Fast Electric Addict!
Ken, the only 6-Pole motors I know of are the current list, plus the SSS/Pro Marine Motor. May be more out there, but these are the ones I know about.Originally Posted by Ken Haines
As for the 4-Pole vs. 6, my guess is that the Neu was pulling 20-30 Amps more to turn that same prop. With the 4-Poles, you need to unload them a bit and let them spin.
Don't feel "dumb"... only reason I know this is because I saw it first-hand on the test bench.
Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
"Self-proclaimed skill-less leader in the hobby."
Wired Racing
Actually this is specifically why a weight limit is being discussed and examined. So that full on P power does NOT make its way into the class. Otherwise, from what MMEU has seen along with what we’ve heard elsewhere, opening up the class to more motor options is not going to hurt the limited/spec classes or the full P class. Speeds are not drastically different from what they were.
I think that feeling is running through most of us. Not only are we getting somewhere, but I think the end result is going to be very inclusive and long lasting. And although not as easy to tech as simple dimensions only... there will still be a black and white techable rule in place that will be far less invasive then what several other groups are put through.
Group hugs!
Have fun with that....
Moderator
LOL Terry, I know, I know.. Just saying. Rally around Mike. If it doesn't pan out it's past time to drive on. These discussions have turned more potential racers away than a National rule set would ever bring to the pond. The MMEU proved you can offer these classes without a National rule set. Thanks for that! Yes let's everyone focus on what Mike is doing and put this to bed one way or the other!!
Last edited by Doug Smock; 02-21-2018 at 12:32 PM. Reason: away....... phones.....lol
MODEL BOAT RACER
IMPBA President
District 13 Director 2011- present
IMPBA National Records Director 2009-2019
IMPBA 19887L CD
NAMBA 1169
Fast Electric Addict!
GO, MIKE, GO!!!
Darin E. Jordan - Renton, WA
"Self-proclaimed skill-less leader in the hobby."
Fast Electric Addict!
This is happening in 2018 and the class wasn’t in the rule book. What makes you think it can’t or won’t happen in the future?
I am not saying it can’t happen, but I am willing to stick my neck out there and suggest this would be the exception rather than the rule. Joe new guy goes to the hobby shop, plops down some money, and walks out with a new toy only to find OUT later people actually race them. We have current IMPBA members that probably don’t even read the rule book. Hell, I need to read it again. Suggesting that Joe new guy is going to read the rule book, and magically show up at a local pond ready to race is a pretty big leap.
The IMPBA has NEVER had a P-limited or P-Spec rule set in the national rule book. I don’t think that has kept anyone away from the hobby. If they want to race boats they are going to figure out how to race boats.
Sorry Terry, but N Stock and N Super Stock is still active at the record trials level. As a matter of fact, it was being run just a few weeks ago.
Besides, what new guy is going to read 4 pages on brushed motors and WANT to get into that class. 4 pages of rules makes me want to avoid that class! LOLI believe there are provisions in the rules that allow ROAR approved motors. If that is the case, brushless motors are approved. I would need to read up to be 100% sure.
N is the still active, as well, at the record trials level. Heck, you and Ty were running N class for records just 3 years(?) ago. I would need to double check, but I think there is a club that is actively running some sort of N class.
With this type of activity how do we just abolish the class along with records associated with it?
I find some irony in this statement. The MMEU club is running more “Full P” classes than it ever has.
I think we all agree that any “Spec” and or “Limited” WILL NOT be allowed for records. The BOD has already shown the ability to approve an FE Nats allowing the host club to include a “Spec” or “Limited” power source for a national award. With those two items addressed, what other benefits does the IMPBA get by adding a Spec or Limited Rule Set?
Fast Electric Addict!
Thought about typing this with no capitals so it didn't sound like I was yelling in any way. Cuz I aint.
Encouraging guys to build 2s powered boats so they can do 6 to 10 laps per year isn't going to help guys get involved in racing. Time trials is a very tiny niche piece of racing. I checked. It was 2015 that Ty ran N sport. So yes 3 years ago. The fact that I personally own multiple N boats is not an indication that the class is active and flourishing. I'm a super freak. My collection isn't normal. Haines picked up boats from the fastest 2s stock guy in the world and handed them off to Fede while he learns. That's not normal either. It's also not an indication that the class is "active". We were barely able to field heats at the nationals which is supposed to be the "big" race of the year.
The BOD allowed spec classes at a nats because the numbers don't lie. Without them "allowing" it there would be no FE nats for 2018. Pretty sure they knew that.
