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Thread: (Moved)Another P Limited / Spec motor discussion

  1. #1

    Default (Moved)Another P Limited / Spec motor discussion

    Since no one else has asked yet; I will....

    What does this mean? ">> Spec motors are to be unmodified from the factory"

    Isn't changing connectors a modification? Stock connectors on many over the counter motors will not survive heat racing. What about replacing worn out bearings? Wouldn't that be considered maintenance? I thought this is why we when to a physical size limitations, because it's techable. It's already been determined that high end, high quality, and high dollar motors don't offer an advantage. Right?

    I personally purchased a motor and the manufacturer claimed was 61.5mm in length; it showed up longer (62.94mm). However, I was able to take a little aluminum off of each end bell to put it in spec. Is this motor modified?

    I am ready for the verbal beating!

  2. #2

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    Been waiting for this. I'm afeared I don't have a legal motor in the fleet.
    TOY BOAT RACER
    Sponsored by Smock Racing
    IMPBA National Records Director
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

  3. #3

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    I would say Mike you got duped by the manufacturer, surprise surprise !! By shaving the end bells you have modified . replacing bearings from wear is maintenance , replacing bearings on a new motor / modification. lol
    Cheers, Jay.

  4. #4

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    We don't want guys losing to someone they believe is beating the system. We don't want any perception (accurate or not) to deter a guy from participating. In my head............ "spec" racing is a stepping stone between the RTR guy and us racing lunatic. We have to get RTR guy out of his back yard pond and out on to a course with us. Racing these things is like a drug. We need to get them passed that first heat. Feeling the playing field is relatively even (in my head again) is our best shot.

    We want/need a spec that's simple, doesn't need to change all the time (like limited did), and makes a new guy feel he can be on the course and even compete with a vet. It also needs to have enough performance so as to not bore a vet to tears. A class that is so slow that a guys don't wanna is pointless. Anyone want to run some N1 mono? Apparently not since almost nobody does.

    Stepping down from the soap box.....

    We're just trying to keep people from winding their own Mike. NOT because I personally feel there is an advantage but because some will "perceive" that there is. Back to that perception effecting reality thing.

    We don't want cans to be machined to fit the spec. By that I mean, someone orders a 65mm (for instance) motor totally aware that it's too big but plans to just butcher it to fit.

    However, it doesn't seem right to me either (or fair for that matter) for a buyer to be stuck with a useless motor that doesn't even meet the specifications of it's own data sheets. You order something based on the manufacturers drawings and when it comes in your screwed? It aint right by me. Me personally, I would be fine with fixing a can that doesn't meet the specifications of the very people that built the darned thing.

    There's more than way to look at that too. Let's say I went to a race. Not this one. Any race with a random CD that doesn't know the subtle nuances of the Neu motors for instance. 1412's stuffed into 1415 cans is a good example. Say I ordered for me fleet 1412's based on the drawings and they show up in a longer can. WTH?? The spec sheet says they should be "Xmm". So I machine the can to match the data sheet and go racing. Now I have a motor that is within spec and is exactly as the manufactures data sheet claims. There were some 1412's built in the original 1412 cans per the drawings. Which one was manufactured that way and which one was machined? How does random CD tell me which is legal? Can't tell. They're now exactly the same. Heck, I do know some of the subtle nuances and I doubt seriously that I could tell the two apart.

    Most motors don't come with connectors. That's typically an RTR thing.

    For now I'm thinking any connector, motor within the dims, modification to meet the published dims of the manufacturer are okay. I have no authority to enforce any of this thinking outside of this race.

    BTW I still have no real feel for how the proposal has been received by the BOD. I know they've seen it. Just not sure if they're okay with it......or hate'n it. I know there were some serious FE guys that were not on board with any notion of "spec" classes. For ever and ever amen. So it could get modified, shelved, poop can'd, trial period. I just don't know at this point.
    glue sniffer

  5. #5

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    I cut up a bunch of Lehner 3080's to fit the spec rules.

