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Thread: More limited motor discussion

  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Vaccaro View Post
    Can someone tell me why 62mm? And not the specs of the original limited motors?

    If we stayed within those old constraints, we wouldn't be having any of these discussions.
    I don't have a "politically correct" answer for that but I can tell you without a doubt that those motors still work for a successful P Limited racing program.
    Last edited by Doug Smock; 02-14-2018 at 05:50 PM.
    TOY BOAT RACER
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  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    I don't have a "politically correct" answer for that but I can tell you without a doubt that those motors still work for a successful P Limited racing program.
    Yup.. BUT, how many of the originally listed motors are still in Production? I can tell you first hand that the part numbers for the Dynamite motors are the ONLY thing that's the same.

    Need to dump the lists, part numbers, and extraneous nonsense, and simplify the allowance to be inclusive, but sufficiently restrictive.

    In my humble opinion, anyhow.

  3. #93

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    This rule change would only affect the Nationals. Even if you had a 1415 at the Nationals, it doesn't mean anything. Dave Newland has proven several times that consistency wins way more races. Let's say Darin shows up at our club race with a 1415, and he laps everybody. At the end of the day, we'd have a vote, and that motor wouldn't be allowed - simple. When people think this motor will drive away racers, they're not thinking - you can do whatever you want at club level. If I did go to the nationals, I would have 2 or 3 1415s, because I can't do the consistency thing. It bugs the crap out of me if someone has a faster boat than mine.

  4. #94

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    All this talk makes our club look extremely laid back. We allow anyone to race any boat, as long as it fits the basic hull design and even at that we bend to accommodate, cats and monos to run together. Heck there is a kid building a JAE 33 and we’re gonna let him run 6s with the p-spec 4s guys and no one cares. I guess my point is that we like to let everyone play and winning isn’t what draws new members. Our club has grown significantly in the past few years because of this. Guys up north come down and run with us because it’s a fun place to play and race. Winning isn’t everything. These are just toys and it’s just a hobby and this is just my opinion.

  5. #95

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    The smart thing would to let the Board of Directors (in NAMBA) make changes to the motor list based on the existing rules rather than it be a membership vote. They could discuss it and inspect any new motors wanting to make the list and vote it in. The could consult some smart people and get all the info needed. Vote in a new motor and put it on the list. The BOD could do it once a year and we could have a new motor list each and every year based on our current rules.
    I understand wanting to make sure we have "motors' available but our most popular form of power in NAMBA is GAS and it is based on one motor manufacture. The most popular stock class is based off one motor manufacture. Our most popular nitro OPC class is based off of one motor. Most popular electric classes are based off a few motors and yet here we are discussing the option of opening it up. I don't see this going well.
    Its true that the same guys will eventually rise to the top and that one new hot motor will eventually be in the hands of everyone, but at what cost? A new motor $250.00, a new speed control to harness all that power $250.00 dollars, a new prop to handle all that power, $50.00. and what have we really accomplished..................

    Im lucky, if I get tired and frustrated with a new rule I can just move on to a different class and a different power plant. I race all three disciplines. but for some the price of spec will probably increase too much. BTW the best way to increase participation is to have spec classes that are affordable.

    Just a simple mans opinion.

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post

    Need to dump the lists, part numbers, and extraneous nonsense, and simplify the allowance to be inclusive, but sufficiently restrictive.
    And we will when we need to. Everyone was happy at the end of last season in our GP Series and wanted to continue to dance with the lady that brought them. When they see a change is needed they'll look for a new dance partner. Hopefully by then the noise has stopped and we'll fall in line.
    TOY BOAT RACER
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  7. #97

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    Doug, IMPBA is on a different situation than NAMBA. We have rules on the books to consider.

    Rules that, as written, really can't be consistently enforced.

  8. #98

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    I get it. I guess I put this in the wrong forum. I'll just sit back and take notes.

    TOY BOAT RACER
    Sponsored by Smock Racing
    IMPBA National Records Director
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
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  9. #99

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    Haha... no. I stuck my nose in where I probably shouldn't have.

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    Haha... no. I stuck my nose in where I probably shouldn't have.
    No man it's all good!!