MMEU is up to one P class for points. We did try to run P mono for exhibition at 4 races. In truth I discouraged guys when P mono was first talked about. I didn't think many of our drivers could handle it. They did better than I thought they would though. By the end of the season we weren't getting enough entries for it. We used to run Q for points but Q was too hairy on our puddle. I don't think we've ever had more than one full P class for points.
The point of having a national rule set is that clubs, both new and old, would have a point of reference if/when they decide to form some FE heats. Then when the new guy shows up with that boat he walked out of the hobby shop with.........maybe......there is a chance............. he'll find that a club is running what he bought. Then if/when racers decide to see what's going on in the next town they might maybe find........."hey them guys run the same crap we run". Then if/when those same guys inquire about traveling to race like the a Spring nats............."wonder what they run there? What? Same stuff? Heck ya! We should go."
My mindset in suggesting that 2s should go away and basically be replaced by spec is formation of heats. N does not make heats. Spec does. It's really that simple. Make N a trials only thing like S or something.
I totally do not agree with spec not being allowed for records. Why not? Back when we were struggling with the tech aspect I agreed but length x width x weight isn't sounding too horrible to check. Especially the way Mike described it. We just established we're going to keep all the N classes forever because they're run at trials one or two times per year. But........the most popular FE power level since the battery...............no records. Can't understand that.
I'm so confused by the opposition to these classes at the national level. They're so clearly the most contested FE classes in NAMBA. It aint close either. They're also the most popular FE classes in IMPBA. IMPBA events run under rules they don't actually have. We have to check every time we travel what rules they'll run. What am I missing?
Noisy person
Moderator
The BOD disagrees..... End of story... I'm out fellas. Behave yourselves..
MODEL BOAT RACER
IMPBA President
District 13 Director 2011- present
IMPBA National Records Director 2009-2019
IMPBA 19887L CD
NAMBA 1169
Fast Electric Addict!
With what Doug?
Noisy person
Greased Weasel
I just read those links and while there is a fair few references to fuses I didnt see any results from trying one which isnt surprising as they have some obvious drawbacks, and the only reference to electronic power or energy limiters was by me, 3 years ago, when energy limiters were still just a concept. At this point 3 years down the line, they have peen prototyped, tested, been produced by 3 different manufacturers, and their production units have been tested and have proven themselves and the system well enough to have made the rules in many individual countries, and in Naviga.
An electronic limiter is a very different beast to a fuse:
They don't add huge amounts of resistance to your circuit.
They aren't being pushed to near melting point.
The purchase price is higher, but you dont need to replace one every time you push the limits.
They come either with silicone wires for your connectors or conectors presoldered and dont need holders, they can easily be wired in like dataloggers (which they essentially are).
They wont just cut of motor power causing rear end collisions, they all have a pass-through to the ESC so they can ramp down the power over time, all the curently available energy limiters have a selectable ramp down time.
2/3 of the energy limiters can ramp down to a selectable baseline, so if you want people to have for example 10% power for steerage so they can keep inside the course on a windy day you can do that.
The energy limiters have a reactivation timer so that eg 90 seconds after it ramps down your power, it gives you power back, enabling you to drive back in, avoiding the need for rescue.
The energy limiters all have 4 different selectable power levels, by default they will come with the Naviga legal levels, but those limits are subject to change so they are programable either at the factory on purchase or via a box available to racemasters, so you could have different ones for P ltd, P ltd Offshore, a cheaper N2 ltd (to replace N2 that P ltd seems to have killed off), and maybe Q ltd for the newer 6s RTRs with 40mm cans that cant make it in full Q.
Paul Upton-Taylor, Greased Weasel Racing.
Greased Weasel
Blah blah, I could waffle on for hours, but probably shouldn't.
Paul Upton-Taylor, Greased Weasel Racing.
Wired Racing
I probably know way too little to voice an opinion on this, but I will anyway.
What Terry is saying makes sense regarding a national rule set for a “spec” class and having records for them. They are very popular and WILL get the largest draw.
And I can’t understand the thought process behind just letting local clubs have their own “spec” rules and having IMPBA approve each clubs take on “spec” prior to a national event such as the one MMEU is holding this year.
This just adds unnecessary costs to visiting racers and an advantage to the host club racers. If each club has their own rules, traveling racers may have to keep changing their motors to accommodate different rules. And the host club will have the advantage due to having had much more time spent running and setting up their boats to those motors.
I don’t know the answer to this, but I’d assume a goal of the IMPBA BODs should be to make the club desirable so that more clubs/members are drawn in.
