More limited motor discussion

[Doug Smock]

Dan Chase, blast from the past! Wonder what he's up to.

[Steven Vaccaro]

I've admitted multiple times that we blew it on the original rule set. We were ignorant. Worked because guys were pretty trust worthy.

This new direction...........we're completely un-complicating it. How is length, width, weight complicated? Ever see what the gas guys are up against for tech if required? Yikes. haha How about an N1 brushed motor check? 4 pages in the book on how to do that.

We can't do another list either. Change it every year through an act of congress? Then we would need parameters for a motor to be allowed ON to the list. Then we also have to prove that a motor on site is actually as manufactured. You couldn't have a list and then allow modifications to motors on the list. That's where we are now. List of motors we can't tech and prove are correct. I don't want to ever check a motor. That's my dream but if I had to.............I need to be able to prove it's correct. With a list that's subject to manufacturing whim it's impossible.

example: Next time you see an AQ 2030......tell me if it's been re-wound. There could be two 2030's still in their original boxes side by side built on different dates with different thickness wires. Which one is the right one? They both are. Now go back and figure out if the another was re-wound. This is kinda what Smock has been saying to me for years. The ability to know beyond a doubt that a motor is as specified by the rule set didn't exist. We were taking it on faith. Faith never bit us on the butt as far as I know. The FE crowd is pretty respectable in my experience but it did allow a shadow of doubt to creep into the race results. Others looked at the results and said hmmmmmmm.

.

I can understand this. I didn't realize how many people were rewinding motors or altering them.

I see the other thread looking for weights and sizes. To me its not possible to cover everything.

A well made aqua 2030kv motor worked for years, until quality dropped. I would use that as my baseline of what can fit and work. It was 57mm and about 210 grams. So now people want to also include the tp motors. Ok, a tp is 58mm and 270 grams. So make it simple. 270 grams 36.50x60.00mm or less. Done.
That rules out a Leopard 3660 because its 60.2mm. So be it. You can't fit everything out there. And shouldn't have to. Thats why its limited.

[Ken Haines]

"Yer Lordship" lol Wonder if we can make that stick? You know, once he earns it...

I like it.....hope we can remember that name afterwards at the bar.
Maybe we can even get the name printed on the pads of butter.
Thx for coming up with that Doug, I'm sure now he is glad to be on your team.....lol

[ray schrauwen]

Sounds good Steve. If Ray Presnell can set a record with an off the shelf PB motor at Vegas, who needs to go all out?

As my Gold cans wear out I've invested in the Blue cans, just need some soft water to try them out.

I watched the hard work that Darin and others put in and made a choice based on that.

Thank you all, looking forward to running soon.

[CraigP]

I wish there was a limited class that only had 2-year rookie drivers. All the veterans get in there, hop their stuff up, and just make mince meat out of newbies. I have the same beef with nascar letting Cup drivers compete in Infinity series. Maybe you have tried a class like that in the past and it didn’t work out.

[T.S.Davis]

Craig, that's what's so fun about the spec classes. Those veterans will tell you how to go faster. "Sharpen this, sand that down, try a 4255 but pitch the ears on it." I've tweaked props for guys on site. Sometimes the new guys think of something that sounds insane............then you think on it.......holy crap let's try that.

Steven, it's not that a lot were being rewound necessarily. I mentioned that for the most part FE characters are straight up peeps. My point was that I couldn't prove it either way. I couldn't prove a motor had been rewound and I couldn't prove it hadn't either. Imagine a record was set and then some questioned the validity of the record since verifying the motor was impossible.

Let the data collection happen and an educated guess will present itself.

[Doby]

I wish there was a limited class that only had 2-year rookie drivers. All the veterans get in there, hop their stuff up, and just make mince meat out of newbies. I have the same beef with nascar letting Cup drivers compete in Infinity series. Maybe you have tried a class like that in the past and it didn’t work out.

You do not need to really hop up anything to win.

[dethow]

I wish there was a limited class that only had 2-year rookie drivers. All the veterans get in there, hop their stuff up, and just make mince meat out of newbies. I have the same beef with nascar letting Cup drivers compete in Infinity series. Maybe you have tried a class like that in the past and it didn’t work out.

You do not need to really hop up anything to win.

