(Moved)Another P Limited / Spec motor discussion

[rayzerdesigns]

I kinda mentioned it earlier there. On race days...............there just is no debate. Nobody is wringing their hands about it at all. It's only on line that minds are lost. It's truly bizarre. It's like a different group of humans. Once we stop bickering about it like teenage girls, the BOD's form each organization will look at the results instead of the rhetoric.

Couple guys asked me the same question about the timing on a national set of rules. "What's the difference really?" If we had a rule set today, next month, or next year. Makes no danged difference. Venues (like a NATs, spring nats, MCup) will cater to what puts butts on the drivers stand...............until it doesn't. Tougher for NAMBA because they're already saddled to the old set. It will require monumental effort to get a trial set run at a national event. Heck, some of them believe that if it aint in the book it's not insured.

Jerry, if yer racing NAMBA you would need to swap out the motor for one on the list to be legal. Worth checking with the guys you plan to run with though. Many locale have opted for a revised version of "limited" based on dimensional data. That being 37mm x 62mm x 268 grams max. The 268 grams thing is something we only recently added. Motors that weigh in more than that are typically custom made. Possible of course. Hence the rule but rarely seen.

268 is way to heavy in my opinion..and I think the size needs to be smaller.. 37x60 max.. but that’s my opinion.. I applaud you guys in impba for trying to right the ship.. and am keeping s close eye on how ur nats work out.. I actually don’t like the weight thing for ease of tech.. I will be writing a proposal not far after the nationals there terry.. please keep me updated..

[rayzerdesigns]

Just wanted to update this with some info regarding motor size. I recently found a 36x58 size motor that had some solid looking numbers as listed by the manufacturer. I ordered one up to see how it would do in my new p-ltd cat. Before installing the motor I ran several times and at different ponds located in Southern CA with the gps speed consistently reading 50 mph ( 49.8, 50.3, 50.1, 49.7, etc) for my set up which is/was a AQ1800 kv motor and a stock prop from a ProBoat Zeles 29 that I sharpened and balanced. Then, changing nothing but the motor I ran again. To my delight my boat was now running 5 mph faster, on one run I hit 56 and change. The kv on the new motor was slightly higher, what was surprising is the amp draw was very close to the same. This motor retails for $99.99 usd and is available to anyone willing to place the order. I didn't have to call the manufacturer to have it specially made or anything. My AQ cooler was a direct fit.

I think we are trying to eliminate cases where a simple motor swap would yield a 5+ mph gain but how do we do that? To put that in perspective I was prop testing with the AQ 1800 and saw a 4 mph increase going from a m445 to the 1716. So how much of this is to blame on the motor and how much is to blame on the prop?

Prop being the key! Used to be a 445 was great on just about every boat.. but the abc line of props are amazing..I knocked 10 seconds off of mono record by changing to an abc prop..

[rayzerdesigns]

Yeah maybe. That might eliminate a couple TP's but if that keeps someone from inventing something insane it may be worth it.

Interesting to me is the fact that the motor list was and still is virtually un-techable.

The weight thing is not that big of a deal Ray. Think about every other class that has some form of limitation. Nitro and gas have limitations. You have to actually disassemble the motors to know with certainty they are correct. A weight limit for us is drop it on a scale. Dropping it on a scale - would only happen if there was some clearly obscene fast motor that raised suspicion of other racers. Like a "hmmmmmmmmm?" moment.

We need to take a minute and give ourselves some credit I think. For all the on-line hand wringing over it, on race day there was never any discourse. Maybe a level of trust exists that we don't give ourselves credit for. With the list, you could have rewound them to look factory. You could have swapped bearings. No way to prove that really either. Heck, from outside the can you would never know if the rotor was factory. Can you modify that somehow? I have no clue on that. All these things could maybe have been done (not to my knowledge BTW) and were impossible to prove or disprove. To tech the motor list you would have had to take them completely apart and check them against the original manufacturers specifications. Two AQ 2030's from different lots had different wires. "Unmodified" is right in the text. So.....prove it's "unmodified". Yet, no protests.........ever. 9 years or so.......and not a single motor protest anywhere. Not at a Cup. Not at a nationals.

I predict that with any new guidelines this will still be the case. L x W x W. Simple. Most guys would look inside someones boat. See motor x,y,z. Recognize it. Know what it was and a protest doesn't come. If it ever did, it will still be less intrusive than the procedure for a B hydro protest. Perspective.

