts no longer = power, and mass is over rated. Your AQ, Dynamite, Himax,and Proboat motors will still be competitive! No body needs to re tool!

    ^^^ Makes sense if you don't think about it.^^^
    Last edited by Doug Smock; 02-13-2018 at 01:08 PM.
    TOY BOAT RACER
    Sponsored by Smock Racing
    IMPBA National Records Director
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

  7. #7

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    I believe the Neu 1412 motors have proven themselves to NOT be a factor. Other than reliability...
    And that's mostly because there is no more copper in there then there is any other current limited/spec legal motor or any other $80 motor which fits the 37mm x 62mm dimension rule being considered. The 1412 motor fits in a 55.2mm can. That’s it folks.

    Now moving past the 1412… It is possible to get a Neu 1415 into a 62mm can. I have several of them in my possession. And I’ll tell you that can is stuffed with copper and weighs in at just over 290 grams. I think it has potential to be a beast. I’m not the only one who will have this motor this upcoming season. At least one other person has now placed an order with Neu.

    A couple of us are reaching into our pockets to see where this rules can be pushed to and see what happens. The 1412 has already proved to be a non-factor, like I said. This season we’ll see what role a 1415 stuffed into a 62mm can holds.

    I’ve had this discussion with the other person getting some 1415s already. My gut says the 1415s will prove some dominance and the size rule will have to be pulled back slightly to 37mm x 60mm. This small change would still be inclusive to everything currently legal along with other $80 motors available. And even the Neu 1412 for those that want to burn a hole in their pocket for no real results.
    This change would knock out the possibility of the Neu 1415, the Lehner 1940 and the Lehner 1930 with fan. The Lehner 1930 without fan is only 54mm long and will probably prove to be no threat like the Neu 1412.
    I included the Lehner 1940 because without a fan its specs at 64mm long. Like the Neu 1415, someone may be able have Lehner build it at 62mm or cut it down themselves.

    The only desirable motor that starts to come into question at 60mm long is the TP3630. They have been manufacturing this motor in varying lengths. You can see OSE shows specs of 61mm while TP’s own spec sheet shows them at 58mm long. I personally had some at 57.5mm long and I think I heard that some people got a some which were over 62mm long and they had to be sent back.
    That’s TPs problem… They need to get there sh*t together and build their motors to their spec at 58mm long.

    This is all being put out there because I truly do care about the class and the hobby. I think the Neu 1415 motor is going to close the gap between limited/spec and full P. I also think that, if they are a motor you are either going to own or chase we are going to lose new people and existing people that don’t want to spend $250 on a motor. That’s not good.
    We will see how these 1415s play out with some actual testing and racing this year. But I wanted to start to lay the ground work for the thought on needing to slow down on the 37mm x 62mm dimensions.
    And for those that want to cry and whine. Please stop. There are some of us out buying these things to actually race and test. Bench talk and assumptions has gotten everyone nowhere over the past several years. If you have such a strong feeling on something that you want to attempt to hold back progress… Then go buy one and prove it.

    I’d like to invite Darin to bench test one of my 1415 motors for comparison against the others he’s already done. Mike Ball is probably going to do some actual race testing with GPS and data logging this spring.

    Let’s all quit the bench talk , start testing and make decisions which are smart for the class. But with that said… the individuals not spending their time and/or money need to set back, stop the crying and listen.
    Last edited by dethow; 02-13-2018 at 03:19 PM.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  8. #8

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    Oops, all of the testing should have been done before a rule set was proposed. I guess I can have an opinion since I have time & money invested??
    TOY BOAT RACER
    Sponsored by Smock Racing
    IMPBA National Records Director
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    Oops, all of the testing should have been done before a rule set was proposed. I guess I can have an opinion since I have time & money invested??
    I haven't heard of any rule set put out for vote yet. That's why I said we need to put the breaks on this rule change. IOW... slow down the proposal and wait on putting it out for vote until we can see if these 1415s are going to destroy the class.

    And I knew that would be taking the wrong way. Everyone's opinion matters...
    The point is that assumptions have been getting us all no where. There are some who have done no testing and have already made up there mind that a dimension rule is bad. Those assumptions are not based on facts because those that have actually been doing testing are saying there been no advantages found. Thus, putting out statements like that are just an effort to hold back progress for a reason that are unknown. Darin has done bench testing and sees no obvious advantages in the motors which would be available. A couple clubs have been doing some racing and records what motors are winning. Again... No obvious advantages seen.

    This 1415 issue is new information that took time to get to. After measuring and asking questions it finally became a reality that this can be done with a 1415 motor. Now we need some time to test and check the results of that.

    Doug... this Neu and Lehner motor thing has been a hot topic since this motor discussion came up. Have you gotten any Neu or Lehner motors to run/test? If you have, thank you. Could you share your findings.

