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Thread: Who wants to build a semi-scale all-wood micro hydro?

  1. #91
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    Thanks Jim,

    I'll send them a note today.

    Here's what will work, let's see if they will print them in this tiny scale.
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    Last edited by Dr. Jet; 01-21-2019 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Add photo
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  2. #92
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    hopefully they wont loose too much detail in the size you need
    "Our society strives to avoid any possibility of offending anyone except God.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimClark View Post
    hopefully they wont loose too much detail in the size you need
    We shall see.

    Progress photos. Note the cowl on Prototype II looks closer to scale, but I may revise it slightly before the final production drawings are completed.
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  4. #94
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    ////
    Last edited by Norwest; 02-12-2019 at 07:40 AM. Reason: info

  5. #95
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    This looks great Dr jet. My only comment is that from a scale perspective the stacks is are too far forward see here
    https://www.google.com/search?q=atla...ELBn1f0BmfsSnM

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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
    Norwest here! I will take just the hydro with no equipment , except where motor and lipos go and size of lipos. I like to enjoy building from scratch. Thanks!
    Let me finish prototype testing (another week or so) and I'll let everybody know about availability. The kit will include a motor mount and I really think I should include the 1/16" stainless steel tube and 1/32" wire to make the wire drive and water-tight rudder push rod.

    I highly recommend helicopter outrunner motors for a number of reasons. They are fan-cooled which eliminates the need for water-cooling plumbing (takes up a lot of valuable space). They have a lot of torque for a given Kv so they can spin a decent-sized propeller. They are compact (short). And lastly, they can be had for a very low cost (sometimes under $10). These's no need for a $100 NeuMotor in these, the cheap Chinese outrunners will easily over-power the hull.

    See photos for battery, ESC, servo, and Rx locations. I've modified the motor mount side supports and bulkheads to facilitate putting the battery and ESC in the shown locations.
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimClark View Post
    This looks great Dr jet. My only comment is that from a scale perspective the stacks is are too far forward see here
    https://www.google.com/search?q=atla...ELBn1f0BmfsSnM

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
    Yes and no. Look where the stacks are in relation to the hole for the engine air intake. I think the "scale" issue is that the cowl is too long. Nothing a few minutes on the belt sander can't solve.
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  8. #98
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    After Jim brought it up, I've been looking at the cowl and he's right: Something was amiss. Realize, I essentially traced the cowl shape from Garry Finlay's plan without studying photos of the actual boat. After I looked at a lot of photos, I realized that I would have to make the hatch quite a bit wider to make it work. I didn't want to do that for a lot of structural and building issues. I decided to keep the hatch as-is and just deal with a "skinny" cowl.

    Well, The existing cowl got a short ride on the belt sander and lost about half an inch. It looks much better now. The laser-cutting drawings received a similar slimming process. Regarding to the actual building process, I mounted the stuffing tube and even went so far as to order some blue paint for the hull.

    I've been perplexed as to how I could sand the bottom of the hull in the area between the air traps and the tunnel sump while keeping everything sharp and square. Note: As it sits right now, some of the edges are sharp enough to draw blood!! The wood sanding blocks I had been using just weren't the ticket. I bought some Delrin blocks that should do the job. They have good sharp square corners, they don't flex, the "un-sandpapered" sides won't scratch, they're waterproof for when I use wet-or-dry; they're the ticket. I have adhesive sandpaper in several grits and I use spray adhesive to attach the wet-or-dry. The clean, hard, sharp edges of the Delrin blocks allow me to trim the sandpaper right to the edge with an X-Acto knife without the sandpaper going past the edge to create a groove on the surface adjacent to the one being sanded.

    LOTS of primer going on with the occasional schmear of really "dry" epoxy/Cab-O-Sil mix. It's a drag that the epoxy takes 24 hours to go off unless I heat it. I've discovered my oven will go to 125° and the balsa/plywood is just fine at that temperature. Think putting it in a rock garden in Phoenix sometime in August.....

    Photos to follow.
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    Default Shortened Cowl

    What a difference half an inch makes.


    UPDATE: I've also lowered the height of the cowl at the rear. It's starting to look like something now.
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    Last edited by Dr. Jet; 01-25-2019 at 07:04 PM.
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  10. #100
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    Default Winging It

    It's time to fit the wings. Each fin/wing is a sandwich of 1/16" balsa and 1/32" ply. The ply has notches in it to allow for the insertion of 1/16" carbon fiber rods. The hull and wing mounting holes in the fins will get pieces of 3/32" brass tube that the CF rods will go into to hold everything in place.
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  11. #101
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    I looked at the new photos where stuffing tube and coupler area and am wondering the space allowed is too much. I run flex of which I leave 3/8" space. Will the wire flex with that spacing?