Is there going to be a NAMBA FE nats this year Ray? I would be concerned that the motor list would hinder participation since most/some (how bout many?) of the country is moving away from that. A NAMBA nats might be a good place to establish proof of concept since there are fewer NAMBA clubs of late to use for reference. Of those I'm not sure there is consensus. I'm no NAMBA expert though.

Yes terry there will be nats in namba this year.. just like last year it’s a combined event.. I’m ok with that because I enjoy all the fuel types.. we can go back and forth on the weight thing terry.. I do think the 268 is on the heavy side and the 62mm is on the long side..as for weight.. is that with connectors?? Without?? A certain length of wire?? It leaves it open to debate.. unless u word it properly.. which I don’t see in your rule set.. you know me I’m not trying to start drama.. in fact want it to go away.. limited is the backbone of fe racing period.. I will be writing a proposal after your nationals in Michigan..but in all reality I’m looking at making max length 60mm..keep me informed.. as I would like to see both organizations have same rule set for limited

[Darin Jordan]

37x60 max..

I wouldn't allow 37mm... I would make the max 36.3mm. That covers about everything you'd want, at least based on my data gathered back when. Nothing out there is exactly 36mm, and 37mm will get people having custom cans made, etc..

P_LITE_MOTOR_SIZES.jpg


As for length, it's all over the board with our current list. If you include some of the popular proposed replacements over the years (TFL SSS3660, Pro Marine, etc.), then the limit would need to be around 61.2mm.

I still don't think that the "goal" is to NOT see an increase in overall performance. I think that may be impossible to restrict.

I think the goal should be SIMPLE and ENFORCEABLE. It does not matter WHAT you set the length/width at, people are going to try to MAX IT OUT. That's a given. That's fine. Let them. There WILL be an ultimate cap on the performance and then the class will stabilize and run... forever... without having to address these rules again.

I feel the weight limit is an unnecessary "feel good" complication that is, frankly, unenforceable. You can try, but there will ALWAYS be a problem with it (wires?, connectors?, cooling jackets?, someone making a custom carbon outer can, etc.)... Plus, it's VERY invasive. You can tell me it's not all you want, but if I have to remove the power system from the boat for you to tech it, especially if I have to remove contacts, water jackets, etc., then it's intrusive and unnecessarily complicated. to enforce.

The truth is that NAMBA WOULD have had this vote already had we stuck with my original suggested dimensions of 36.3mm x 61.2mm. Unless Mike Ball comes up with better data from his research that suggests that stuff is available in smaller lengths, which is the other key to trying to make a rule... motors actually have to be AVAILABLE that fit the rules... then 36.3mm x 61.2mm is where I'd put the limits and it'd be out for a vote.

[dethow]

I do think the 268 is on the heavy side and the 62mm is on the long side..as for weight.. is that with connectors?? Without?? A certain length of wire?? It leaves it open to debate.. unless u word it properly.. which I don’t see in your rule set.. you know me I’m not trying to start drama.. in fact want it to go away..

Ray,
Terry is out of town until next week so I just want to step in here and let you know that there is NO DEBATE on the rule set. An exact rule has not been detailed and fully written at this point but the weight limit is for the motor, plain and simple. Most motors do not come with connectors, collets or cooling jackets attached. These items can have varying weights and do not affect the performance of the motor. Thus, are being taken out of the equation.

So the motor has to be under 268 grams. If your motor can be under that with connectors, collet and/or cooling jacket still attached then your good. If you have to remove those to get under the 268 then your have to remove them. Period.

If someone wants to push the limits and cut wires and/or shaft down, then so be it. As long as the motor is 37mm x 62mm x 268g or less, it will be legal. Again... PERIOD. No debate. EASY to tech if necessary. There will be no... "Yeah, but the wires are only an inch long." If its 268g or less its legal. PERIOD.

And just to make sure no one jumps into this thread and misunderstands by thinking all motors will be weighed... NO.
There will only be a tech completed if there is a challenge made by another racer. Likelihood of a challenge is slim to non unless a boat is just hauling balls and the motor doesn't appear to be one of the standards that everyone knows.

