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Thread: Common caps for two escs?

  1. #61
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    Here's what I posted off site, looks like some other folks may be asking the same questions. This has a separated battery pack, but you may find the information about the control side insightful.

    I got a pretty good run on this and have this PDF to discuss. One of the things to note on this schematic is that the ESC batteries are in no way tied to the control electronics. The ESC’s common ground plate is also isolated. I show a separate battery to run the receiver. My thinking on that is an External BEC is typically a switching voltage regulator. These devices work by producing short bursts of current through an inductor to translate that charge to another voltage/current. They produce a lot of noise, that’s why most of the come with those little “rings”, which are ferrite toroidal cores. The power is wrapped around them to suppress the noise these devices create. Since a dual motor configuration is by nature, a noisy electrical environment, it doesn’t make sense to use a “noisy device” into the Receiver, the very thing we are trying to make noise immune.

    Also, The ESC’s depicted on this drawing are LV ESC W/BEC types, meaning they have an internal BEC. This is very common when running ESC’s common to the 4S battery range, which is probably what you guys are running per motor. If so, then the batts are 4S type each, for a total of 2 in the system. Each ESC is using its internal BEC to bias the output of the opto-isolator associated with it. It is the ONLY thing these BEC’s are used for. As you can see, the grounds are tied for the ESC’s power input at the common “plate” of the Cap Bank. If you choose to use wires, then realize you are degrading the ripple reduction effort by as much as 4X. I’m going to try and explain this. Wires are round, and as such, any time an electrical current flows through them, they can easily create a circular magnetic field around the outside of the conductor which has a closed path. By establishing this magnetic field, you are turning that “wire” into an inductor. The only way to remove the inductive effect is to remove the closed, circular path of the magnetic field. This inductance greatly adds to the ripple problem. Now a Flat Plate, not being round in nature and being designed with the correct length/width size, makes it very difficult for that magnetic field to close in upon itself, or wrap around the whole plate. What the fields end up doing is to form many, little circular fields on the face of the plate. These consecutive fields, end up cancelling each other and viola, the magnetic field’s effect disappears! Read that over a few times, it took me a long time to understand this.

    Also note, that the receiver’s power (+) is not required to bias the inputs to the dual opto-isolator. The power from the receiver battery is basically all being used by the rudder servo, which is good, leaves more power for servos with higher torque outputs. I always recommend putting a small, electrolytic cap on the receiver directly. That may have to get soldered into the wire leads if you don’t have enough free ports on the receiver. Rudder servos in boats pull big-time current pulses, and this can cause a power fluctuation in the receiver and glitch it into performing incorrectly. (Like steering into a stone wall or the shore).

    The most probable cause of ESC failure is power disturbances on the control side, which glitches the microprocessor inside the ESC. It will lose track of where the correct motor position is and will no doubt over amp the ESC as it tries to get back on track. To relate to this better, you may search for threads written by airplane guys where they report blowing the ESC when landing the airplane and the prop grounds out on touch down and stops rotating. This stops the prop and the same problem occurs, ESC loses true position, guesses wrong and BLAM! So it’s imperative that the ESC has a clean source of controller power (on the 3-terminal wire).

    Well, let me know where you agree and disagree. If you guys need part numbers and such let me know. I can look some stuff up.

    Note: This is NOT the new schematic I'm doing in response to Larry and Jesse. But it shows a good loop isolator scheme on the control side. These are LV ESC W/BEC's
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #62
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    Yes, as I have stated, they are disconnected and I am using a 2s rx pack.
    Per suggestion, the orange rectangles are Copper plate 1/2" by 1/16" I intend to attach to some non-conductive plate; plates were obtained from the links in one of Craig's posts.

    This thread is getting better and better!!
    Last edited by Jesse J; 01-17-2018 at 09:02 PM. Reason: Copper plate details
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  3. #63
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    A challenge!!! Nice. You guys know I can’t believe none of us have really come up with any of this or at least figured out it can be a problem. It is kind of like running the twin setup with both BEC’s. It may run ok for awhile but at some point it will give a stutter and POP!!!

