Esc cutting out

[TRUCKPULL]

Let's get all the details of what he is running, prop, batts and what his expectations are and go from there. A lot of great minds on here and I'm sure we can straighten this out constructively

If we could get the OP (GF Houiellebecq) to tell us what he is running would help a lot

Hull -
motor -
ESC -
Batteries-
Prop -
What type of running and how long are these runs -

Every body is saying that it is the LVC (could be right)
What if the OP is trying to use 25C car batteries??????? You would hit the LVC real quick.

We need more info on his full setup.


Larry

[CraigP]

5s or 6s on 2200 kv. Foolish. I should have let the experts straighten it out though. Carry on. Sorry I interfered.

Look, Terry is right! That's just not the right kv for the voltage. I understand the frustration. I'm running a 1400 3674 on 6s in a DF29, and the boat is almost too fast!

Terry, I get frustrated too... But a guy on the site told me I was coming off harsh, he is now a good friend and I appreciated his advice. (Oscarel) I value your opinions, when I started doing FE research, you were some of the first posts I read, and they had meaning and made a difference for me. So to pass along some great advice, take a chill pill and know you are valued by many!

To the OP, you would be served well to heed this advice on the motor/battery selection. There are many things that can kick in the ESC cutting out. Hopefully you see that each part of the electrical system must be checked correctly. For instance, one bad solder connection can get hot during the run and drop enough volts to kick in the LVC, so look at everything for signs of heat.

Terry, sorry for posting your name wrong, I was just talking to a Travis, and well, you know...

[Peter A]

I'm going to back Terry also. I watch and see so many get into FE and asking the same questions time after time. Sometimes I wonder why there is a search button! Those who are serious about setting boats up for SAW or just doing their own speed runs, soon learn how to burn gear up. Guys like KFX Guy have learned what works and doesn't, but still take a calculated risk to push boundaries. That doesn't mean that it will work for everyone. Chaps like Terry Davis have been racing FE boats for many years and have burned up more motors and esc's than they care to count. All of that has taught them what works and what doesn't. They try to help with good advice, and it is up to individuals to listen to that advice or not. The choice is, listen and learn, or risk wrecking your gear and forking out money over and over again. High voltage and KV does not always give the best speed. The rest of the boat setup, prop, trim etc is more important to get the performance required. I see guys in my club that have a mindset of putting bigger modified petrol motors in their boats and think that they should be able to blast around at 70+ mph because of that, and get dissappointed when they hardly go any faster than boats that are well set up with stock or mild mod motors. They miss the important parts of tuning a boat and never seem to listen.
Speed, cost or reliability, pick the two you want because in this hobby the three don't go together!

[Luck as a Constant]

Terry's first post in here was "more insanity".
He may be god of the fe world, but his approach is rude.

[T.S.Davis]

I guess I was rude. I'll try to explain my frustration. This 6s high kv thing isn't new. Being nice and patient has gotten me nowhere.

Jay Turner used to encourage it but he was suggesting CraigP's thinking. Watts out being the same. More voltage @ less amps = safer setup. Jay has said this for years. That's not what's happening though. Guys are guessing. At that many rpm if you get the prop wrong or have two little gap in the flex cable........bust out the marshmallows.

I'm not god of anything but I do have some experience. Call it the "been there broke that" factor. We could fund a small country on the mad science cost of the our club has performed. High kv, low kv, high kv on a gear drive. Sounds like a chain saw. Even saw low kv with an over driven belt drive. That was cool btw. Doesn't work as hoped but really cool.

Everyone is always trying to run 6s and go at least 70mph with boats designed to go upper 40's. Gieco is NOT a 6s boat. It wasn't designed to be and can't take the abuse. Marketing got in the way when it was produced and said "hey, how bout 6s?". Without substantial reinforcement it will absolutely explode if it stuffs with a 2200kv motor on 6s. Prop and LVC wont matter. Bring the pool skimmer. I've killed two of them on spec power. They're not made very well. Even the new PB cat shouldn't be running 6s. It's not big enough. Marketing again.

Here's an example......

Lets talk 6s setups for a second. Q sport hydro is a good one.