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
    I looked at the new photos where stuffing tube and coupler area and am wondering the space allowed is too much. I run flex of which I leave 3/8" space. Will the wire flex with that spacing?
    That's not the wire between the coupler and the stuffing tube; it is a stainless steel tube (with the 1/32" wire glued inside). Remember, this is about a 200~250 Watt system; the stainless steel tube is more than stiff enough for this application and the brass stuffing tube provides excellent support. I've used a similar arrangement in the Micro Scat Cat Twin with great success.

    The key to making this system work is the alignment of the motor and the stuffing tube. I mount the motor and coupler in place and use a piece of 1/16" brass tube or straight music wire of the proper length to mark the location of the exit hole on the floor of the hull (I made a slit in the floor piece to get you close). When I make the hole, I make it slightly oversize to allow for some adjustment. Then I put the stainless steel tube into the coupler (it will stick out of the bottom of the hull) and insert the stuffing tube over the SS tube. I rotate the motor to look for any horizontal or vertical movement of the stuffing tube. If it does, something is out of alignment and I enlarge the exit hole as necessary.

    When everything looks copacetic, I tack the stuffing tube into place with a TINY drop of CA, then remove the SS tube. I re-insert the SS tube to make certain it slides directly into the motor coupler. If it doesn't, there will be friction in the system and I re-adjust and repeat the procedure until the alignment is perfect. Once it is, I re-assemble the SS tube back into the coupler to help hold everything in place. Then, I tack the balsa-1/32" ply-balsa sandwich stuffing tube support in place, and epoxy everything.

    One final note: K&S does not make 1/16" SS tube. After searching long and hard, I have located a source for high quality 304 stainless steel tube. I will include enough in the final kits to make the drive shaft and the rudder pushrod, which uses a nearly identical arrangement.
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    Last edited by Dr. Jet; 01-26-2019 at 01:04 PM. Reason: Add info RE: Revised drawings
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  13. #103
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    Default Better Cowl Profile

    Here's the "Improved" cowl profile. I think Jim will approve. I do need to make it a bit thinner aft of the exhaust stacks though. It never ends.....
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  14. #104
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    Default Somebody Stop Me!

    So as I'm getting close to finishing the design of this kit, I got to thinking: What's next??

    I have an idea!!
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  15. #105
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    Well, for "ships and giggles", I started working up some drawings for a classic round-nose shovel (actually, there is a tiny bit of a point on the nose, but I digress....). The first thing I noticed is there is a WHOLE LOT lower parts count. I'm also going to eliminate the 1/32" ply parts that were in the Atlas and substitute 1/16" ply instead, in an effort to keep cost and complexity down. This should be a snap to build.

    But, I think there may be an issue; or better stated: A challenge. The MHZ and H&M micro shovels were occasionally prone to blowing over with a small 3000 Kv motor and 6~7 NiMh 1000mah cells turning a 29mm x 1.6P prop. I'm planning on powering the Atlas with a considerably larger 3550Kv motor on 2S LiPos and will start with smaller props. The Atlas, with a more modern "pickle fork" hull may do just fine with the additional power, but a light-weight shovel may get a lot of "air time" That's where the challenge will be: Keeping them on the water.

    I'm not going to produce any parts until the Atlas and the Twin Cat are finished, but I will be refining the design so I can produce a prototype kit quickly.
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  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Jet View Post
    ...........

    I'm not going to produce any parts until the Atlas and the Twin Cat are finished, but I will be refining the design so I can produce a prototype kit quickly.
    Unless, of course, someone else wants to volunteer to build one...
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  17. #107
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    Oh, OK..... The enthusiasm this project is receiving is truly underwhelming. I'll build this one too.

    I am having a hard time fitting everything onto the plywood sheet though. I managed to fit 2 Atlas hulls on a sheet of 12" x 24" x 1/16" ply with extra material left over. The shovelnose has taller bulkheads that eat up a lot of real estate and since I opted to make the sponson bottoms from 1/16" ply to eliminate the 1/32" ply, it just makes it worse. In the end, I may go back to 1/32" ply for the sponson bottoms if that will allow me to make the 1/16" work for everything else. I may have to get real creative with the layout to make everything work.

    Here's some photos of my (uncompleted, but pending) 1/16 scale 1957 "Short Circuit" built from these plans. The 1/20 scale might not allow for "exposed engine" hulls due to the small interior space and the electric motor location.
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  18. #108
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    Default Back to the Atlas

    Getting back to the Atlas...... The hull is nearly done. Just a tiny bit more filling, priming, and sanding to go. I copied the wing from Garry's plans and it turned out too short. I'll have to make another, and I've modified the plans accordingly.
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  19. #109
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    Both look great but the Short Circuit is the willer in my opinion.