    I know of a number of people whom have lost one ESC of a pair with no real explanation. I am one. There is inline fixes(or has been) that I guess air guys have made as shown in post #36. but it never transferred to here

  4. #64
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    I've got a new schematic. The copper plates at the caps are good, but needing to connect both batteries together will somewhat nullify that. This is something a bit different. I needed to make just a few changes to my original simulation and my hunch looks good. So we know wires can become inductive and that under normal conditions, is not what we want. But sometimes you can use it to an advantage, if applied properly. This design splits the cap bank into two sections, for each side. I show one cap at each battery. The batteries are tied together, then longer wire runs are made to the ESC, where there is a two-cap bank on each ESC. Those wires running from the batteries on the top need to be at least 4" long, to achieve the correct inductance value. This creates a complex type of electrical filter, known as a Pi Filter. It is a C-L-C combination, and is very good at holding noise at a point of interest, which is the ESC's. The noise I'm talking about is the high current ripple voltage caused by each ESC, and it's frequency is dependent on the speed and coil switching sequence of each motor. These will never be the same, so we want each ESC to essentially "see" its own ripple, and not that of the other motor. This circuit accomplishes that by using the split capacitors and tying them together through an inductor, which is in this case, at least a 4" length of wire of #10AWG. Sounds like you two (Larry and Jesse) are running opto-coupled ESC's on both sides, which is the superior selection. If your running LV ESC's w/BEC, then you should build the opto-isolator board as shown to break the ground connection that is inside the ESC's of this type, from the ground signal on the speed input connector (control input) and the ground on the battery input. Its that connection that is glitching your microprocessors, as I mention on the previous post. Simulation says this will work guys!
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Quote Originally Posted by srislash View Post
    A challenge!!! Nice. You guys know I can’t believe none of us have really come up with any of this or at least figured out it can be a problem. It is kind of like running the twin setup with both BEC’s. It may run ok for awhile but at some point it will give a stutter and POP!!!

    I know of a number of people whom have lost one ESC of a pair with no real explanation. I am one. There is inline fixes(or has been) that I guess air guys have made as shown in post #36. but it never transferred to here
    I've been losing uP's for 30 years! I just really got on top of this problem over the last 10 years. This is what I do... The airplane guys do have an in-line fix, but it doesn't work all the time and their motors are usually drawing much less current, which makes a big difference. At our current levels, if the uP looses position, you're pretty much going to let the magic smoke out! We got no safeties, and I haven't been able to even design in a practical fuse without incurring big time power loses. We're hanging it all out!

  6. #66
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    I try to follow you. It brings back memories of school.
    Thanks for the time you spend. The proposal is very interesting.
    This Saturday I will start with the double opto.

  7. #67
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    I was able to find about 4N35 near home to be combined.
    It works, just that I do not have an oscilloscope to verify the signals.

  8. #68
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    Craig, I consult: I have a 4pls futaba and allows to connect separately each ESC to the RX. It could be a good option too. How should I modify the resistances on both sides?

  9. #69
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    Nice job! If you have separate outputs for each ESC from the receiver, then just make each input connect to its corresponding output. There is no need to change any resistance values.

    The circuit should work good and notice I was able to design out the inverting transistors, while making the circuit have better edge transitions. The last schematic I posted is what I’m going to use on my dual. The guys here have been describing non-matching battery drains, which is a problem when using the batteries in an independent manner, as originally shown on the first schematic. So I would say the 3-terminal plate cap Bank is not the best choice. What do you think Golfito?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfito View Post


    I was able to find about 4N35 near home to be combined.
    It works, just that I do not have an oscilloscope to verify the signals.
    I love it! You do great work! I used bread boards for years like you have there, brings back some great memories. Looks like the circuit is clean and can be adapted for the dual. Are you going to build it onto some pad-per-hole PC board and solder it all in? That’s what I was planning to do...