I set the NAMBA oval record with a Neu 1527/1y. That motor is only 1250kv. My record was pretty weak as they screwed up the numbers at NAMBA. My partner in crime at the time set the two lap IMPBA record with the same motor in a different hull. My oval record held up for just over a year I think. Until the next NATS. It was beaten out in Colorado by a 1527/1.5d in the same hull as mine. The 1.5d is 1500kv. The guy already knew that the motor was too hot for 6s so he ran it on 5s. That held up for a while. Then it was destroyed at our NATS in 14. 1527/1y on 6s again. Why was Balls boat so much faster than the record when he was using the same motor from my old record? It was a much better build and he's a much better driver. Same day, same race, Ball's new record was beaten again by Paganelli. He was using a......wait for it.........1527/1y at 1250kv. The two lap IMPBA record for Q sport is currently held by a 1527/1y again. That's a time trial. Not oval racing with traffic. One guy alone on a course. I raced the boat myself at the Cup with perfect heats. It's a beast. Didn't need 2200kv on 6s to go fast. To go the fastest in fact. Kv does not equal speed. It does force you to use a less efficient prop.

This isn't speculation or theory. These are real honest to goodness results that world class racers have laid down. On this forum however, there is always someone or another that encourages 6s in a boat that wasn't designed for it on a kv that borders on irresponsible. If any experienced guys chimes in they're disregarded. Someone ran it in A boat. Ran up and down their local puddle a dozen times last summer and that's that. The proof of concept. Must be a good setup. Really?

Guys that build the fastest boats in the world aren't posting anymore. Have none of you noticed? Seen a post from Buass lately? Even know who he is? They're done arguing. You guys always know better so they don't bother. I literally just received a note from a boat builder that does it for money asking why I bother. I didn't have an answer.

The OP is very likely over amping the speed controller and it is shutting down. 6s on 2200kv is going to produce pretty high amps on almost any 3/16 prop. The only real way to figure it out is to use the time on the throttle (run time) and the mah pumped back into the cells. Then go to the handy dandy calculation page right here on OSE (speed calc) and figure out the actual amp draw. Even if it is getting into the LVC it's because the setup is too hot for the batteries. We don't even know how many mah he's carrying. Could be a single 5s3300 for all we know. But 2200kv on 6s we know he can run "all day long"?

[CraigP]

Another thing to Terry's comments, the higher your kv, the lower the torque translation is, meaning the efficiency and loaded prop speed DROP. A lower kv motor makes more torque translation, so it holds closer to its theoretical rpm. There's a point of diminished returns, and years of racing has defined these boundaries pretty well.

I'm not a racer, hell im just learning to handle my boat! But I am an electronics specialist, and the same rules apply for all electrical systems. So I listen very closely to what racers say, because they help formulate my expectations. I think more respect needs to be paid out to veterans who have spent plenty of cash learning. Why make the same mistakes?

I feel a bit responsible for some of this HV expectations, but I think I have been very clear. Although I have a boat built for 4-5s, I do run 8s on it. But the wattage is actually pretty low, about 2600W right now. I'm doing some experimenting with LiPo cells and I need a high series circuit to do that. So what's my kv on this 8s boat? 1050!! And it runs a very frugal prop, M445. You can do incredible things with smaller motors on higher voltage, but you MUST control the load power! So, if you have no plan, or don't really want to think about it so much (which is absolutely fine) then do yourself a favor and use some known setups.

Terry, don't give up on us new guys... You do make a difference! Most of us listen... Well, it's to the lake and run the boat!

[CraigP]

Cool. Been looking at that boat. I've just got way too much on the bench now. Maybe next year.

I did a bunch of sponson work on it, and I'm not sure if I'd do it again! It's strong, but it was really a lot of work bending the aluminum skins into position. If you want something that's fast out of the box, those ML Boatworks are pretty fine... Without the bottom work, the DF Vortex 34 is an ill handling and very flip-prone boat. It fact in stock trim, I bet the Proboat UL-19 will beat it...

