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Thread: (Moved)Another P Limited / Spec motor discussion

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by ray schrauwen View Post
    I've seen you buy and sell numerous motors for spec class racing. Those tenshock motors weren't cheap. Are you ableto recover those losses by reselling them? Do you still have them?
    Yes, I do buy and sell a lot. The Tenshock motors are gone. Ended up with those over false specs shown. Took a loss but they're gone.
    Myself and a couple others in MMEU have reached into our pockets to see what's possible. And as for me... I'd like to get past all this discussion and race. So lets get some of these high dollar motors in service and see what actually happens is my thought. The 1412 didn't prove to be dominant in terms of speed. They were good and moved my boats up the scale a little but nothing that would burn the doors off some other cheaper options. The Proboat performed nice and so did that new SSS 6-Pole.

    I didn't end up being able to race much thou and didn't really have time to fully set my boats up for max speed. My conclusions are drawn from my one race event and what another member saw out of the 1412s. Also... I believe Terry threw one of the 1412s in Tyler's sport hydro and didn't see any huge improvement. It ran as great as it always does, but not better. From what I heard...
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  2. #62

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    A claiming rule does not cap what you can pay for a motor. I simply sets a price that deters you from using a motor that costs more than the claiming price. I threw out $125 assuming most of the mass produced motors are under $100. The claiming price could and should be reviewed to reflect the current market. If manufacturer's comes out with better motors, boats or hardware that's positive evolution and should be encouraged. Having some sort of regulation to ensure racing on a budget is positive. Claiming just closes the door on "what ifs". It is not for you to buy the motor to win the next race.
    Again a simple 37X62 class of power seems to have a lot of support. The other end of limiting size is watts. This allows using less expensive ESC's and batteries. This will draw more new people and IC racers to FE power.
    Mic

    Mic Halbrehder
    IMPBA 8656
    NAMBA 1414

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by HTVboats View Post
    Claiming just closes the door on "what ifs".
    Mic
    I don't think it does...
    "What if" my 1415s are put into service or I sell them on eBay and someone else puts them into service because they picked them up for $150ea and don't have much to loose if they get claimed. As I said... it will become a spectacle of people attempting to make a claim at the end of each race.
    This could happen with a variety of situations and just cause a cancer to spread that makes it so a new guy can't compete anyway because they don't have and can't get one of these claimed motors. And even if they have the means to go spend the $235 to get a 1415 of their own... they probably won't because they'd just be afraid it'd be claimed if they won with it.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  4. #64

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    There is the what if. I do not think for a minute anyone is going to get a deal and risk loosing their motor. If that happened once a year it wouldn't affect racing in general.
    Forget claiming just do voltage-length-and motor 37X62. If cut 1415's dominate so be it.
    Mic

    Mic Halbrehder
    IMPBA 8656
    NAMBA 1414

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by HTVboats View Post
    Forget claiming just do voltage-length-and motor 37X62. If cut 1415's dominate so be it.
    Mic
    It does seem to be where we are at... And I don't think the 1415 is going to dominate. And even if it does a little, it probably won't be long until Proboat and others start cramming a 37x62mm can at a better price. Especially if both NAMBA and IMPBA have similar motor rules which will stick for long term.


    And BTW... Terry,
    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Note 2:
    Motor to be an in-runner to a maximum of 37mm x
    62mm, any kv, any speed controller, readily
    available from manufacturers
    (no hand winds, no
    can mods).
    What happens if a motor is discontinued and no longer "readily available from manufacturers"? Maybe soon to be AQs.
    Would people have to pull them from their boats even if still working fine?
    I know ridiculous... But as worded, they would.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  6. #66

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    Why not add a weight?
    Steven Vaccaro

    Where Racing on a Budget is a Reality!

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Vaccaro View Post
    Why not add a weight?
    I'll let you know when I get my final 1415 motors delivered in the next couple weeks, but as of right now... there is only 30 gram difference between one of the heaviest favorite motors (TP3630) and a Neu 1415 in its spec 70mm long can. These weights are with no connectors.
    TP 3630 = 263 grams
    Neu 1415 = 293 grams

    We'll see how close that gets pulled together once my final 62mm long 1415s come in. Plus don't forget that weight could be altered by wire lengths and shaft lengths.

