MGM esc programming problem

[T.S.Davis]

That's one of the few on the IMPBA motor list for scale. Pretty rare bird there. Aren't those 8 pole Howard? I remember you fighting this to run on a Schulze.

[T.S.Davis]

Found it. 8 pole. Low kv but you didn't loosed any rpm under load with them being 8 poles.

[RaceMechaniX]

So how to you work the math when you read the phase current top get dc current? I am spiking 900 amps some times with my 4S setups and it was hard for me to belive. That setup is a Neu 1530 .5Y, MGM 400-63, 4S3P 3300maH cells 65C/130C, ABC 1814, 11 pound 34 inch sport hydro. This hydro runs around 67MPH to 70MPH. I onlu have problem on the launch getting up to speed once it is at full speed it is OK from there on.

This is the boat. I have ran the same esc in this boat for going on three seasons. The only better ESC IMO is the 40.160

Hey Randy, Thanks for the link on the build. I was also attracted to the YEP because it has a similar design as the 40.160 and YGE controllers. However it is missing the copper clad core which is what makes the old Schulze so good.

I am not too surprised about the 900A phase currents with a 1530 0.5Y. Those are huge amperage motors and at 11 lbs that's a lot of weight to push around.
The MGM's log input current and phase current. It's best to download the data and open in excel. You can then plot the current over the run.
Here is a screenshot my one of my logs. Column D, shows the input current. Column Y, not shown in the pic is the phase current.

MGM 25063 1527 1D data.jpg

[Peter A]

I have both the YEP 120 and 180 esc's, as yet unused. I plan to use (either one of) them in an offshore endurance boat, so average current draws should be less than 50A on 10S. What bothers me the most with these esc's is the minimal amount of cooling, just a brass tube down each side. Would it be a good idea to make up some cooling plates to put on top of the fets, similar to the old T-120 style?

[RaceMechaniX]

Peter,

Most FET's that we see in use for hobby speed controllers transfer their internal heat through the solder pad on the bottom. The PCB's will have 2 or more layers, 4 is pretty typical with 105um copper traces in middle layer and 70um on the top and bottom. Thermal via's carry both the current and heat. Ideally the PCB is only populated on one side so the chill plate can be directly underneath the switches. However, this would double the PCB area making the controller quite a bit bigger.

Schulze used a 1mm copper clad core which is very expensive to produce but it allowed the center row of FET's to get their heat out to the edges.
This picture clearly shows the copper core.IMG_6860.jpg

Schulze switched to a more traditional FR4 board and this greatly decreased their performance even through the switches were newer. However, the board could not remove the heat.

Fun fact, each switch dissipates about 20W of heat. So on ESC's like the YEP180HV with 30 switches, that is 600W of heat the controller is trying to get rid of.

Some of us do add cooling plates top and bottom to remove heat, but it is a band aid.

[Peter A]

Thanks Tyler
The YEP's were on special at HobbyKing so I grabbed them as they should suit the application. I will probably use the 180 as it should not need to work as hard with the low current draw, however it will be doing runs of 20 mins +, so heat build up may still be an issue and need extra cooling. I will only know when I get to testing next year. The motor is a TP 4060 580kv and it is all going into a HK Osprey.

[photohoward1]

Found it. 8 pole. Low kv but you didn't loosed any rpm under load with them being 8 poles.

Worked pretty well on a Schulze. Low KV? I think it’s about 900 per volt hard to read the figures they give you wacky statistics to figure it out. Ran those on x450 maybe 452 back in the day. 60mph. I think Alan ran his on a 447/3. In that Muck Hull. Couple Canadians still running them too. They sound like turbines.


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[Tomas_MGM-CONTROLLERS]

Hello guys,

My name is Tomas and I work at MGM CONTROLLERS. Doug contacted me through our Facebook page. Our support guy Martin read this forum and you can see his response below.

The RaceMechaniX seems to know all the stuff. We recommend high quality Lehner motors, which work very well with our MGM controllers. Some other motors may create high current peaks, especially on higher voltage, for example on 12s batteries.