  6. #6

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    The things that we all do to get a stock motor to run in our Spec setups ( changing connectors, flat spot on shaft, adding cooling jacket) are not a problem. Replacing worn out bearings with stock ones OK, replacing them with high tech ceramic $300 bearings no. We have to rely on the integrity of each racer for compliance. It's a sad commentary if someone is so desperate to win they have to circumvent the rules to do so!
    Last edited by tjcast; 01-12-2018 at 12:35 AM.
    Caution: Does not play well with others!

  7. #7

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    "I still have no real feel for how the proposal has been received by the BOD. I know they've seen it".

    It hasn't been put in front of the BOD. It's my understanding that will happen soon. That's pretty quick BTW, proposals (except safety) aren't usually addressed until the annual meeting @ the Nitro Internats (July 12-15, 2018).

    "We want/need a spec that's simple, doesn't need to change all the time (like limited did). The "spec" didn't need to change IMO, the mentality did. Just sayin,again. lol Done talking about it for now.

    Let's race!!


    Last edited by Doug Smock; 01-10-2018 at 03:25 PM. Reason: tried, it's bigger than me..lol
    TOY BOAT RACER
    Sponsored by Smock Racing
    IMPBA National Records Director
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

  8. #8

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    Gotcha Doug. I know these things take time. I'm being patient. Honest. Hugs.

    The "spec" did change though Doug. By "spec" I mean the NAMBA P Limited set. Proboat changed what they were making and the list had to change. New companies came long and couldn't get on the list. How to get added isn't clear. I know, I proposed the dumb thing. It was too much of a PIA. Some of the motors on the list currently are tough to get. I suppose we could have left the "spec" alone but since IMPBA didn't have one that might have been tough to do. Multiple IMPBA events referenced NAMBA's limited set for racing. Sooooo........if NAMBA is in the process of moving away form the list........and they are. OH! Just thought of something. If IMPBA passed a size spec and then NAMBA followed suite..............everyone on the same page for once! Picture me clutching my chest like Fred Sanford.
    glue sniffer

  9. #9

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    The new rules say 62mm can length but nothing about the stator length. To me, the stator length is more important than can and should have been included in the rules. We all know a 1515 can be cut down to meet the new can length. I know Neu has received orders to have 1412 motors cut down to meet specs. People are already trying to cheat. You should have put in there no longer than 1" stator lengths like real spec motors have if you want an even playing field. Just leaving the rules to can lengths opens the door for cheating.

    Mark

  10. #10

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    No it doesn't Mark. Neu manufactured the 1412's and just threw them in 1415 cans. So the motors came and didn't match his own drawings. Asking them to build them as advertised isn't a crime.

    The spec has to be simple. Opening up motors to measure stators isn't simple. Few manufacturers even publish that data. Also, this has been tested already.

    Side note. Just saw that Hobbico filed for bankruptcy. Who knows what will happen to Aquacraft.
    glue sniffer

  11. #11

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    Actually, what we should have done was leave "as manufactured" completely out of it. Let guys do what ever they want inside the dims.
    glue sniffer

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkF View Post
    The new rules say 62mm can length but nothing about the stator length. To me, the stator length is more important than can and should have been included in the rules. We all know a 1515 can be cut down to meet the new can length. I know Neu has received orders to have 1412 motors cut down to meet specs. People are already trying to cheat. You should have put in there no longer than 1" stator lengths like real spec motors have if you want an even playing field. Just leaving the rules to can lengths opens the door for cheating.

    Mark
    First, a 1515 won't fit the rules because the can diameter is to big.
    Second, what Terry said about the 1412. And we've had a couple guys running 1412's this past season with no advantage observed. A think the main advantage in the 1412 will be durability.
    Third, Cheating??? Them's the rules and if you get a motor to fit within those rules it's not cheating. Furthermore... a motor that anyone else can order and put in their boat... is not cheating.
    Have fun with that....