    Lets just assume we set a weight limit at 280 grams to allow for 15 grams in connectors/solder/shrink and leave some play for the TP 3630 to be legal.
    Once those 1415s are cut down they may be in the 280 grams area and I may be able to offset the extra 15 grams for connectors/solder/shrink by cutting down wire lengths and taking as much as possible off the shaft.

    I think its going to be very close and probably not enough difference to set a limit and start having people pull motors out of their boats to be weighed.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    I'll let you know when I get my final 1415 motors delivered in the next couple weeks, but as of right now... there is only 30 gram difference between one of the heaviest favorite motors (TP3630) and a Neu 1415 in its spec 70mm long can. These weights are with no connectors.
    TP 3630 = 263 grams
    Neu 1415 = 293 grams

    We'll see how close that gets pulled together once my final 62mm long 1415s come in. Plus don't forget that weight could be altered by wire lengths and shaft lengths.

    Lets just assume we set a weight limit at 280 grams to allow for 15 grams in connectors/solder/shrink and leave some play for the TP 3630 to be legal.
    Once those 1415s are cut down they may be in the 280 grams area and I may be able to offset the extra 15 grams for connectors/solder/shrink by cutting down wire lengths and taking as much as possible off the shaft.

    I think its going to be very close and probably not enough difference to set a limit and start having people pull motors out of their boats to be weighed.
    30 grams is a big diff between the 2. cutting 10mm off the case length shouldn't make a huge diff in weight.
    Steven Vaccaro

    Where Racing on a Budget is a Reality!

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Vaccaro View Post
    30 grams is a big diff between the 2. cutting 10mm off the case length shouldn't make a huge diff in weight.
    I'll let you know. But there will be about 8 to 10mm coming off case, shaft and wires.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkF View Post
    The new rules say 62mm can length but nothing about the stator length. To me, the stator length is more important than can and should have been included in the rules. We all know a 1515 can be cut down to meet the new can length. I know Neu has received orders to have 1412 motors cut down to meet specs. People are already trying to cheat. You should have put in there no longer than 1" stator lengths like real spec motors have if you want an even playing field. Just leaving the rules to can lengths opens the door for cheating.

    Mark
    BTW… I pulled out my measurements spread sheet when looking up the answer on weights for Steve’s question… I ran into my rotor measurements on various motors. From what I see the rotors in the motors look to be similar in length to the stator as you suggest we limit length to 1” or 25.4mm.

    First of all, the TP3630 front end is not open enough to even get a measurement so that motor would have to be opened.
    Second, just two examples that have a rotor/stator much longer than 25.4mm.
    DYNM 3835 1500kv has a rotor length of 39.1mm
    SSS 3656 2030kv has a rotor length of 35.8mm

    The Neu 1412s rotor is only 30.0mm long.
    But the 1415s rotor is 38.1mm long.

    So you have to set a limit at 40mm to allow for a very popular Dynamite motor and that limit would NOT knock out Neu motors.

    I did confirm the measurements on the Dynamite, SSS, and Neu 1412 motors before writing this. I cannot confirm my measurements on the Neu 1415 right now as it’s not currently in my hands. But the others were confirmed just as I had them in my spread sheet so I’ll assume I have them correct on the 1415 as well.

    I think this is very telling on why the Dynamite 1500kv is such a beast. I wish I had one of the Dynamite 3831 2000kv motors that guys have been using and kicking some butt with. This is the UL-19 motor. I bet that rotor will be at least similar to the Dynamite 3835 motor at 39mm long.
    Last edited by dethow; 01-13-2018 at 03:30 PM.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  11. #71

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    Also... Steve,

    I was looking up some specs for the Dynamite 3831 2000kv and the weight issue is blown up.
    It looks like that motor weighs 296 grams which is more than the Neu 1415 in its spec 70 mm can at 293 grams. I don't know if that includes connectors but either way you'd have to knock that motor out to try and exclude a Neu 1415 with a weight limit.

    But based on all this... there is probably no reason a Neu 1415 made to 62mm long should out perform this $80 Dynamite 3831 motor. The Neu will weigh less and have a similar to slightly smaller rotor/stator.