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse J View Post
    Yes, as I have stated, they are disconnected and I am using a 2s rx pack.
    Per suggestion, the orange rectangles are Copper plate 1/2" by 1/16" I intend to attach to some non-conductive plate; plates were obtained from the links in one of Craig's posts.

    This thread is getting better and better!!
    On high current (over 150a) parallel up those plates, to make it 0.125” thick. Plate needs to be 1/2” at its smallest width, or choke point to pass the current unfettered. I find it easier than soldering wire, and if you glue the bottom side of the plates to some FG insulation board, makes a great assembly! You are right on the battery drain problem, that is not acceptable...

  12. #72
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    Golfito, does your 4-chan Futaba system have channel mixing on the transmitter?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigP View Post
    I love it! You do great work! I used bread boards for years like you have there, brings back some great memories. Looks like the circuit is clean and can be adapted for the dual. Are you going to build it onto some pad-per-hole PC board and solder it all in? That’s what I was planning to do...


    Thank you! here it is known as "protoboard".
    If I am also remembering how to use it. I'm pretty rusty.
    If today I bought some perforated plates to try to put it together. But it was a complicated day, I can not reason or think much ... jajajaj
    With respect to the TX, if you can mix channels. is a 4pls futaba and the RX (R304SB T-FHSS 4-channel telemetry enabled receiver)
    http://manuals.hobbico.com/fut/4pls-manual.pdf
    From page 70. Do not use it yet. I did not program it either. I had it reserved for when this ship ends.

    I also have the modified flysky / turnigy. That allows you to do channel mixes and use Rx from 3ch, to 8ch. But I do not want to use it on this ship.

    And returning to the resistors of the circuit ... then it is not necessary to modify the resistance that is in parallel and the one that is in series in the circuit (anodo-cathode).

    I hope not to say nonsense, to top it all, I use the google translator.

  14. #74
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    I understand you good! You go through much effort to communicate with us. Hard Work! Yes, your Futaba has the right stuff, it’s here: Dual ESC Mixing "DUAL ESC" .................................................. .74

    Read that... you can program the inside motor to run slower on turns, really helps the boat turn! It mixes the signal to each ESc with the rudder control. You can try it and bench test. Once it work right, then you program how much “mix” to use. You have to run the ship for that. The Flysky I don’t think mixes right for a boat. It’s made for 4 wheel steering, on a car. I got one and couldn’t make it work after many hours trying.

    No resistor changes. Instead of running both channels from one Channel, just disconnect that parallel wire and run one of the opto inputs to your other reciever channel. Just add a wire!

  15. #75
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    I get it. Thanks for the tips. I did not know, I did not know it.
    I hope to start tomorrow.
    An oscilloscope would be ideal for checking the signals. But it is an instrument that I could never buy. About 20 years ago I used it a lot with cars.

  16. #76
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    Craig

    The 4pls futaba and the RX (R304SB T-FHSS 4-channel telemetry enabled receiver)
    Will NOT work for the inside motor to run slower on turns
    You need to reprogram the transmitter for that.(Futaba does not have a program worked out yet for the 4PLS radio)

    The dual mixing on the 4PLS is for Truck crawler's with two motors and two ESC's
    You have to step up to the next radio in the chain (Add about $200)

    I asked Futaba about steering and reducing the inside motor to run slower on turns with the 4PLS.
    Above is the answer they gave me.

    Unless you have figured something out?

    Larry
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  17. #77
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    Well damn! That’s the same road block I got to with my FlySky! I did find a little PCB that is tiny that you hook the rudder and throttle channels from your receiver to, and it provides two outputs for the left and right motor. It has a little pot on it to adjust the mix. Mix range is about 30-70%, adequate I think for most boats. Thanks for the info Larry

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfito View Post
    I get it. Thanks for the tips. I did not know, I did not know it.
    I hope to start tomorrow.
    An oscilloscope would be ideal for checking the signals. But it is an instrument that I could never buy. About 20 years ago I used it a lot with cars.
    It’s an essential piece of gear for me... sorry to hear getting one there is so difficult. Read Truckpull’s post above. That transmitter won’t mix like I said. I just saw the table of contents and figured it did, I was wrong! But I can help with that! I’ll post a part number/source for a PCB that does this function. Read my description above...