    I apologize if I offended you Doug or anyone else. Not my intent.
    Obviously lots of people have time and money invested. Just not a lot investing into pushing the limits of the rules to see what happens when someone does that. The nay sayers of the rule should be glad that the limits are being tested and that we're not just looking at $80 motors and waiting until the rule is voted in and then a couple years down the road someone crams at 70mm motor in a 62mm can.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  10. #10

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    I'd rather lose lots of money I spent on these 1415 motors then lose racers.
    My $250 1415 motors are no good with no one to race against.
    Our MMEU club would probably lose at least half its limited/spec class racers if there's not a chance to win without spending $250 on a motor.

    Do we know that's the case yet. Absolutely NOT!
    These 1415 may result in nothing. Unlikely... but you never know.

    All I'm trying to do here is say... put the breaks on a vote and lets see what happens when the limits of the rule are pushed. The result MAY be that the proposed limits need to be pulled back slightly to 60mm long. I know there should be a manufacturing tolerance for the 60mm long motors but the manufactures just need to get there stuff right.
    Maybe build in a 1mm tolerance at CD discretion so if a motor is built slightly large the CD can look and see its obviously a TP 3630 or a SSS 3660, it was just slightly off in manufacturing. But if someone brings an obvious 1415 or any other custom built motor that measures over 60mm... the CD can dis-allow it.

    Otherwise I am a COMPLETE advocate for the new dimension rule. Just don't want to see the class destroyed for what could be a simple change before its put in the books.
    Last edited by dethow; 02-13-2018 at 04:34 PM.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    Your AQ, Dynamite, Himax,and Proboat motors will still be competitive! No body needs to re tool!

    ^^^ Makes sense if you don't think about it.^^^
    I did retool actually. After testing and witnessing the testing on a bunch of motors I dumped most everything in favor of the cheepo Dynamite motors. Doesn't get hot and will out run all the Neu's I've seen thus far. In truth I would be shocked if Dave's fresh 1415's can catch Tyler with the Dynamite. I've been wrong before though. Plus Doug.........how can you retool for classes that don't exist? bazzing!

    As far as the rule set I just razzed Doug about........ this isn't going to become an organizational rule set any time soon. IMPBA wont even look at it until later this year. Likely after the nats. Then it will receive the typical one year trial run even though we already did that. So right now we're looking at maybe fall of 2019 for a vote at the very earliest. I don't know of anyone actively campaigning against it but it's just not priority and that's how it's done.

    NAMBA FE will be trapped in the same sort of loop for at least another year on it too so don't hurt yer selves wringing yer hands over exactly what's what at this point. Figure out what's okay where you plan to race and run that. For MMEU and the NATS there is a size limit and that's all.

    By the time either organization responds to what we need there will be some new battery that none of us ever even dreamed of to monkey up everything. It's a problem for FE with both organizations. It/they/we/the orgs (the orgs. are us remember) can't move forward as fast as the tech changes. Then analysis paralysis sets in and we wring our hands for three years.
    glue sniffer

  12. #12

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    David, we're good, no problem here at all!

    No I haven't ordered or done any Neu or Lehner motor testing for these classes. The District voted against the dimension rule for the 2018 Grand Prix series. The Spring Nats. I say bring it, and lets what happens. If I get smoked (so to speak) that will be a clue. I'll have time to make changes if it looks like I can make it up there for the Nats./ Cup.

    "Plus Doug.........how can you retool for classes that don't exist"?
    It's extremely easy when they don't exist! Ya just do it if ya need to!!
    Last edited by Doug Smock; 02-13-2018 at 05:16 PM. Reason: peeing up a rope again...lol
    TOY BOAT RACER
    Sponsored by Smock Racing
    IMPBA National Records Director
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

  13. #13

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    Just a thought for rules. Motors must be manufactured with a minimum production of 500 units and available through normal retail outlets. Insure motors can be purchased by all racers. Remember rules can be adjusted from time to time to level competition. NASCAR adapts rules every year and have become one of the most successful organizations in motorsports.
    Mic

    Mic Halbrehder
    IMPBA 8656
    NAMBA 1414

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    In truth I would be shocked if Dave's fresh 1415's can catch Tyler with the Dynamite. I've been wrong before though.
    In my hands... you are probably right. I'm not good at setting up a boat and I can't drive.

    I thought the same way when these motors were on order. Once I got them in my hands, felt the weight and saw how stuffed they were. I thought of other guys that actually know what they're doing getting a hold of these motors...
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by HTVboats View Post
    Just a thought for rules. Motors must be manufactured with a minimum production of 500 units and available through normal retail outlets.
    How do we know how many were manufactured? And define "normal retail outlets".
    Doubt 500 of the OSE Raider motors were produced. They are out??? That's not right...
    And buying direct from Neu is a normal retail outlet. Anyone can buy from them...

    Can't bench talk this... Need to just see what the 1415s do and figure out a way to get them out (if necessary) without over complicating things. And I think the simple way is to pull back to 37mm x 60mm. That's it... that simple.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  16. #16

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    If they could make the rule 37.6mm diameter I could run my favorite $30, 2200Kv outrunner.

    What's with the outrunner discrimination??? lol.... Seriously, Let me just run it once in LSH against a $200 custom motor....

    PPPplease??