    We're all brothers from different mothers..


    Except Doby, don't know what happened there..
    TOY BOAT RACER
    Sponsored by Smock Racing
    IMPBA National Records Director
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

  11. #101

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    You realize I can hear you.............. Closest thing to a middle finger I could find!

  12. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    You realize I can hear you.............. Closest thing to a middle finger I could find!
    Love ya buddy. Don needs you in Atlanta! When are you coming?
    TOY BOAT RACER
    Sponsored by Smock Racing
    IMPBA National Records Director
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

  13. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    If the spec isn't at least 36.3mm x 60mm (60.2 for tolerance ), then this is a lost exercise.

    The numbers were chosen to be INCLUSIVE, not so restrictive that nothing would fit.

    The 36x50 motors are a substantial drop off. I don't consider those an option.
    Darin, I am kinda laughing right now. Why 36.3mm diameter? Why not 36.2mm (for tolerance)?
    Wait...I know the answer... because Dynamite motors are 36.3mm. Just teasing you a little Darin

    Well at least that may be the silver bullet to get rid of the Neu motors. They are 36.5mm diameter. They are consistent there.
    Not going to stop a TP 3640 from getting stuffed into a shorter can thou.

    I don't think 36x50 motors were brought into this conversation by anyone... so don't know why that WOULD be considered an option.

    37mm x 62mm max - out of past, present and future RTR boats is inclusive enough and will manage itself. It will change and evolve over time.

    Outside of that... just let me know and I'll start making calls and have as much sh*t as I can stuffed in your can limit.

    If I don't do it... someone else will. And others will follow. Before you know it people are buyer RTR boats and made to feel that now they need to go spend $250 on a new motor to be able to compete. That's what I think you guys have not factored into this simple dimensions rule set.

    And is it a simple dimension rule set if we're talking about creating a list of motors that aren't allowed at club levels because of unfair advantage, but then allowing them at national events. Sorry guys just doesn't make much sense.
    Last edited by dethow; 02-14-2018 at 09:56 PM.
    Have fun with that....

  14. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    Love ya buddy. Don needs you in Atlanta! When are you coming?
    Not in the cards this year...hoping to see you two knuckle heads in Michigan though.

  15. #105

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    Sigh...

    David, the dimensions I discuss have little to do with what Dynamite might or might not be. The simply come about as,a result of having researched and ordered and tested every motor I could find out there that might be considered close to the existing spec motors. Shouldn't need to rehash this. I've posted all the data on OSE previously. No other motive other than to get to the truth of real data.

    Keep in mind that the rules have to actually incorporate motors that are actually generally available. When you start looking, you'll find there aren't as many available in proper KVS as you might think.

    If I can find my data table with my measurements, I'll post it.

    It was known all along that the max would be found. That's the nature of racers. Seems we can accept a 1412, but 1415 is too far.

    I think that's a good place to start.

    Oh, and you'd better go research your RTRs. Not many actually coming with 36mm motors. A few, but adding the RTR part isn't an inclusive solution.

    I know the dimensional spec works. Just have to agree on the limits.

  16. #106

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    Darin...
    I was only having fun and poking at you with the Dynamite diameter comment. It was just a funny coincidence I noticed.

    Otherwise... whatever You guys do what you're going to do. I'll just and race within the

    But for the record… there are more than a few RTR options with 36mm motors. Ten (10) of them are quick to think of: Revolt 30, Motley Crew, Lucas Oil, UL-1 Superior, Blackjack 29, Veles 29, UL-19, Popeye, Pursuit, Phantom SV33.

    Those provide you with three (3) different manufactures and five (5) different motor choices. I don’t know what boat the Dynamite 1500kv came in but that would be a 6th motor. And that’s not accounting for new offerings that may come. Three (3) of those listed boats and two (2) of the motors just came out in the past 24 months.

    And if manufactures stop making boats with 36mm motors then the class should just die. We should never expect people to buy a new boat and have to spend money on a smaller/slower motor to race with us. With RTR considered in the rule it will live, breath, grow, shrink and maybe die as necessary.
    Have fun with that....