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    We don't want guys losing to someone they believe is beating the system. We don't want any perception (accurate or not) to deter a guy from participating. In my head............ "spec" racing is a stepping stone between the RTR guy and us racing lunatic. We have to get RTR guy out of his back yard pond and out on to a course with us. Racing these things is like a drug. We need to get them passed that first heat. Feeling the playing field is relatively even (in my head again) is our best shot.

    We want/need a spec that's simple, doesn't need to change all the time (like limited did), and makes a new guy feel he can be on the course and even compete with a vet. It also needs to have enough performance so as to not bore a vet to tears. A class that is so slow that a guys don't wanna is pointless. Anyone want to run some N1 mono? Apparently not since almost nobody does.

    Stepping down from the soap box..... .
    Let’s talk about perception for a moment. “Perception” is somewhat subjective. Most people or groups ARE NOT using facts when drawing their own conclusions, therefore creating perception. For the topic we are discussing; you’re concern with perception is only including motors. What about the perception around props, boat building, boat setup/tuning, batteries and battery specs. There is perception surrounding all of those sub-levels necessary to make a competitive boat.

    Example: there is most defiantly a perception about props… Everyone is hot and heavy over the new style ABC props. The perception is you need those to win a race. What about people B/S’ing their own props. Some do and some don’t. There is most defiantly a perception that you need to pay someone to do it rather than learn yourself in order to be competitive.

    In my experience, the ONLY way you’re going to be able to control perception is to define clear and concise set of rules around what your trying to control. Our SV27 Class is a great example of managing perception. There was a great deal of time invested in the rules to make sure we controlled perception.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    We're just trying to keep people from winding their own Mike. NOT because I personally feel there is an advantage but because some will "perceive" that there is. Back to that perception effecting reality thing.
    We don't want cans to be machined to fit the spec. By that I mean, someone orders a 65mm (for instance) motor totally aware that it's too big but plans to just butcher it to fit.

    However, it doesn't seem right to me either (or fair for that matter) for a buyer to be stuck with a useless motor that doesn't even meet the specifications of it's own data sheets. You order something based on the manufacturers drawings and when it comes in your screwed? It aint right by me. Me personally, I would be fine with fixing a can that doesn't meet the specifications of the very people that built the darned thing.

    There's more than way to look at that too. Let's say I went to a race. Not this one. Any race with a random CD that doesn't know the subtle nuances of the Neu motors for instance. 1412's stuffed into 1415 cans is a good example. Say I ordered for me fleet 1412's based on the drawings and they show up in a longer can. WTH?? The spec sheet says they should be "Xmm". So I machine the can to match the data sheet and go racing. Now I have a motor that is within spec and is exactly as the manufactures data sheet claims. There were some 1412's built in the original 1412 cans per the drawings. Which one was manufactured that way and which one was machined? How does random CD tell me which is legal? Can't tell. They're now exactly the same. Heck, I do know some of the subtle nuances and I doubt seriously that I could tell the two apart.
    If rewinding is your concern then explicitly state it and have a way to check it. A “catch all” one line vague statement doesn’t define specifications. It only creates questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Most motors don't come with connectors. That's typically an RTR thing.
    There are still plenty of motors available that fit the size limitations and have connectors already on the motors. This is nothing more than a formality.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    For now I'm thinking any connector, motor within the dims, modification to meet the published dims of the manufacturer are okay. I have no authority to enforce any of this thinking outside of this race.
    This is exactly why I asked the original question. I am nothing more than an IMPBA member that is trying to understand what makes a motor legal or illegal so I can make an informed decision.

    The modification statement is ONLY present on www.rcracingevents.com. The statement doesn’t show up on the FE Nationals Flier, nor does it show up in the “MMEU 2017 Supplement” which you direct racers to via the flyer.


    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    BTW I still have no real feel for how the proposal has been received by the BOD. I know they've seen it. Just not sure if they're okay with it......or hate'n it. I know there were some serious FE guys that were not on board with any notion of "spec" classes. For ever and ever amen. So it could get modified, shelved, poop can'd, trial period. I just don't know at this point.
    Ignorance is bliss… I’m not on the IMPBA Board, so I will see what you guys have proposed the same time the rest of the membership sees. I am only aware of the proposals because I happen to be within earshot when you asked others for signatures.