    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    This thread has caused an interesting storm of "the sky is falling" e-mails and texts.

    People... "Neu" is NOT an abbreviation for "magic bullet". 37mm x 62mm... you'll only get SO much copper and steel inside that can, regardless of the label or brand.

    Perhaps take a step back and RELAX. Buy your motors, get your boats setup, and learn to drive. Then your 90% of the way there.

    When you get good with props, you'll start approaching that remaining 10%.

    The sky is NOT falling...

    >
    >

  17. #17

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    Direct from NEU and TP are retail outlets. OSE Raider is a rebadge and I am sure more than 500 Flycolor 150's were made. Moot point as ESC's not an issue. I threw out 500 as a number, could be 250 or 1000 if you rather. The idea is to eliminate custom shops or a manufacturer making a small batch of "special" units. A manufacturer or distributor could submit a production number to qualify their motor. If Castle said they made XXXX it would be reasonable. Any fudging of numbers could disqualify a manufacturer from competition. Just ideas.
    Mic

    Mic Halbrehder
    IMPBA 8656
    NAMBA 1414

  18. #18

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    So what manufacturer is going to supply their actual sale numbers...its no-one's business.

    Also, as it has been stated NUMEROUS times..you have to be able to drive your boat to win...no use adding unnecessary limitation that can't be verified.

  19. #19

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    The manufacturer that wants sales and qualify for the class will be happy to submit. Were talking a number of one size unit produced not corporate profits.
    Mic

    Mic Halbrehder
    IMPBA 8656
    NAMBA 1414

  20. #20

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    Because RC boats is such a huge market for the manufacturers? LOL
    Its not verifiable..just adds more confusion...How would the production numbers be verified? I could say 4000, you say 1000? Just imagine the useless arguments on race day.

    KISS...The Michigan bozos have it right.

    Also, Dave has stated above that they run different motors in their club with no real difference...granted it is a relatively small sample size, but its the nearest data that could be quoted as fact based on actual testing.

  21. #21

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    There is no way you are stuffing all the guts, rotor and all, of a 1415, into a 62mm can.

    All the rest of this is BS Hyperbole.

    I'm not even sure why Doug cares, he's been against this class format in general from the start, so nothing has changed there.

    We have 35+ members in our club who have been pushing these rules in practice for more than a season, and they like it.

    Others have as well and do as well.

    Also, stop putting words in my typing. I NEVER said people wouldn't have to re-tool. I did, if fact, state that the performance of the class, over the next year or two, MIGHT change, but that, for the immediate future, our existing setups would remain competitive. And, guess what, I'm 100% correct.

    As for the rest, this is really the ONLY reasonable and sustainable way for this class to exist. It will be literally NO different in implementation than the other classes, with the exception that there is an actual, real, physical limitation to how much power you can bring to the table.

    In the next season or two, that will sort itself out and the balance will be realized.

    Any other way of doing this is either a nightmare of lists, or is completely untechable.

    So freaking just relax. We've got this. The sky is still up there. The class will continue to run. Racers will still be racers. And talent is going to continue to outrun money.

  22. #22

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    "I'm not even sure why Doug cares." Really? LMAO!
    TOY BOAT RACER
    Sponsored by Smock Racing
    IMPBA National Records Director
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

  23. #23

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    Doug doesn't care about anything...saw him kicking a puppy the other day!

  24. #24

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    If it can't be teched, it can't be a rule.

    It's really that simple.

    Outside of what the proposal outlines, every other suggestion here may make people feel good, but they are completely unenforceable and untechable.

    This is a real, measurable, enforceable limitation.

    Not sure what else needs to be said.

  25. #25

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    ...............cs rap.jpg

  26. #26

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    Oops, double post...

  27. #27

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    KISS method - Keep it simple stupid.

    Diameter and Length - Lets race

    Larry
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    There is no way you are stuffing all the guts, rotor and all, of a 1415, into a 62mm can.
    Hey Darin, nice to know you actually read anything I have to say.
    There is a way... It's been done... I own them... they are in my boats...
    And another racer, a trusted national racer placed an order today.

    I have offered to send you one for bench testing... but you don't read what I have to say.
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    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  29. #29

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    I've read enough to know that I don't really care either way. If it fits the dimensions, it's legal. Eventually, it may even become mainstream, common, the way everyone does it.

    And it'll be tech-able, non-controversial, and simply accepted. All without pages of arguing online and without motor-lists...

  30. #30

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    Darin!!!!!!!!!!! The only "F"ing thing I'm saying should be considered is pulling the dimensions back to 37mm x 60mm.

    What is wrong with you man? You don't read a thing I have to say and then you just assume my issues are making things unteachable.

    If you aren't worried about the Neu 1415 fitting into a 62mm can then why don't we just allow 70mm motors? There are probably many other 70mm motors with room to be cut down to 62mm.

    This is seriously irresponsible that you won't even look at this motor until its to late.
    Reducing the can size to 60mm will eliminate this issue. And it'll be tech-able, non-controversial, and simply accepted. All without pages of arguing online and without motor-lists...
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

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