  17. #107

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    Just a little data on the 1415 capabilty. This is from my raptor running a castle 1415 2400kV (the actual Neu will handle a bit more Power), CC ice 200 with cooling, Dinogy 4S 3300's paralleled (6600 total). Average current 192amps (spikes to 232 amps), ~2500 watts average. Heat time right at 72 seconds in traffic.

    Compare that to my Spec setup running an old (read good/early) AQ 2030 averaging 75 amps (spikes to 105) 1050 watts average.

    There's roughly 10 mph difference in speed between these to power systems in the same hull.

    Food for thought.
    Brian "Snowman" Buaas
    Team Castle Creations
    NAMBA FE Chairman

  18. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Revolt 30, Motley Crew, Lucas Oil, UL-1 Superior
    Hobbico filed for Bankruptcy, you do know that, right??

    And that puts a total of two motors on the table, both of questionable manufacturing quality from batch to batch. Both that we seem to NOT be able to tech today.

    So let's see, how many strikes against those does that make??


    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Blackjack 29
    Veles 29
    UL-19
    Yup... BJ29 is discontinued, but motors are still available (came with 1800 or 2000, depending on the generation). 1500KV came in the Miss Geico, also discontinued. Motors are still presently available. VELES 29 and UL-29 share the same motor. So, granted, that's three... Again, RTR stuff, here today, gone tomorrow, and who knows what the next batch might produce.


    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Phantom SV33.
    Don't forget the Skater... Two boats, same motor. SSS 3630-2030KV 6-Pole with Pro Marine Logos. Good, solid motors today. Next batch? Hopefully so.

    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Popeye
    Pursuit
    Popeye is a pretty damned big boat. You sure it comes with a 36mm motor? Either way, again, SSS motors. Who knows what they'll come up with next.


    You seem to want to go back and repeat the mistakes that we made in NAMBA. If that's your thing, have at it. But, as soon as you start adding gray areas like "must be from a RTR", etc., the rules become more of a "gentleman's agreement"
    as they are NOT ENFORCEABLE. You've seen all the discussions here over the years. You should see that by now.

    And wasn't it YOU who just posted above that you KNOW people were already cheating in this regards? Can YOU tell what bearings they are using? Whether or not they've re-wound the motor? I can't. Most CDs can't.

    It is because of all of this and what has already been hashed over that our club, Terry's club, and others, wanted to rectify this once and for all, and simply restrict the physical size. If you start adding weight requirements, or cost requirements, or a maximum KV, or whatever, then enforcement not only becomes dicey, it becomes NECESSARY, which means you have to have a way to actually, accurately, fairly, and PRACTICALLY do it.

    Not sure what more needs to be said in that regard. My advice: LEARN from OUR mistakes! Look at our motor list. How many are actually still available? WHY would we want to continue to address this every season as parts become available or not available? HOW do you tech this stuff?

    Anyhow, that's why we think (our club, others) we have a better way with just limiting the physical dimensions. It's viable. Just need to settle on the dimensions.

    Outside of that, we may have to just agree to disagree on some of this. :) But that doesn't mean we can't share some laughs and some beer.

  19. #109

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    Found it. HERE are where the dimensions I originally proposed came from. Measuring all of the available P-LTD motors, plus others that were deemed to "might fit" into the class.

    As you can see... the diameters and lengths varied. Maximums were determined based on trying to fit them all in. For example, the LENGTH was ultimately determined by the SSS/Pro Marine offering, rounding up slightly for measuring tolerance.

    Nothing "pro Dynamite" motor related... Just facts.

    Motor_Sizes.JPG

  20. #110

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    Isn't it time we stop thinking we're "fixing" what we once knew as limited and accept that we're going somewhere else? This is where Peterson was right. Abrasive as all git out but still was right. The Wisconsin boys were fed up with quality hiccups though. They wanted to leave limited behind and do something else even though the equipment was still available.

    As bad as limited was..........the rule set held it's own for about 8 years. It was the most populated power spec. Pretty solid run.