    I want to be clear about this... I am simply an IMPBA member that is considering participating in this race. This is an IMPBA FE National event! Because there are no current rules listed in the IMPBA rule book, I must rely what is being published and what has been published up to this point doesn't clearly define what "Spec motors are to be unmodified from the factor" means.

  14. #14

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    Well this is going exactly as I suspected. "As manufactured" is biting me in/on/around the a$$ area.

    What was proposed is what we've been racing for a year now. With the exception of the "as manufactured" bit. Your dead right Mike. Can't check it either. I can't look in the end and know if it was rewound. "Oh look, there's wires in there". Are they the original? Who knows? AQ wound 2030's with two different size wire depending on what month they were made. If I compared two I could conclude one was tampered. I'd be wrong. The proposal will likely need to be modified before it reaches (if it reaches) the membership for voting. I believe the BOD has the ability to do that.

    We're not trying to create stock classes like SV was. Defining props, batteries, bottom work ect isn't the plan.

    Having it on the sign up is us asking people to leave the motors alone like they come.
    glue sniffer

  15. #15

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    I see your points on the "As Manufactured" thing Terry. Seems to be an almost impossible rule to spec and/or enforce all in an attempt to eliminate perception. All it will really do is open the door for people to accuse cheating if they see something slightly different in the wires visible through the rear end. Or if the motor is slight shorter/longer than theirs. As you said... manufactures sometimes change things.

    I say the hell with perception. The rules should be for size limits only and let people do what they’re going to do within those size rules. If someone perceives that a custom wind motor has an advantage, then learn how to wind your own motors. Much like those who perceive an advantage to a hand build sport hydro go ahead and build their own. Or… maybe we will start seeing some entrepreneurs selling their services much like prop work.

    In the end, you can only get so much out of that can size.

    And for those who will say that the size rule makes it more expensive to get into the hobby and compete. First… a cheaper Proboat motor has been the dominant and most desired thus far (from what we are seeing). Second… expensive custom props and hand built boats don’t make it easy to get into the hobby and be competitive either. Should we make rules to eliminate them? NO!

    So anyone who wants a cheap off the shelf class (like the old MMEU SV27)… they should go ahead a write some rules for their club and run them.

    Last point… if custom wind motors have such a possible advantage then why are there not more of those motors represented in the open classes? Simple obvious answer seems to be because there is no advantage and it’s not worth the time and energy it takes to do it.
    Last edited by dethow; 01-11-2018 at 12:03 PM.
    Have fun with that....

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Last point… if custom wind motors have such a possible advantage then why are there not more of those motors represented in the open classes? Simple obvious answer seems to be because there is no advantage and it’s not worth the time and energy it takes to do it.
    Sort of.

    If you think about it, every motor we buy is a custom wind. An AQ 2030 and an AQ 1800 are the same motors with different winding. Same with the PB1500 and 2000. Think TP4060. We have 3 different wind of that same motor running in a single class. We choose them from the chart and TP winds them as ordered. Same with Neu. The fact that I don't wind it with my own grubby mitts doesn't really change that. They're all chosen for the application. In theory, ordering from someone that does it for a living "should" be better than me doing it myself. That is of course, unless the original is a POS.
    glue sniffer

  17. #17

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    I think all stator lengths should be measured prior to racing, then seals placed on the motors so any apparent tampering will be quickly noticed.

    Also, external voltage meters need to be installed that are clearly visible from the drivers stand when racing. This will help eliminate 6S packs being installed in P boats AFTER Terry has wandered around checking pack voltages prior to racing.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Sort of.

    If you think about it, every motor we buy is a custom wind. An AQ 2030 and an AQ 1800 are the same motors with different winding. Same with the PB1500 and 2000. Think TP4060. We have 3 different wind of that same motor running in a single class. We choose them from the chart and TP winds them as ordered. Same with Neu. The fact that I don't wind it with my own grubby mitts doesn't really change that. They're all chosen for the application. In theory, ordering from someone that does it for a living "should" be better than me doing it myself. That is of course, unless the original is a POS.
    Agreed... so why even add the "As Manufactured"?