    DYNM3831.jpg

    OHHH!!!! Just realized the 296 gram weight on the Dynamite 3831 probably includes the cooling can and bullet connectors which comes installed. It'd be great if someone could provide a bare weight with no cooling can and connectors along with a length on the rotor/stator for this motor. May help answer some questions. Connectors wouldn't be a big issue if they stay on. Three 5.5mm bullets weight about 8 grams, so I'm thinking with solder and shrink we'd probably be at about 10 to 11 grams for those.
    We won't have the final answers until my 1415s come in thou.
    Last edited by dethow; 01-13-2018 at 03:37 PM.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  12. #72

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    If you add a parameter like weight it makes removal of the motor mandatory to inspect. Much more complex for contest officials. After a heat or race inspections are rare as it is. 37X62 is done by a simple measuring device. Racers can kind of visually police themselves knowing what motors look like.
    Mic

    Mic Halbrehder
    IMPBA 8656
    NAMBA 1414

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by HTVboats View Post
    If you add a parameter like weight it makes removal of the motor mandatory to inspect. Much more complex for contest officials. After a heat or race inspections are rare as it is. 37X62 is done by a simple measuring device. Racers can kind of visually police themselves knowing what motors look like.
    Mic
    Agreed... we're just playing out the "what ifs".
    And it not only would require the removal of motor, but we'd have to remove the cooling can and collet as they vary in weights. Some cooling cans are a pain to get on and off. So... agreed.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  14. #74

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    You can add weight as a secondary requirement. The only time that would come up is in a big race event. I don't think during club races anyone would care unless there was a solid standout, then it could be checked.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Steven Vaccaro

    Where Racing on a Budget is a Reality!

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    OHHH!!!! Just realized the 296 gram weight on the Dynamite 3831 probably includes the cooling can and bullet connectors which comes installed. It'd be great if someone could provide a bare weight with no cooling can and connectors along with a length on the rotor/stator for this motor. May help answer some questions. Connectors wouldn't be a big issue if they stay on. Three 5.5mm bullets weight about 8 grams, so I'm thinking with solder and shrink we'd probably be at about 10 to 11 grams for those.
    We won't have the final answers until my 1415s come in thou.
    The cooling can off a Dynamite 3835 motor weight 22 grams and if we figure the connectors at 10 grams we would have the Dynamite 3831 motor at about 264 grams which is similar to the TP 3630.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Vaccaro View Post
    You can add weight as a secondary requirement. The only time that would come up is in a big race event. I don't think during club races anyone would care unless there was a solid standout, then it could be checked.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Maybe... Maybe... to keep out any fully stuffed Frankenstein custom made motors, but I don't believe a weight limit will exclude a Neu 1415 motor.

    But with that said there IS more room to be used in a 62mm can then even a 1415 will use. Example being that the rotor in the Dynamite 3835 is 3.5mm closer in the front than the Neu 1415 is. I think a custom Frankenstein motor could be made to hold as much as a 45mm rotor/stator. Which is 6mm longer than the Dynamite and 7mm longer than the Neu 1415.

    That is coming from my measurements taken on the Dynamite 3835 which has the least amount of space from front and rear to rotor ends.
    The rotor is 7.2mm from front and 9.6mm from rear. Can is 55.9mm long, so 55.9 minus 7.2 and minus 9.6 equals a 39.1mm rotor.

    With these measurements applied to a 62mm can the results would be... 62.0 minus 7.2 and minus 9.6 equals a 45.2mm rotor.

    So I don't think you have a bad point here Steve. Maybe there should be some kind of weight limit in the 285 gram area and maybe even just call it an even 300 grams. This comes from the TP 3630 at 263 grams and estimated Dynamite 3831 at 264 grams and then add 15 grams for connectors/solder/shrink and we're at 279 grams.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    So I don't think you have a bad point here Steve. Maybe there should be some kind of weight limit in the 285 gram area and maybe even just call it an even 300 grams. This comes from the TP 3630 at 263 grams and estimated Dynamite 3831 at 264 grams and then add 15 grams for connectors/solder/shrink and we're at 279 grams.
    I would take (current heaviest motors) a TP3630, add 5.5 bullets to the stock length wires and weigh it. Also weigh a Dynamite 3831 with the factor installed 5.5 bullets but with the cooling can removed. See where they are and maybe add 5 to 10 grams for slight manufacturing differences and maybe some future products but still kept within reason to not knock out existing/current motors from being able to compete.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

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