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  20. #110
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    Thanks Jim. The Short Circuit model above is from Garry Finlay's 1/16 scale plans that I've now reduced to 1/20 scale and will use to make a 1/20 1957 Hawaii Kai III next. I have all the parts drawn up in AutoCAD, all I need to do is add retention gaps and call my friend Mike to get them laser cut. The shovelnose will be a faster build due to fewer parts and less fiddling.
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  21. #111
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    Default Getting it Right

    Based on Jim Clark's recommendations, I contacted Jim Stevens for some detail parts. Before I go any further, let me say Jim S. is a great guy and a pleasure with whom to work. He bent over backwards for my little project and really helped me out. While Jim S. couldn't print the 1/20 Merlin exhaust stacks with enough detail, he did print an entire 1/20 scale Merlin engine. And in addition to that, he did the one thing that held the 1/16 Short Circuit in limbo: Exhaust stacks for that too!! . Lastly, he printed a 1/20 scale "vintage" driver that is PERFECT! Thanks Jim, I will include your contact info in any kits I produce.

    Although Jim couldn't print the stacks with enough detail, I think the ones I made from 3/16" tube will look just fine. Jim C. noted that my exhaust stacks didn't look right and I cut down the cowl length and they looked better. but still not 100% "Right" (I am an anal-retentive perfectionist ). In comparing my homemade stacks with the 3-D printed Merlin engine, it was instantly obvious that mine were spaced too close together. I'll re-make them in the right spacing and I think everything will be good.

    I included the side scoops in the laser cutting, but upon inspection, they looked too short. Production kits will include revised scoops.

    For those of you interested in a kit, please be patient. I want everything to be right; I'm getting close.

    The next project (a.k.a. the Vintage Shovel) will spend a lot less time in R&D. I'll bet Jim Stevens could 3-D print an Allison too......
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  22. #112
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    Default Bill is "In the Office"....

    .... And his stacks look better too!
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  23. #113
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    The fins I copied from Garry's plans look a little short. I'm not going to make new ones for this build, but I added 1/4" to the ones on the plan. I've made separate drawings for the 1/32" wire drive and watertight 1/32" wire pushrod to include with the instructions.
    Last edited by Dr. Jet; 01-31-2019 at 05:52 PM.
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  24. #114
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    OK, paint on the Atlas and Bill is drying and I'm thinking about the next project, the vintage shovelnose. I've been thinking of doing the Hawaii Kai III instead of something more dear to my heart: The Short Circuit for one reason. When I built the Short Circuit, all I could find were black and white photos or the occasional, very grainy long-distance shots. According to Lesliefield, the Short Circuit was a yellow hull with a pink deck (later renamed to "Miss Detroit" with the same color scheme. I've seen black and white photos where the deck is lighter than the hull. I've seen a 1/10 model that was all yellow.

    I finally found THE photo I've been seeking for a long time in a video. Check out some of the iterations I found.
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  25. #115
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    Here's the color video capture I found today. I'm not certain about the year though. It might be 1957, although if it was renamed to Miss Detroit in those colors, 1959 makes sense.
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  26. #116
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    I can help with that Dr back when I find the answer

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  27. #117
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    I've finished the plans to laser cut parts for the 1/20 scale vintage shovelnose hydro. This kit will build the Hawaii Kai III, the Tempo VII, the Miss Detroit, The Short Circuit and a number of other hulls from the 1950~1960 era.

    Because of the wood sizes and parts layout, I will need to make multiples of 2 kits at a time. I'll build Prototype I, does anyone here want to be a guinea pig to build Prototype II? Kit cost will be my cost only plus shipping.


    UPDATE: I'm in touch with my friend Mike who has the laser. I've sent him the files and have started the process.
    Last edited by Dr. Jet; 02-01-2019 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Add update
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  28. #118
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    Bill got his last coat of paint today. Remember, he's a tiny 1/20 scale guy now..... He's about 3-1/4" tall and there's only about 1/3 of him in the boat.
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    Last edited by Dr. Jet; 02-02-2019 at 12:31 AM.
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  29. #119
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    Default Updates, Updates, and More Updates

    I'm talking with my buddy Mike on cutting some mini shovelnose parts. I should be ready to pull the trigger in a few days. Still looking for a guinea pig to build one.

    The Atlas plans are ready, I just need to do some testing on the hull and see if I can capture some videos. It's raining today and tomorrow, so it might be next weekend before I get the opportunity.

    I think the cowl on the prototype Atlas is going to get another ride on the belt sander.

    I have plenty of stock on hand to include wire drive materials in either kit plus 100% of all the wood. Just add your hardware and radio gear.

    Jim Stevens (the 3-D printing guy) has successfully printed a 1/50 scale Allison (See photos). At 2.5 times the size, a 1/20 scale motor should look REALLY good in a 1/20 scale shovelnose.

    Come on boys and girls, forget about NAMBA, AMPBA, or any other alphabet group with more rules, rule changes, and such than Carter has pills. Go out and have more fun than a human being should be allowed to have and do it CHEAP!! Build a semi-scale mini hydro where a motor, ESC, and a LiPo battery can be purchased for under $30.
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    Last edited by Dr. Jet; 02-02-2019 at 04:21 PM.
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  30. #120
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    Dr Jet pm me your email I have some short circuit info to send you.
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