Agreed Doby…
In MMEU we have newbies with fast boats on the water, but the veterans make mincemeat of them because of driving skills. Then we have had a newbie with fast boats who made mincemeat of some veterans since he lives 2 miles from our pond and was out there turning laps every opportunity he could. He's not considered a newbie anymore. Not because he's as good as the veterans at setting up a boat, but because he can drive with them.

[T.S.Davis]

Dave, you should see him race cars. Brutal.

[dethow]

Dave, you should see him race cars. Brutal.

I think we may be thinking of different people Terry. I've got Ken B on my mind. I think you are referring to Chris F.

But either way... we are now confusing newbies that have both turned out great racing seasons with good driving skills against veterans.

[Doug Smock]

Craig Terry is right. (Dang did I just type that? On open forum? Really?) Show up to the pond with a boat that isn't where it should be and see what happens. Just pick one, you don't need all those guys in your pits!!
Driving in traffic is another thing. Fixing end point adjustments and wheel time will fix that. I don't know why guys think rudders need to swing like barn doors...

[raptor347]

Now we're talking. It's one of the things I love about this hobby. Once you get past the keyboard , it's an incredibly helpful group.

I'm going to run blue cans in spec and TP's in open this June. If I get out motored in spec, so be it.

The one thing I think we can all agree on is not letting the performance get out of hand, it's not the point of the class. We'll collect a bit more data and see if we can get it righter (I don't know if there is a right). Losing a few options on the long/heavy end will hurt the class less in the long run than allowing the power level to keep creeping away on us.

We have open motor classes if you want insane power.

[T.S.Davis]

But either way... we are now confusing newbies that have both turned out great racing seasons with good driving skills against veterans.

Truth. Look how far Kevin has come too. 2 seasons and he's winning. Brode had never owned a boat when we met him a couple years ago. He'd never even thought about toy boats. We hosted a race at the lodge where he was a worker bee. Now he's an adict.

For those wondering how they got there so quickly.......they ask questions. We give them our best old guy guesses. No secrets in FE. Not really. Kevin expressed an interest, bought the parts, and I built his first boat frr noth'n. The vets want you to be as fast as they are. More fun to battle with a guy than to bury him. 6 laps running fer your life vs running by yourself.

[longballlumber]

I would probably suggest the names I am currently being called is covering the entire spectrum; good to bad. However, I can guarantee that my wife has called me worse at times!

[longballlumber]

I pulled this attachment from the measurements thread.

I was looking at the lengths that Dave provided a little closer this morning. Did you notice the NEU 1412 3D is 61mm long. The other 1412's are 55mm long, but they all nearly weigh the same.

The other thing I noticed was the his 1409 2Y is the SAME length as a couple of the 1412's

I seem to recall at least 2 (maybe 3) where TP shipped or manufactured cans of different lengths.

Just an observation.

[T.S.Davis]

That's the way I remember it too Mike. TP actually lists a V1 and V2 version in the data sheet.

There for a while if you ordered a Neu and they didn't have the right can on the shelf they just stuffed your order in the can they had available. I have a crazy looking 22 series like that. There's about 3/4" of dead space in there.

[T.S.Davis]

Hmmm About 8mm shorter on the mod 1515 2200kv but same weight. Not sure what to make of that.

[HTVboats]

Maybe to simplify things the rules would incorporate and allow an FE Director and a select committee of say 4-6 actual FE racers could review and update yearly an approved motor list staying in the 36X61 mm range. Right now the list is out of touch with available motors. That way review is built into rule structure.
Mic

[Ken Haines]

I pulled this attachment from the measurements thread.

I was looking at the lengths that Dave provided a little closer this morning. Did you notice the NEU 1412 3D is 61mm long. The other 1412's are 55mm long, but they all nearly weigh the same.

The other thing I noticed was the his 1409 2Y is the SAME length as a couple of the 1412's

I seem to recall at least 2 (maybe 3) where TP shipped or manufactured cans of different lengths.

Just an observation.