  19. #79
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    Craig

    In you last schematic, you show a Dual Channel OPTO - Isolator

    Where can I get one?
    Do you or can you build one for me?

    My boat is wired about the same as you schematic except for the Isolator.

    And that little PCB unit will be in my future also.

    Larry
    Last edited by TRUCKPULL; 01-20-2018 at 01:59 AM.
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
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  20. #80
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    Thanks guys.
    http://www.mtroniks.net/prod/RC-Accessories/ZGM.htm
    You can get to serve yourself Larry.

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfito View Post
    Thanks guys.
    http://www.mtroniks.net/prod/RC-Accessories/ZGM.htm
    You can get to serve yourself Larry.
    Oh man, I was going to go electronic parts shopping today but this will save a ton of time.

    Larry, the channel mixer will take a little playing with and may slow the corners slightly but should be worth it. I had one made for me awhile back for the old Komodo build. I went to SAW running and someone with a larger boat needed the mixer more than I do I don’t have one in service now.

  22. #82
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    Shawn and Larry, the module looks good! It has more in there and I like to keep the circuit at a minimum, to help eliminate potential problems. That shipping from EU can’t be cheap.

    Look guys, this is such a simple thing for me, I have so many parts laying around and about 1/2hr to build each one. I will build each of you guys one if you just cover shipping. I would be honored to help you guys out. Let me know, I can get them in the mail Monday. I’m going to look up that stand-alone mixer and will post a thread to get it. I think Taiwan, about 1-1/2 week shipping. If you want one, then PM me your address.

  23. #83
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    Wow, that is so nice Craig. So you would need one to go inline(instead of Y) or one on each esc? And same question for the Mtroniks one since I ordered 10 of them. I know, impulsive!! I could cancel the order.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by srislash View Post
    Wow, that is so nice Craig. So you would need one to go inline(instead of Y) or one on each esc? And same question for the Mtroniks one since I ordered 10 of them. I know, impulsive!! I could cancel the order.
    Well, the schematic is for a dual, but you bring up a good point. It would be beneficial in any boat, single or dual. So I'll make you two singles. They will have 3-terminal header strips, like the Receiver, just plug in-line. Remember, they are not required for Opto-Coupled ESC's, that have no BEC.

    The sure fire way to tell if you should use one is to use your ohm meter and see if there is a connection from the ground on the signal cable for the ESC to the (-) battery side on the ESC. If its an open, you don't need it. Don't touch the metal tips on the Ohm Meter while measuring, it will read you body's conductivity and give you a confusing reading. This should read a complete open...

  25. #85
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    Here's the link to the mixer. They built it for tanks and bots (much bigger market than boats) but will work on boats great. On first run, turn the pot all the way CCW. Do NOT force the pot past the stop! Just turn very lightly until it stops. These pots will not take any rough handling, like all micro, surface mount pots. If you need tighter turns, then start to turn back CW until you have it where you want it.

    https://www.banggood.com/DasMikro-RC...r_warehouse=CN
    Last edited by CraigP; 01-23-2018 at 12:32 PM.

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by srislash View Post
    Wow, that is so nice Craig. So you would need one to go inline(instead of Y) or one on each esc? And same question for the Mtroniks one since I ordered 10 of them. I know, impulsive!! I could cancel the order.
    Shawn, I'll send you a parts list, or email it. These are so simple to build, once you have these I think you can copy it no problem. Once you have your parts, then just build as needed!

  27. #87
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    Hello Craig, I can wait for the design of the mixer and build it. Some components can be found in my city. I could try with one to see how they work.

  28. #88
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    I want to tell him that I would like to have the construction scheme to make it in my house. As I do with the opto.

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  30. #90
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    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

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