IF IMPBA does nothing and IF NAMBA moves forward with changes to the limited class and let’s assume they go with the diameter x length x weight… they will have a simple national rule set that is run at local and national levels along with records for all the ensuing classes from those rulers. Result will be that NAMBA will be the more desirable association for FE racing. No doubt about it.
Have fun with that....
Fast Electric Addict!
BTW The BOD didn't disagree with everything that was proposed by MMEU.
2s for ever and ever amen.
1/8 scale motor list stays.
1/8 registration stays.
Twins will still require a single battery source same as before. So two batteries get harnessed to be one and then get split to two esc.
Stuff that stuck.....sort of....
Requiring FE boats to be on plane at 30 seconds will have a 20 second option. Currently if you are not moving at the 30 second mark you did not start.
On spec, my understanding is that guys were actually well versed on it but in the end felt it needed more work. The weight thing seems a good addition to me. For the record, I was totally against that but Mike has done a pretty good job convincing me. Although I'm still not certain it's actually something IMPBA wants.
Noisy person
Fast Electric Addict!
We really are working our way to a new class, it will just include what we've all been running for the last 8-10 years.
I didn't agree with P-ltd for records in NAMBA because there was no way to truly tech the motors. I'd be happy if they were deleted from the record book under the current rules, and I own several of them.
Spec motors at time trials are absolutely the fuse, no choice, no argument. Better off spending the money on a real motor and running an open class for TT's (sound familiar Ken, how many N stock motors?).
Had a good talk with Mike (your FE Lordship), we're heading in a good direction.
Brian "Snowman" Buaas
Team Castle Creations
NAMBA FE Chairman
Fast Electric Addict!
Why only electric for this requirement? The Gassers in Atlanta would crawl to the line at idle. Drove me crazy. They call it the Cajun Crawl. (for another thread I guess)
Wired Racing
Taking this statement and trying to say this is why IMPBA should not allow a limited/spec class to have records is unfair. Brian is saying he didn’t agree with the NAMBA P-ltd records because can’t tech the motors. True and fair statement. But that statement doesn’t apply if we end up with a measurements and weight rule. There WOULD be a way to truly tech the motors. It’d be easier and less invasive to tech then some gas/nitro classes… but yet they have rules and records.
This feels like discrimination… Just sayin’
Have fun with that....
Wired Racing
99% of the potential racers have no idea these discussions are taking place. And I’d wager that 90% of actual current racers also have no idea these discussions are taking place.
Not everyone hates these discussions as much as you do Doug. Do we want them to be done? Of course… but that doesn’t mean we hate them. We’re trying to fix flaws and get to a better place. A BETTER place… not a PERFECT place. Perfect doesn’t exist.
I’m sure there are some opinions of flaws in the gas/nitro class rules. Does that mean IMPBA shouldn’t have national rules and records for them? Because that’s where we are basically at. There is a possible rule set on the table that is 100% techable and it’s starting to sound like IMPBA is going to shoot it down and defiantly won’t allow records because there will be some opinions of flaws.
Sorry… but literally the only thing MMEU has proven is that there is a way to use a dominant motor within the simple dimensions rule. And what are the clubs going to do??? Just say no Neu 1415 motors allowed? Then someone cuts down a Lehner 1940, then a TP3640, and so on… until all the clubs have a long list of excluded motors. Great, until someone says the hell with them I’ll build my own. Then what? Do we say no custom built motors? Talk about not techable… We might as well just have a list of motors which are allowed. Sound familiar and flawed?
That’s what MMEU has proven. No offense intended to MMEU guys. I’m the a-hole in MMEU who shined light on this.
Have fun with that....
Fast Electric Addict!
Dave,
For what it's worth, I'm certainly not upset that you flipped the light switch. IMPBA has the advantage of not having a flawed (but very successful) rule set on the books. By advantage I mean they can be a more agile when it comes to fine tuning the class. That being said, we're moving forward to get the best class we can.
For the record, my issue with stock/spec FE classes for time trials is the nature of those event's. They are by definition, event's where you REALLY push equipment. When played at the bleeding edge, running spec/stock classes is the most efficient way to turn money into smoke. I've seen an awful lot of P-ltd charcoal produced chasing those records at NAMBA events. Much of the reputation for poor reliability came out of that. But who am I to tell people how to spend their money. If it ever did get opened up for records, I know just the motor to build.