Hi Mike,
Just ran the 1412-3D(61mm) Sunday that I bought from Dave (brand New), actually had not even gotten
to fill Dave in on these results yet. I had my same set-up and prop as when I run the Dynamite 1500.
I do not want to give away my whole set-up, however I probably have 50+ heats on my P-Ltd mono.
That 1412-3D is 1650kv. It ran pretty much the same speed as the Dyn 1500 I know for sure
because my son's boat is absolutely identical same speed too. We ran pretty much neck and neck on the
straightaways just like when I run the 1500. This dissappointed me a little as I had hoped it would have
been slightly faster with the 150Kv addition. When I was done with a 1 mile run (8-Laps on 1/8th course)
and brought the boat in it was really hot and now the windings are pretty brown kind of half smoked.
I realize this is not absolutely technical, but kind of proved not to be a better motor than the Dyn 1500.
I will note that the 1412-1.5y does seem to be better than this 3D. Could be the old Y's run cooler and
more efficient than D's theory.
Hope this helps, just wanted to provide some info for you....yer Lordship....lol
Thx,
Ken

[dethow]

Mike and Terry,
I know guys... there are some weird things there. For that reason, all of the Neu motors I have will be coming to the meeting on Saturday so that Mike can check all the measurements and weights.

I no longer have the Spec 1415 that was 70.1 mm long. That motor was sent back to Neu as a guinea pig. I have asked Steve Vaccaro to provide some measurements on that motor (since he stocks them) for some verification on what I had.
Steve, if you are seeing this... there is a list of additional motors on the measurements thread.

I also no longer have the 1409 or 1410 motors. I believe the explanation on why some of the 1412 motors are in a similar 55mm long can, like the 1409... is because Neu made a slight mistake when building the 1412 1.5Y and 2.5D motors. They were ordered to be at the spec 61mm and one day they called and said there was a mistake made on the cans and would it matter if they were under 61mm. I didn't care as long as they were under 62mm. You know? Anyway… I think those 1412 motors basically got crammed into what they normally use for the 1409.

Those 1412s coming at that short length is what sparked my thought of the 1415 being cut down to fit 62mm. So Neu then made a mistake on the 1412 3D motors and shipped them to me at 68mm long. When they had me ship those back for correction I used the opportunity to have them cut down the 1415, I already had. Since they were already going to be setting up machinery for cutting about 8mm out of a motor... Why not? It worked so I placed an order for additional 1415s.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

[T.S.Davis]

I'll look through my stockpile. I pitched a bunch of motors late season. Mostly SSS motors loose.

[Steven Vaccaro]

That's the way I remember it too Mike. TP actually lists a V1 and V2 version in the data sheet.

There for a while if you ordered a Neu and they didn't have the right can on the shelf they just stuffed your order in the can they had available. I have a crazy looking 22 series like that. There's about 3/4" of dead space in there.

your right, many motors in diff cases. Another reason not to use my motor list idea.

[Darin Jordan]

When I was done with a 1 mile run (8-Laps on 1/8th course)
and brought the boat in it was really hot and now the windings are pretty brown kind of half smoked.

Ken, if you tried to run a 4-Pole, 1650KV motor, using the same prop as the Dynamite 1500, 6-Pole motor, then I can explain your "brown" windings... Wrong prop for the job, my friend. :) Definitely not "apples to apples".

Get into Brian's "magic prop box", and the results would have been different. I'm certain of it.

[T.S.Davis]

Nobody listens to us Darin. Haha

[Doug Smock]

Nobody listens to us Darin. Haha

They're learning...

[NativePaul]

An outsiders view here, take it or leave it.

It seems that you are trying to limit power by using the motor as a fuse, and are having issues with people pushing the motor too hard and blowing them, motors changing spec within production, and going out of production, but it looks like if you open the motor spec up
to allow decent non RTR motors, you will allow full on P power with it, which is likely to kill either the limited or the full P class.

Have you thought about limiting the power electronically, instead of with a very expensive fuse? https://neumotors.cartloom.com/store...imiter-2017-18 From what I gather 1KW is a decent but fairly conservative power for P Ltd, that should not result in lots of blown RTR motors, even if you didn't get one from "the magic batch", you could open it up to any motor, and while expensive books will have a slight efficiency advantage, the difference will be a heck of a lot less than the difference between 2 people with the exact same motor, one of which runs conservatively as they need it to last for years, and one who poo uses the limits as they don't mind burning one now and again.

I haven't used the above device, I just saw it and thought of you guys, maybe it is the answer to your prayers, maybe due to the peaky nature of boat power vs the steady power of an aeroplane it can't work, or maybe New could do some mods and make it work.