    Lets move beyond the custom wind question/issue.

    As for cutting down a Neu 1412 or even a 1415 to fit the size rule. Anyone can email/call Lisa at Neutronics have this motor made. By "this motor" I mean a 1415 motor at 62mm length. It is manufactured by a known supplier and can be purchased by anyone who wants to place the order. So that also fits within the "As Manufactured", does it not? Will someone be called a cheater for using a motor that anyone can order/buy? Does one have to bring a receipt for their motors so they can prove it was purchased from a manufacture in its current form?

    Guess I'm trying to make the point that there is nothing someone can/will do to a motor that can't be done by the manufacture. So why even add the "As Manufactured"? It just throws a scoop of dirt in a clean easy to spec rule which makes a lot of mud for people to throw around and debate for years to come.

    Or maybe we add in that it has to be "As Manufactured" and able to be purchased from your local and/or national hobby shop/supplier. But then what stops one from asking their local hobby shop buddy to call Neu and get a supply of these 1415 motors? Or what stops a national/world wide dealer from having a manufacture produce something that maybe local hobby shops can't get? Like the Neu/OSE Raider motors?
    The questions and debate will go on and on....
    Last edited by dethow; 01-11-2018 at 01:00 PM.
    Have fun with that....

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    I think all stator lengths should be measured prior to racing, then seals placed on the motors so any apparent tampering will be quickly noticed.

    Also, external voltage meters need to be installed that are clearly visible from the drivers stand when racing. This will help eliminate 6S packs being installed in P boats AFTER Terry has wandered around checking pack voltages prior to racing.
    Have fun with that....

  20. #20

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    As someone who knows how to wind motors. I can tell you it's done before the stator is glued into the can. After you wind the motor. The stator has to be put in a machine type device that smashes the windings flat. It would be very hard to wind one after the stator has been glued into the can. But a longer stator will go faster than a shorter one and there is plenty of room now for longer stators in the longer can and all it takes is to ask TP or Neu to put one in there. Cheater motor. Also the 1515 I meant to say 1415.

    Mark

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkF View Post
    ...and all it takes is to ask TP or Neu to put one in there. Cheater motor. Mark
    If anyone can ask TP or Neu to put one in there... then how is it a "cheater motor". It's manufactured by a known supplier and anyone can order/buy from that known supplier. Is it a "cheater motor" simply because you don't want to ask a supplier for it, so no one else should be allowed to?

    And like I said above. What stops a national/world wide dealer from having a manufacture produce something special that local hobby shops can't get? Is that a cheater motor? Maybe next thing OSE will do is order up a batch of 1415 motors that fit the size rules. Does that now remove it from your "cheater motors" list because a large dealer is selling them? But what about the local hobby shops? Maybe they can't get what the large dealer got...
    Where does it end???
    Have fun with that....

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Where does it end???
    I guess your response will be "With a 1" max stator length". Right?

    Instead of having to open motors to check stators... just put max can dimensions in place and go with the fact that you can only do so much with a 62mm can. Much like you can only do so much with a 1" stator. Both limit motors but one is much easier to check/spec.

    Max can dimensions allow for existing motors to be used and limit how far future motors can go and still be within the spec limits. Your proposed method of max stator dimensions will add so much work to judging events and possibly eliminate motor choices available under the can size rule. Motors which have thus far proven themselves to not have an advantage.

    And every time a new motor comes out that MAY fit the stator spec both NAMBA and IMPBA officials will have to open and approve it. After all you can't expect novice racers to start open cans and measuring stators.

    Just don't see your limited stator size working out and throwing around phrases like "cheater motors" it not helping. A motor which fits the can size rules and can be purchased from a manufacture by anyone... is NOT a "cheater motor".
    Have fun with that....

  23. #23

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    Sorry that I have contributed to turning this race event thread into another motor spec debate.