Everybody,
Considering this is the class we throw all our newbie racers in (not to be confused with "beginners class", there's nothing beginner about it), there's a line of thought that dropping the performance a bit wouldn't be the worst possible outcome. Before everyone screams at me, a quick history refresher, consider the following: If you look at the performance we're getting from out current spec boats and compare it to what we were getting out of full P systems 10 years ago, would you be shocked to know our current spec boats are faster? The thought of handing a new racer a hot P mono was pretty scary back then. I believe it was 2002 (might be 2000) when the first FE boat broke 80 mph, with 32 NiMH cells (40 odd volts), a big Schulze esc and a big lehner motor. I can do that today with my heat race spec rigger with only a prop change and a set of slippery sponsons. The same hull goes 140mph with a full P system. Point is, we've lost perspective on the kind of performance we should expect.
My first experiment with spec power was to drop the original SV-27 motor and esc into my then record holding N2 rigger (Pags still races that hull as a P-ltd). It ran 54 mph, this was 2007 and it was seriously cool for a dirt cheap brushless system that was very reliable. Then comes the infamous UL-1 motor and up goes the performance. My current spec rigger will heat race right at 62 mph. Yes, hulls and props have changed (point your fingers at me if you must, I probably deserve it), but does the extra 8 mph make the racing better? For those that were there, how good was the racing in LSH at 42 mph and LSO at 37?
We're going fast enough in the spec classes now that it can be intimidating to new racers and far more difficult than many veteran racers want to admit. There are many reasons the open class participation has decreased over the last 10 years. Expense is one, but entry cost for capable equipment has come down significantly. I'd argue that the raw performance gains are a big part of it, even a really good P or Q hydro is a serious handful. Check the vids Tyler posted from Valdosta Speed Week, that's his Q heat race boat.
I truly hate the statement "in the spirit of" when applied to racing (scale guys drive me nuts with that one), but in this case it applies. We've all enjoyed what has been a pretty level playing field in the spec class. The big goal in all this is to maintain that while opening up the motor options.
The point of this rant is to get people to consider what holding the power level where it is will do for the future of the class (and FE in general). In the long run, our default entry class will be healthier for it, and still be just as much fun.
OK, body armor strapped on under flame suit. I'm ready!!!
Brian "Snowman" Buaas
Team Castle Creations
NAMBA FE Chairman
Fast Electric Addict!
Ahhh, at last an island of sanity in a sea of insanity! You hit the nail right on the head Bryan. It will be interesting to see if others see the wisdom in your words. These classes should be about driving and setup skills, not who can squirrel around with a motor the best...
Fast Electric Addict!
You will never get the USA to conform to the NWO of electric boat racing. Never I say!!!!
Nortavlag Bulc
KANADA RULES!
About the motor being used as the "fuse"...when has it ever not been?
Scenario:
Stock Motley Crew Cat...
1)Must go faster in order to be "competitive"...install an AQ 2030 (or whatever the motor dejour is)..after-all, more kv always equals more speed...that helps.
2) Must go faster...install a BIG prop...that helps. (nothing in the rules says I can't)
3) Must go faster.. add 500 amp esc to handle load of big prop...that helps. (nothing in the rules says I can't)
4) Must go faster...buy 400C batteries...that helps.(nothing in the rules says I can't)
5) Must go faster...carve out the "heavy" tub and add carbon fiber to save weight...that helps (nothing in the rules says I can't)
6) Prove I'm now faster...place boat on water, hit the throttle and pray!
Surprise...guess what the only thing that blow is...THE MOTOR!
I can't for the life of me figure out why the motor blew???????
Solution..
1) Start a thread on the internet about the motor dejour's apparent unreliability.
2) Sit back and watch the sheep on the internet jump on the bandwagon, well, for the simple reason that its on the internet and everyone knows, if its on the net..its gotta be true!
Actual Truth: The motor is ALWAYS the fuse as people will ALWAYS try and get the most out of it. As its the only thing that is "spec'd" and can't be changed it will always be considered the fuse.
Want a simple solution to burning up motors?
Look in the mirror.
Grand River Marine Modellers
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/...ne%20modellers
Fast Electric Addict!
Come on John. We're not going to revisit the motor failures.
There actually was an issue with AQ motors. Different lots had different thickness wires. That's a real thing.
Proboat actually did discontinue motors and/or replace them with new versions requiring rule changes.
The rule set actually did cater to two manufacturers and kept others out. Not deliberately but definitely resulted in them being denied. Other motors could be "allowed" at an event but that didn't make them legal forever and ever.
Those two sources absolutely do make decisions based one $$$ and not on our silly rules. (That wont change either)
Nobody actually could prove a motor was correct if asked to.