There is no issue with D or Y connection of motors, this connection just influence the motor KV. If the motor kv is too high on given voltage (usually with D connection), then the current peaks might get too high. The controller will try to protect itself by limiting the power or even by cut-off, if currents are extreme.

The motor TP 5660 7D is suitable for voltage up to 44V according to manufacturer, but your 12s battery has about 50.4V, when fully charged, so that is too much for this motor. So it is important to respect the max. allowed voltage for given motor.
There are more ways how to solve the issues with limiting the high current peaks. In this case the most efficient solution is lowering the voltage.

You can also use propeller with smaller diameter or lower pitch to reduce the load on the motor.

It is important to set correct parameter settings in the controller software, especially set parameters P52: Motor timing to about 10-15 degrees for TP, Castle, NEU motors, P16: acceleration to 2.0 sec. or more, P51: Motor PWM frequency to 8kHz, P21: Freewheel to Yes.

I hope this helps. If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact me here or at [email protected].

[triton]

Hello Tomas

I thing MGM made high quality and highly protected controllers. We chose this ESC therefore.
But we have the same problem with other setup in other boats with MGM. And there is no over voltage. With leopard 5692 3d 7s the same situation.
But there is no problem with overloaded Lehner.
So I think it's a bit a communication problem.
If you would have advised me when I ordered the controllers there is no this topic
"We recommend high quality Lehner motors, which work very well with our MGM controllers. Some other motors may create high current peaks"
Otherwise we think your product one of the best in this area and we keep with MGM, therefore I ordered the new lehners:)

Regards Peter

[T.S.Davis]

Alright. Someone has to say it.

Lehner are excellent motors. The quality is absolutely second to none. They are literally a work of art in my opinion. I still have one left.

That said, I haven't raced one since 2009. The problem with the Lehner is that they haven't evolved. Every other manufacturer has 4 plus pole options. You can get TP motors with 6 poles. 2 pole is great if you're going to just go straight. You don't need the torque for that. Boats that oval race need torque. Acceleration is massive and happens about every 6 seconds. None of my oval records were set with 2 pole motors.

[StevenBryant]

I run Lehner motors and MGM 280 and 250 controllers on 6s setups they are awesome, i also run NEU 1527 motors and with MGM speedo's i've had many issues even with the correct setting. There has to be a problem between MGM and NEU/TP/Castle motors because so many people are suffering from issues.

[T.S.Davis]

Those are all 4 pole motors.

[triton]

Those are all 4 pole motors.

TP 6 pole

[RaceMechaniX]

Lehner's work just fine for oval racing, they do prefer to be run at higher speeds compared to the 4/6-poles or you have to use the next size larger can. For some boats this is fine and for others the 4 or 6-poles work better. The biggest issue is the LMT's are very expensive and most of us simply cannot afford LMT's for every boat. Our challenge is there are a number of very good high performance multi pole motors like the TP's that are 1/3 the cost compared to the LMT's, however there is no good controller solution for the 4-pole motors besides the converted castle ICE controllers. Especially for the HV applications.

@ Tomas, would it help if we are are sending you several 4/6-pole motors that we commonly use for you to validate the ESC parameters with? I would be willing to send you the ducted fan dyno I have with a TP4070 motor and even include the 40063 and 25063 I use.

-Tyler

[photohoward1]

Alright. Someone has to say it.

Lehner are excellent motors. The quality is absolutely second to none. They are literally a work of art in my opinion. I still have one left.

That said, I haven't raced one since 2009. The problem with the Lehner is that they haven't evolved. Every other manufacturer has 4 plus pole options. You can get TP motors with 6 poles. 2 pole is great if you're going to just go straight. You don't need the torque for that. Boats that oval race need torque. Acceleration is massive and happens about every 6 seconds. None of my oval records were set with 2 pole motors.

Have to disagree. I run Mostly LMT. We could drag race Terry. I have always said LMT were easier on controllers. Has anyone really done a torque comparison? You got the oval records because you guys in MI. Practice running ovals all the time. Your good at it.