And BTW, Ray... if you go less than 268 grams you will knock out the TP 3630 and may knock out the Leopard 3660. Those motors are of no threat to others and should be allowed. Anything under 253g and you'll knock out the SSS 3656 and the Dynamite 3831.
268 grams is a specific number that I'd prefer to see rounded up to 270 grams, but whatever. It's inclusive for everything guys have been using and not showing dominance. It also allows for future motors to come out and leave room to be included without allowing them to get crazy. As long as the motors are within the dims and weight the parity should be feasible and the favorite motors will come to the surface over time.

[dethow]

I wouldn't allow 37mm... I would make the max 36.3mm. That covers about everything you'd want, at least based on my data gathered back when. Nothing out there is exactly 36mm, and 37mm will get people having custom cans made, etc..

Darin... we've had this discussion already.
Your Neu 1409 measured 36.3mm while every Neu 1409, 1410 and 1412 I have measured is 36.5mm. The 37mm limit is there to leave some room for slight variations in manufacturing. Same thing on the length... nice rounded number to allow for some slight variations in manufacturing.

The weight thing will play out. I really don't want to get back into that debate. And I personally think it should be left alone for a while and lets see how it goes this season. This stuff has been talked and talked... lets take some time to race and test.

But Darin... as long as you will bend a little to let it be 36.5mm diameter so the Neu 1412s can be used... You've got a problem.
My 1415s are 61.5mm long. I'm sure they could be made to knock another 0.3mm off the length to fit the 61.2mm you propose.
So without a weight limit the 1415s and other over powered motors would be allowed. NOT GOOD.
Or even you leave it 36.3mm x 61.2mm. Without a weight limit... over powered motors could be made to fit.
Own it or chase it... and it costs $300 to own it. NOT GOOD.
Beside the fact that there would be very little difference in speed between limited/spec and open p. NOT GOOD.

No matter how you play it out... without a weight limit and class is doomed.

Don't worry... no one wants to pull your Dynamite 3831. We all see that's what it is and we all know that motor is well under the limits. But if your boat is running 5mph faster then everyone else AND we can see there is more copper in that Dynamite 3831 can then stock. Yes, you may get challenged and tech'd.

[rayzerdesigns]

I’m with darin on the weight thing for sure.. just like he stated..ease of tech.. but I’m the side of the fence with going down to a 60mm max length.. sure that willl knock some off the list.. but still plenty of options..I get your side of debate Ray.. but as always there is 2 sides.. we are trying to make it simple.. no need to pull motor out.. simple gauge.. we will just have to see how it plays out for now.. but I’m thinking 36.3x60 is where I might write the proposal..

[rayzerdesigns]

As for ur not teching even at nats.. the last 2 nats have had battery tech and motor tech and haven’t slowed down anything.. we want it to be easy.. not to have to pull motor out..

[dethow]

I’m with darin on the weight thing for sure.. just like he stated..ease of tech.. but I’m the side of the fence with going down to a 60mm max length.. sure that willl knock some off the list.. but still plenty of options..I get your side of debate Ray.. but as always there is 2 sides.. we are trying to make it simple.. no need to pull motor out.. simple gauge.. we will just have to see how it plays out for now.. but I’m thinking 36.3x60 is where I might write the proposal..

Your attempts at "ease of tech" and "trying to make it simple" will come at the expensive of parity and cost effectiveness.
Expensive overpowered motors that weigh 290g will be built in 36.3x60 cans. They will destroy the other motors (speed wise) and will cost double the price at least.

You'd be knocking out the Leopard 3660, SSS 3660, maybe the OSE Raider, and some of the TP 3630s have been manufactured over 60mm long.
Oh, and you'd be knocking out the Neu 1409, 1410 and 1412s.

But whatever.... you can write whatever you want and the members will vote. NAMBA can do what they're going to do, and IMPBA will do what they are going to do. The victor in winning over clubs and memberships will most likely be the most inclusive rules while still keeping parity and cost effectiveness. Democracy and time will tell who got it right.

[dethow]

Moving forward... why don't you guys keep your NAMBA rule proposal discussions out of IMPBA threads???
No body wants the drama you are trying to bring.

[rayzerdesigns]

That’s a great attitude..

[TheShaughnessy]

I only posted here because the NAMBA p ltd threads are closed. This seemed to be the best place for it. I think whether a person decides to join NAMBA or IMPBA depends more on location than the rule set governing p-ltd racing. I agree with weight being invasive, depending on your motor mount it can be pretty annoying to have to pull a motor.