    With the new spec......yes, the old stuff will be legal. Yes, there will be RTR's that can race right out of the box. The RTR' today are better, faster, and more reliable than the RTR's that were available back in 2008 or 2009 when Dave penciled the limited rules. An SV27 from 2009 is not going to compete with a PM Phantom. Not even a little bit close. The boats have evolved. Boats are going to evolve more. Guys are going to find ways to go faster. So is the market. It happened with the old spec. It's going to happen with the new spec. Ever been to a time trial? Why bother? Because guys are always looking for crumbs down in the edge of the envelope. It's the nature of racing.

    Will this new path result in new speeds? Very likely. So what? The point is that we're defining something with a max. What that max is I guess................ is STILL being debated despite the results. We're still dwelling on "what if's". We ran it for a year and the "what if's" didn't pop up. Maybe if we run it for 5 years we'll find the magic bullet motor to dispel the whole idea. While we wait........ Elvis has left the building! Analysis paralysis.

    What we knew as "limited" isn't sustainable. This isn't speculation anymore. This new thing (feeling like broken record) needs to be both an entry point and still inspiring for everyone. Something between standing on shore watching and being a complete lunatic (you know who you are).

    Oh and on weights..... We could do something like that but then it will be: With connectors? Without? Short wires? Long wires? Don't change wires! Shave weight with ceramic bearings? Drill extra holes in the can before hand winding a motor? How about a carbon fiber can? Doesn't really keep it simple for the potential new racer. Then there is the tech work. Confiscate winning boats. Then watch as each contestant disassembles there setup. De-solders the connectors, removes the water jacket, take off the coupler.
    glue sniffer

  21. #111

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    Yeap... we NEED to go from currently 3 motor choices to 20. We can't just settle on going from 3 to 6. And when 2 die off there will still be 4 and maybe others will fill there places.

    Two/three years ago when this BS started (got real thick) we all thought AQ are not going to be available much longer we have to do something. Well if the rule had just been written originally to include any motors 37mm to 62mm from any past, present and future RTR modeled... the problem would have already fixed itself and we wouldn't be doing this right now.

    But you guys know best. Let's have 20 motor choices, tell guys buying a RTR boat that they now need to go buy a new motor, and lets run a race class with slower boats that what RTR market offers. Sounds like the future to me. Because if you are right and there soon will be no RTR boats with 36mm motors then this entire class is just going to suck and it should just die.
    Have fun with that....

  22. #112

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    Dave, I get it. I get the frustration. I don't think it's fear. I know you better than that. More like concern for the unknown.

    I know I'm feeling some frustration as we ran this for a year. Before it ever becomes even eligible a for a vote will be another year and we're still developing potential "what if" scenario. To make matters more perplexing for me......if Brian comes to MI and wins the response will likely be "see, the spec doesn't work". Lost will be the fact that he's one of the best drivers in the world and is likely willing to sacrifice a chicken in his pits to get 1/32 mph hour more out of a prop.

    2 or 3 years? Where ya been man? We raced it at the 2008 Cup, the club, Northern nats, and I think at CAFE that same summer. Dave wrote it up. There was some back n' forth. Then I proposed it in fall of 2008. I think. Not sure exactly when but we ran it officially for the 09 NATS. We've been defending it from day one. BTW I think we got it wrong. It worked but it was wrong. Primarily because we couldn't prove it. Wasn't tech able. It was too touchy feely faith based nonsense. Not because guys couldn't be trusted but because it opened the door for others to question the integrity of anyone that was successful. "Oh yeah he's fast but he cheats" kind of BS.

    If it had just said dims + any RTR, how do you define RTR?

    I was a distributor for TFL and incorporated. Even had liability insurance. If I got all the parts and put it together in my basement for someone ready to rip is it an RTR? I built Kevin's first Stealth that way less paint. If we say they have to have sold "X" number of units how do we even check that? Say Promarine buys 25 boats at a time and they come on a pallet. When does he qualify? First 25, 50, 200? How about 10 MTR, 10 Skater, 10 Phantom? PM already ran into this with the 100 unit mark that's actually in the book. Sold 100. He figured he was golden. Had Darin run some numbers to check out his motor I think. Wasn't that simple. Adding a motor to NAMBA needs a vote by membership as it's a racing rule. It's easier to get a heart transplant than get a motor added to the list. "What?!? Add a motor? But I have mind crippling fear!?"