In Naviga are just going away from using our batteries as fuses and are using electronic energy limiters instead, which is perfect for us as we have a set run time, but with the right energy limit set could work for you too, if boats are too peaky for a power limit to be feasible. There are 3 manufacturers of boat energy limiters, and they have 2 years of national level testing behind them, but are just being legalised internationally this year. China race to Naviga rules too, so I expect we will see an energy limiter come out of China at a lower price point than the European made ones before too long.

[Doug Smock]

Hi Paul,
Yes sir ''The motor is the fuse" mentality is what got this party started. Current limiters and fuses have been beat to death through the years.

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...or+is+the+fuse
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...-AMPs-Thoughts
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...tor-discussion
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...n-the-hot-seat
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...tor-discussion
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...lines-for-2015

And it goes on and on......

Mr. Ball ( Yer FE Lordship) is on a path that may be viable and long lasting. If he finds that it's not the case my hope is that he advises the IMPBA BOD to run, not walk away from this. Many of us have been managing these classes just fine. Without a National Rule set!!

I've given this some thought over the last couple days. Maybe P-ltd has run it's course.

We've had a good 8 year run with it up here in the PNW. I think the rest of the country has done pretty well too. We could just let it die and return to open motor racing nationally and let the local clubs run what they want. With the historical experience of LSH and P-ltd, another option is flush this rule set and come up with something a bit more stable/flexible using that past experience. What stable/flexible means is certainly open to interpretation.

Having watched and participated in these discussions for years now, it might be the most healthy move for the hobby. As a recipient of some of the mud slinging, it certainly makes me wonder if it's worth the continued effort to keep it alive.

Until someone sits down and writes up a rule proposal and it passes, it is what it is in NAMBA. At this point, I really don't care if the class continues or not. I will say that the manner in which these discussions carry on isn't good for the hobby in general.

It's hard to argue with Brian here. When is enough, enough?

Don't forget there is more of the above here http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/feforums/index.php
And here...http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?act=idx

[Ken Haines]

Ken, if you tried to run a 4-Pole, 1650KV motor, using the same prop as the Dynamite 1500, 6-Pole motor, then I can explain your "brown" windings... Wrong prop for the job, my friend. :) Definitely not "apples to apples".

Thanks Darin......I guess when I hear Terry talking about the 6-pole advantage I need to listen better &
put more thought on the subject. Btw Terry or Darin, which motors brands are currently 6-pole ?
Feel a little dumb now, but guess I have learned something, otherwise it would have had a pretty valid test.
To others reading this do not be confused about us having burnt motor issues, we are not, it was a test
and I definetely was not worried about the outcome, just wanted to drop something into my existing set-up
so that I did not waste this spring re-testing props. Thought the results would lessen the fears of the 1412's.

Great thread....lets keep the positive energy going on this and
hopefully fix the little bump in the road and fly with most of the
original proposal plus the soon to be determined weight limit revision.
Then lets get back to racing !

[Darin Jordan]

It's hard to argue with Brian here. When is enough, enough?

Doug,

With all due respect, P-LTD is the biggest set of classes out there. If not for this format, exactly how many FE racers do you think you'd actually have??

I know it's a pain right now, but it's hard to argue that the basic idea is working. You just need to stop focusing on the chaff, and focus on the actual root of the matter.

Sorry, but it's silly to just say "let it die", when there are entire clubs, and a good chunk of the National FE program, subscribing to this format of power systems.

[T.S.Davis]

Doug, if you want to have an FE nats (some of us still like those) moving forward you have to include the power level that brings the boys to the pond.

You also need Joe new guy that's surf'n the web, to find the IMPBA rule book, sift through and find classes that there are actually boats running in. Heats to land in. So......racing can happen. Right now, a guy opens the book, see's 4 pages on brushed N1 motors and figures that's a great place to start. "Hey, I got a whole box of those old motors! Woohoo!" Or he builds a 2s open boat thinking it will be a cheap way to get going. Been 8 years since I heat raced one. I have 6 on the rack still. Or he could maybe build a 70mph P rigger on the cheap. Good place to start? Open racing is fine for some but based on the many guys I've personally trained/mentored/whatever ya call it..................P is a horrible place to start. I've got guys that have raced for a few years now that can barely handle limited.

With the historical experience of LSH and P-ltd, another option is flush this rule set and come up with something a bit more stable/flexible using that past experience.

Doug and I both agree with Brian. This is the path Mike is currently helping us navigate. I'm more confident than I have been in a while that we're getting somewhere.