[rayzerdesigns]

I only posted here because the NAMBA p ltd threads are closed. This seemed to be the best place for it. I think whether a person decides to join NAMBA or IMPBA depends more on location than the rule set governing p-ltd racing. I agree with weight being invasive, depending on your motor mount it can be pretty annoying to have to pull a motor.

Mikey don’t worry about this guy we all in namba are just causing drama obviously.. funny how everyone knows what drama he has caused in impba also..try to be nice but obviously he resorts to the same person he has been all along.. read his posts.... shows exactly what kind of person he is.. thx for the heads up Terry.. next time I will listen.. glue sniffer.. lolol..

[MarkF]

These seems like the perfect place to discuss this stuff since IMPBA and NAMBA should adopt the same rules. Good discussions so far except for the drama dethow is trying to stir up.

Mark

[Doug Smock]

Moderator hat on

I only posted here because the NAMBA p ltd threads are closed.

Will this one have the same fate? It's up to you fellas.

If you'd like, this thread is still open. And look, it's only 27 pages!! https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...ot-seat/page27

Please keep it on the surface guys!

Going to race toy boats with some friends. Have a good weekend!!

Thanks!

[dethow]

PM from Ray (rayzerdesigns) "And again.. you are very one sided.. delusional at best.."

I'm no more one sided than you. You've come here and keep going at it until everyone agrees with your weight issues. All we want is this season to look at things and you are pushing the issue and already talking about what’s going to be written up in a proposal for NAMBA. You seem to be here to try and prematurely win IMPBA guys over to your side of no weight limit.
Per you, you have 2 guys in district 19 whom will be running 1415s (37mmx62mm) this season and you are looking to be the third. You also say you want to prove you can get a 1415 under 268 grams. Great! I applaud all of you for offering some testing to see what can be done and what happens. So why don’t we just see what comes from all that before we start all this “this IS the proposal I’m writing” stuff? Very unnecessary at this point.

Michael (TheShaughnessy),
I don’t think there was any problem with your post #89. You were trying to bring something that you found. No issue. I was talking about the NAMBA rule proposals and how they want to write proposal right away. Sorry to make you feel like you were included in that.

Good discussions so far except for the drama dethow is trying to stir up.

I agree this WILL be a good discussion once there has actually been some racing and testing. To come here and start telling us what they think is right and that's what WILL be in the next NAMBA proposal. That's just an effort to influence and bully. Stirring the pot is all they are doing. If they think they have it right and are ready to write NAMBA proposals, then go do it. The IMPBA guys have been pretty clear that we want this season to race and test. So why is there an effort trying convince everyone of their opinions before the first big race of the season has even had its first heat?


And last...Doug,
Sorry... have a good event. I promise I will not post another thing here in an effort to not cause you reading time or further drama to guys trying to enjoy the event down there.

[dethow]

Michael

Can you give me some more information on the motor and where to get it?

Larry

Here you go Larry. I'm 99% sure this is what he (Mike) found.
High End Technology (HET), Typhoon 650-58. Dims are 36mm x 57.5mm x 250 grams

http://highendrc.com/index_ecat.php?cPath=53_56

[TheShaughnessy]

i guess the cat is out of the bag. Those are the motors I was talking about. I'm running the 1970 kv option. I know it's only a 4 pole but it doesn't seem to be lacking power. I will say that another member had this motor in his boat which is the same as mine just a little bit different layout and hardware. He runs a seaking 160 pro which has a boost feature. I think we had his timing at 15 (from use with another motor) and the boost timing was set to 18.75 if i recall. I'm not 100 percent certain if it was the timing or a possible cooling issue with the motor can nipples being threaded in to far but his motor ran HOT. I wasn't there for his first run with an abc 1716 (I've been told the proboat 1716 is slightly less agressive) but I guess it got pretty hot ( unconfirmed temp). We ran again later in the day and i disabled the boost function and turned down the timing to 7. Motor still ran hot and we propped down to a x440/3 that Darin Jordin did some work on. Boat ran great but when we pulled the tape and took a temp reading ( another member had one of the fancy laser temp guns) I was shocked to see 190 *f at the bearing/ shaft. I almost thought the temp gun was faulty but when we pulled mine , the same area of the motor was only 90f which is fairly consistent with the temps I was seeing while data logging. I also run a little fan i pulled from a car esc i burned up getting wet. It is powered by the BEC, I also tried running without the BEC and used a LiFe pack but didn't notice any significant changes. I haven't tried running without the fan to know for sure if it's making a difference in the temps but it sure makes me feel good.