    If we had just started with dims we would have been further ahead IMO but we were ignorant.

    I suspect it will be closer to 40 motor choices with various windings.
    glue sniffer

  23. #113

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    SMH Check out that horse. Is that a horse?!?!?Damn dude it looks like it might have been at one time....�� Good grief!!
    TOY BOAT RACER
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  24. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Oh and on weights..... We could do something like that but then it will be: With connectors?
    The weight limit shall not include collet, connectors, or a water jacket.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Without? Short wires? Long wires?
    They can be as long or as short as you like. Motor has to be under X grams

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Don't change wires!
    I am not sure I understand this comment. Most motors have the phase windings coming out of the can. Is there a way you can “change” those? I do know that some of the Dynamite and SSS motors look to have standard wire “crimped” to what I believe is the phase windings. I suppose you could change those but it still needs to be under X grams.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Shave weight with ceramic bearings?
    With respect to weight, I don’t think the difference between steel raced/balled bearings are going to be that much heavier than a full ceramic or hybrid ceramic bearing. Especially in the sizes we are dealing with.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Drill extra holes in the can before hand winding a motor?
    Most motors already have cooling holes on the endbells, and how do you water cool a can that has holes on the actual can? Not to mention the heat dissipation properties wouldn’t be optimal…?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    How about a carbon fiber can?
    I am not sure this is a better “mouse trap” either. While there are high-temp laminating epoxies out there, I would suspect the heat dissipation properties wouldn’t be optimal for our little electric motors. In the next day or two, I will try and calculate the weight difference between aluminum can and a carbon can. I don’t think the difference is going to be mind blowing.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Doesn't really keep it simple for the potential new racer.
    If you looked at the data, I think you would find we would/could find a max (in conjunction with size limits) that comfortably includes all of the motors you would expect. Actually, I would suggest the weight max would be transparent to a potential new racer.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Then there is the tech work. Confiscate winning boats. Then watch as each contestant disassembles there setup. De-solders the connectors, removes the water jacket, take off the coupler.
    Much of what we do with Model Boating is on the honor system. All of this can be processed in the case of a formal protest. The ONLY time someone is going to protest is if they are beating the snot out of everyone. However, if it does come up - #1. Measure the can. If it fits the dims then we #2. Weigh the motor. If the motor is under the max with all of the “stuff” on it… your good to go! If not then take off the water jacket; weigh it…. If you need to take off the connectors; weigh it... I think you get the idea. At the end of the day overweight is overweight.

    Am I missing something here?

  25. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    But that doesn't mean we can't share some laughs and some beer.
    Oh wonderful...Alcohol always makes people more reasonable

  26. #116

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    Mike, yer making a good case for it. Adding to that, how is that any different than tearing down a a gas motor? Nobody is doing that until someone stakes a claim. Isn't that the case? Showing my ignorance again.
    glue sniffer

  27. #117

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    That's correct Terry. Excellent post Mike. Something that will work!
    TOY BOAT RACER
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  28. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    SMH Check out that horse. Is that a horse?!?!?Damn dude it looks like it might have been at one time....�� Good grief!!
    Doug, respectfully, until it's resolved, it's not dead...

    Unfortunately, this IS a complete rehashing of what we have been bashing for the past three years of silly season, a few National events, and at race sights all over the country.

    Other than the fact that you can actually stuff a 1415 into a 62mm can, there isn't ANYTHING in this thread that is actually new information. All of this has been hashed over before. It's how our club decided to just go with size limits and be done with it. Racing has thrived ever since. I think Terry can claim the same thing.

  29. #119

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    Anything you add to a dimensional limitation, is simply being added to make people feel better. Any additions to the dimensional limitations have little value in actually regulating a class. The just complicate tech'ing and enforcement.

  30. #120

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    Doug, however... one more thing...

    Much to your approval I'm sure, I think my part in this discussion is done. I don't know what more I could possible say on the matter, so I'll retreat from this and let whatever happens, happen.

    I've already about decided to just ignore these classes and work on standard P-setups anyhow, because this is exhausting.

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