    I just think this stator limit idea is silly and along with the preceptions debate... I think it's clear that the "As Manufactured" portion of the rules needs to be eliminated moving forward. Just muddies the water with no real results.

    Also, with Hobbico's bankruptcy taking place it just reinforces the idea that any new motor rules should be inclusive and easy to spec. Otherwise we'll just be back in this debate again in 5+ years.

    Simple dimension limits should withstand the test of time along with the incoming or outgoing of manufactures, suppliers and/or dealers.
    Plus easy for a novice/beginner to know if a motor is legal or not.

    That's my 2cents... and with that I'll get off my box and stop hijacking this race thread. Sorry all.
    Last edited by dethow; 01-11-2018 at 03:03 PM.
    Have fun with that....

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkF View Post
    As someone who knows how to wind motors. I can tell you it's done before the stator is glued into the can. After you wind the motor. The stator has to be put in a machine type device that smashes the windings flat. It would be very hard to wind one after the stator has been glued into the can. But a longer stator will go faster than a shorter one and there is plenty of room now for longer stators in the longer can and all it takes is to ask TP or Neu to put one in there. Cheater motor. Also the 1515 I meant to say 1415.

    Mark
    Well, as you seem to have figured a way to "cheat" perhaps your motors should be checked first at any races you attend.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Sorry that I have contributed to turning this race event thread into another motor spec debate.

    I just think this stator limit idea is silly and along with the preceptions debate... I think it's clear that the "As Manufactured" portion of the rules needs to be eliminated moving forward. Just muddies the water with no real results.

    Also, with Hobbico's bankruptcy taking place it just reinforces the idea that any new motor rules should be inclusive and easy to spec. Otherwise we'll just be back in this debate again in 5+ years.

    Simple dimension limits should withstand the test of time along with the incoming or outgoing of manufactures, suppliers and/or dealers.
    Plus easy for a novice/beginner to know if a motor is legal or not.

    That's my 2cents... and with that I'll get off my box and stop hijacking this race thread. Sorry all.
    You are on a good soapbox...stay on it!

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    Well, as you seem to have figured a way to "cheat" perhaps your motors should be checked first at any races you attend.
    That's uncalled for John.

    Needs to just be dimensions and move on.
    glue sniffer

  27. #27

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    Exactly.....

    When conspiracy theorists start coming out of the woodwork they need to be shut down.

    Can dimensions are all that's needed.

    And if a racer is that pathetically insecure about whats in their Fruit of the Looms that they feel the need to "cheat" to race...well Karma is always there to even things out.

    Some of these concerns being raised here borderline sheer paranoia.

    Its playing with toy boats folks.

  28. #28
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    Wow, this deep discussion certainly can make a newcomer just stay on the beach! It’s just so difficult to get your head wrapped around what most are using. My brother and I had an experience with go carts back in the day. The Sport classes grew at twice the rate because they had very little regulation. The Spec classes started to go away, because the same people would win with all the very expensive chassis/motor combos they would use.. Its like Deja Vu!

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigP View Post
    Wow, this deep discussion certainly can make a newcomer just stay on the beach! It’s just so difficult to get your head wrapped around what most are using. My brother and I had an experience with go carts back in the day. The Sport classes grew at twice the rate because they had very little regulation. The Spec classes started to go away, because the same people would win with all the very expensive chassis/motor combos they would use.. Its like Deja Vu!
    Exactly....The Mich club seems to be the only ones that have spent the time this past season to try out their theories that $$$ doesn't mean victory all the time...on some thread they posted results with motors that were used and there was no apparent edge gained either way, yet there are always some rocket scientists that try and tell them what they should be doing differently.

    Don't like the rules they advertise...stay home.

  30. #30

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    Doby

    You got a problem with me?
    It's not a cheater motor if it's not in the rules so put whatever you want in there until it does. You don't have to open a motor to check stator lengths either. You could just go by weight, you can measure the windings from end to end and only check the motors of the winners like they do at most races.

    Mark

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