[rayzerdesigns]

PM from Ray (rayzerdesigns) "And again.. you are very one sided.. delusional at best.."

I'm no more one sided than you. You've come here and keep going at it until everyone agrees with your weight issues. All we want is this season to look at things and you are pushing the issue and already talking about what’s going to be written up in a proposal for NAMBA. You seem to be here to try and prematurely win IMPBA guys over to your side of no weight limit.
Per you, you have 2 guys in district 19 whom will be running 1415s (37mmx62mm) this season and you are looking to be the third. You also say you want to prove you can get a 1415 under 268 grams. Great! I applaud all of you for offering some testing to see what can be done and what happens. So why don’t we just see what comes from all that before we start all this “this IS the proposal I’m writing” stuff? Very unnecessary at this point.

Michael (TheShaughnessy),
I don’t think there was any problem with your post #89. You were trying to bring something that you found. No issue. I was talking about the NAMBA rule proposals and how they want to write proposal right away. Sorry to make you feel like you were included in that.


I agree this WILL be a good discussion once there has actually been some racing and testing. To come here and start telling us what they think is right and that's what WILL be in the next NAMBA proposal. That's just an effort to influence and bully. Stirring the pot is all they are doing. If they think they have it right and are ready to write NAMBA proposals, then go do it. The IMPBA guys have been pretty clear that we want this season to race and test. So why is there an effort trying convince everyone of their opinions before the first big race of the season has even had its first heat?


And last...Doug,
Sorry... have a good event. I promise I will not post another thing here in an effort to not cause you reading time or further drama to guys trying to enjoy the event down there.

I guess we should all bow to you the expert... lol..
and if you read my posts or my pms you should recall I also stated waiting to see how the impba nats turn out..
Some may like the weight some may not..like you said let’s seee where this goes

[Fluid]

PM from Ray....

It is considered bad form to post a PM from another member without permission. There is a reason they are called Private Messages. Please refrain from this behavior in the future.

.

[ray schrauwen]

i guess the cat is out of the bag. Those are the motors I was talking about. I'm running the 1970 kv option. I know it's only a 4 pole but it doesn't seem to be lacking power. I will say that another member had this motor in his boat which is the same as mine just a little bit different layout and hardware. He runs a seaking 160 pro which has a boost feature. I think we had his timing at 15 (from use with another motor) and the boost timing was set to 18.75 if i recall. I'm not 100 percent certain if it was the timing or a possible cooling issue with the motor can nipples being threaded in to far but his motor ran HOT. I wasn't there for his first run with an abc 1716 (I've been told the proboat 1716 is slightly less agressive) but I guess it got pretty hot ( unconfirmed temp). We ran again later in the day and i disabled the boost function and turned down the timing to 7. Motor still ran hot and we propped down to a x440/3 that Darin Jordin did some work on. Boat ran great but when we pulled the tape and took a temp reading ( another member had one of the fancy laser temp guns) I was shocked to see 190 *f at the bearing/ shaft. I almost thought the temp gun was faulty but when we pulled mine , the same area of the motor was only 90f which is fairly consistent with the temps I was seeing while data logging. I also run a little fan i pulled from a car esc i burned up getting wet. It is powered by the BEC, I also tried running without the BEC and used a LiFe pack but didn't notice any significant changes. I haven't tried running without the fan to know for sure if it's making a difference in the temps but it sure makes me feel good.

Running a thrust bearing? They are ducted fan motors and really do need one.

[dethow]

It is considered bad form to post a PM from another member without permission. There is a reason they are called Private Messages. Please refrain from this behavior in the future.

.

No rules on that Fluid. If in individuals don't want their PMs shared then don't PM me. Have conversations in the open. Don't try and be sneaky and say things behind a PM and then get mad at me when I get testy on the thread. Same crap Doug Smock pulled on me back on the other thread... I'm sick of it. Say it in the open or know that it may get shared. Otherwise... don't say it at all.

[Doug Smock]

Smh....

[TRUCKPULL]

Dave let things go for now.

We will see how the Nat's go in MI.

Things here are getting heated, and don't need to be.

Larry

[Doby]

Smh....

I thought I heard something rattling!

[Doby]

Dave let things go for now.

We will see how the Nat's go in MI.