We blew it. It worked for a while but it was never quite right. Created havoc in the ranks too. Sure, we have done a ton of racing but.......... bad feelings exited too. Stuff I mentioned. Even made some guys get out of FE.
This new approach is smarter in my opinion.
Even still, there are guys so pissed that we are trying to make this work that they're talking about leaving FE. I'm completely lost on that. I've been through some rule dances over the years. All most all of them in fact. Getting out over this one? Make no sense to me. How about the intro of brushless motors? Throw away your whole fleet technology anyone? NiMh vs Nicd was a hoot.
Noisy person
Greased Weasel
I did not suggest you conform, I just sugested an alternative way of doing things that may or may not be better for you. If you noticed I linked to an American made power limiter that may well be suitable for the type of sprint racing you do, and not any of the energy limiters that are more suitable of the endurance racing we do (or the offshore racing that you do for that matter), I only mentioned them as they are a proven alternative if the power limiter can't be made to work in boats.You will never get the USA to conform to the NWO of electric boat racing. Never I say!!!!
Oh and we've been racing FE in one form or another since well before Churchill coined the phrase NWO, or HG Wells re-appropriated it, maybe OWO would be more appropriate.
PB-Clyde.jpg
Paul Upton-Taylor, Greased Weasel Racing.
Fast Electric Addict!
Paul, this power limiter idea makes sense to me. But to the guys currently at the top in these limited classes, this would be very bad news. They like their advantage! But to me, this seems like the fair way to level the playing field. If the class had these, my interest in racing my UL-1 would go up considerably. Would help in not burning down batteries, esc’s and motors, thus saving in expenses. If you have other part numbers, could you share them? I would like to check these out... Thanks for bringing some new ideas to the table.
Fast Electric Addict!
What advantage? The fastest guys I know run $79 motors. Those guys aren't burning down motors, esc, and motors. Guys that are winning national championships are not burning down.
Noisy person
KANADA RULES!
Terry..you're missing the point where I said motor "dejour"..not picking on the AQ...but what ever motor seems to be flavor of the day at any particular moment in history will be pushed (and over pushed) by people trying to get out every last bit of performance they can. Reliability of setups come second.
Grand River Marine Modellers
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/...ne%20modellers
KANADA RULES!
Craig..the guys that keep on winning are the better drivers who spend time and effort in their setups...plain and simple.
Grand River Marine Modellers
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/...ne%20modellers
Fast Electric Addict!
In regards to attracting Joe new guy, are any rtr boats coming with information about NAMBA or IMPBA? I just checked the UL19 manual and there is no mention of any racing, not sure if a separate page might be included. I know the only way I found out about organized racing was from either a flier or a page in the owners manual of my SV27. It read something like, when you get tired of boating on an open lake try making some buoys from milk jugs and racing around them. Still bored? Check out what organizations might be close to you, either NAMBA or IMPBA, boating with friends is always more fun.
I think the boat precedes the book.
Fast Electric Addict!
I can only speak for AquaCraft RTR boat, but YES they used to have an IMPBA application and a NAMBA application included with the other boat specific documentation. Heck, they also included decals on the decal sheet representing both orgs. I have been multiple years since I've gotten a NIB RTR, so I don't know if its still currently being done or not.
Wait the more I think about it...
SV27, SV27R, and UL-1 came with decal sheets
Revolt, Lucas Oil, and Motley Crew all came with decals pre applied under clear coat
I still think in all instances both orgs were represented with decals and paperwork.
Fast Electric Addict!
I have a couple questions. Who knows. Maybe Brian or Dave are still seeing these. If we rolled back the hands of time and proposed this class way back when with L x W x Weight...........would there have been any discussion of these rules for last 8 years or so? I personally think there wouldn't have been nearly the hand wringing. We also wouldn't have had this thread. If that's fair (at all) it begs another question.....................what's the down side to having a national rule set for these? What's the deterrent so to speak?
Mike had asked what the benefit to IMPBA was. Participation is the short answer. Participation is the only reason for any rule set at the hobby level. We could ask that of all the classes. What's the benefit of having rules for say Thunderboat or gas hydro, or sport 20? Guys wanted to race them together. Needed a guideline. Made sense. So why not just let the clubs decide what Thunderboat is? Give them a suggestion but let them do what ever? Why not do that?
For that matter.....................why have any national rules? It's a leading question obviously. The idea is for people to know what they're getting no matter where they race.
Noisy person
Fast Electric Addict!
I know Paul. Ivwas just kidding around. There are a few guys like Darin setting up mono1 etc to race internationally possibly, so there is hope!
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