Things here are getting heated, and don't need to be.

Larry

Good advice Larry, pretty sure this is going to turn into a non-issue just like Y2K was!

[dethow]

Dave let things go for now.

We will see how the Nat's go in MI.

Things here are getting heated, and don't need to be.

Larry

Guys, If you read the thread I have been the one saying this is not a conversation to be had right now. If the NAMBA guys fee the need to discuss things now because they want to write a new proposal in the next couple months... go on a NAMBA thread and discuss it.

I didn't start this thread back up and what did wasn't bad info by Mike. But Ray and Darin used that opportunity to push their no weight limit agenda.

Don't see anyone getting on Ray for talking about something personal Terry said to him in private... that Terry probably really didn't want shared.
Don't see anyone asking Ray or Darin to let things go for now. Why should they be allowed to spread their views unchallenged?

I have no problem letting this go and already did. Yesterday. Fliud stepped in regarding PMs and I responded.

[rayzerdesigns]

No one said my thoughts were unchallenged.. it’s slways up for debate..maybe if you opened your eyes you would see that waitingbin seeing how nats go in Michigan..it’s no secret your hate for darin or myself.. obviously because we don’t agree 100% with your idea.. is what it is..everyone sees it for what it is.. and how you act.. have a great day.. and maybe from now on keep my name out of your discussions... on that not hope that all goes well in Michigan.. terry and his crew put on a great race.. and I’m sure this one will not dissapoint.. looking fwd to hearing and seeing the results .. and continuing this discussion and trying to bring the two organizations closer to a limited agreement

[dethow]

Ray, I don't hate you or Darin. You are both probably very nice people.

Yes... it IS true I don't like your lack of understanding that without a weight limit there is no rule that will work. The facts on that will play out as we see what these 1415s can do. And thus, what other copper heavy custom motors cramed into even a 36.3mm a 60mm can will do. A weight limit will stop that from hapening.
Brian Baaus gave enough of an opinion of that subject already that resulted in the size only proposals being pulled. So I think there may be something there. It's not just MY ignorant beliefs.

And I don't understand the thing of waiting to see how the nats go in Michigan. Same motors that were run in last years MI Cup will be at the nats. No changes. There's nothing new happening at the nats that will change anything. The only thing that changes anything is getting some actual water time with the 1415s.
They will not be at the nats.


Look... I AM sorry things got out of hand.

Between what was being said here and what was being said in our PMs... it appeared to me that you were basically pushing a no weight limit agenda before we even had done anything with the 1415s.
And then to top it off you were saying you WILL be writing a proposal after the nats but in ALL REALITY you are looking to make a max length of 60mm.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you are doing everything possible to try and get the NAMBA proposal in first and before the IMPBA guys have had this season (that they want) to test and mule things over.
You state that you want both organizations to have the same rules... as I think all of us do.
So I feel your statements are an attempt to rush a proposal that fits your desires and then try to bully the IMPBA guys into following suit so we can have the same rules. That's what I see and that's why I got frustrated.

I will be writing a proposal after your nationals in Michigan..but in all reality I’m looking at making max length 60mm..keep me informed.. as I would like to see both organizations have same rule set for limited

I wanted to respond to to your statements Ray because I thought it necessary to try and calmly describe why am frustrated. As others are requesting... I'd like to just let this go for now. If you feel the need to defend yourself regarding my feelings on your intentions then so be it.
I've explained my feelings on the matter and I'd just like to get some testing and facts before any of this is discussed further.

[MarkF]

Wow you guys are thinking 1415s? You know Brian B set a fast time at the nats 2 years ago in P sport hydro with a castle 1415 2400kv and an Insane sport hydro. I have the same set up in my insane hydro and it's over 70 mph. That's night and day difference between a stock class and full on P. If you allow 1415 motors you might as well not call it spec. The original spec motors had like 1410 stators in them and now people are trying to shove 1412s and 1415s in the can. This is my problem with the class and I am one for weight limits. And thats weight with the water jacket on. The only people who need to be checked are 1st 2nd and 3rd place at the nats. I think clubs should just run what they like, but at a national event, you need to have rules that can be enforced. Taking your motor out of the boat and collet off takes 5 minutes. It's not rocket science and questions like what about wire length and bullets, well guess what, there part of the motor package. Since most motors come with short wire anyways, I don't see the point of worrying about it.

Mark