[properchopper]

Given that last Friday was National Elephant Appreciation Day [it really was - google it] I'll risk jumping in to venture an "educated guess" because of the elephant in the room:

The OP states : "it keeps cutting out.When it cuts back in the boat runs at reduced speed until the esc is switched off and on again." This is the textbook definition of LVC protect mode. BUT HERE"S THE MEDIATING FACTOR :

First, look at a representative voltage graph :

batt graph sample.jpg

Now, the EE's that design the LVC need to compute and program in the firmware the EXACT moment that protection is needed. But Whoaa ! The voltage bounces up and down in the typical scenario - so do they (the EE's) select an absolute value in a time window of their choice ? A very narrow window indeed based on the typical LVC operating history. If a useable LVC would be engineered to monitor an average voltage drop over a small but battery surviveable window (one to two or more seconds) it might make living with it more "user friendly".

No doubt an over protective LVC is very likely a design factor imposed by the lawyers given the early reputation of Lipos and their almost universally accepted likely propensity for mass extinction of all living things. Imagine someone buying an ESC thinking that the LVC is the ultimate prevention device and (as often happens with beginners)and the boat is run way longer than is recommended and BOOM the boat / dock / house burns up.

As a racer, all of my setups have been devised to let me know that I have enough sparky fuel on board to keep the voltage in the "power range" for a mill + six + two penalty laps (I like to use turn buoys for traction).

I agree with Mr. Davis that one or two zoom-zoom runs doesn't mean that it is readily replicatable : " Someone ran it in A boat. Ran up and down their local puddle a dozen times last summer and that's that. The proof of concept. Must be a good setup. Really? "

I file these reports in the Journal of Small Samples (University Press) right next to the research study concluding : All Cars Are Red.

Craig - Am I on to something ?

[Fluid]

You'll find very few experienced guys posting on OSE anymore. They don't want to argue with guys that think they know everything but haven't the experience. I'm not sure "smug" is quite right. More like fed up. No.....frustrated is the right word....

Terry, this is exactly what killed the red board years ago. A few of us got fed up and moved to OSE and started helping instead of arguing with folks who had no experience but lots of opinions. Nobody knows it all, but actual experience with more that a couple of boats mattered. Now, everyone’s an expert...

Maybe someone will start up a new board with knowledgeable suggestions and help instead of BS, made-up examples and testosterone. After awhile it seems pretty pointless.


.

[T.S.Davis]

Tony.......yer the king.

Every person who has cancer was once born. Being born has been directly linked to cancer. Birth causes cancer.

Jay, I know. I was one of those annoying theorist. Eventually you break enough crap not listening and you learn something.

Can we stop with the high KV anytime soon? They're not smart. Sorry if that offends some of you but they cause problems. We know this to be true.

[Luck as a Constant]

you know what? i was trying to help, then got insulted.

i decided to get back into the hobby and post a build on ose, but i don't want to be a part of these threads outside my own build thread.this is stupid and its just not fun. now i remember why i stopped to begin with.

to the OP, good luck with your boat. you're welcome to message me if you want to chat more.

[Bp9145]

Tony.......yer the king.

Every person who has cancer was once born. Being born has been directly linked to cancer. Birth causes cancer.

Jay, I know. I was one of those annoying theorist. Eventually you break enough crap not listening and you learn something.

Can we stop with the high KV anytime soon? They're not smart. Sorry if that offends some of you but they cause problems. We know this to be true.

AMEN . .some will learn the hard way and some will listen and learn. . .it's a choice. I prefer the latter(after learning the hard way of course. .LOL) and I've followed a few members here that have contributed greatly and Terry is one of them. . .just saying.

[CraigP]

I wouldn't want to be the Firmware Engineer on these ESC's! There's so much liability and marketing crap going into these things... As it's been said, know your load and know your power draw. I just got back from the lake, best laps ever turned! Oscar (oscarel) helped me out, gave me a 1/8 scale beautiful hardened aluminum turn fin. I cut it down to size and it just zipped WOT turns! The boat is starting to look like a little version of my brother's full size GP55.. Very good balance. Also with Oscar's help, getting the strut adjusted just right, it's finally taking bigger pitch props. Ran a M545 tonight and touched 60 with the small motor. These batts are given me great data for my research! One other note: before I started my build, I spent over 40 hours (2 weeks) just reading posts, Terry's, Tony's and yes, even my old pal Jay. He was my favorite until I pissed him off... oh well, if you're listening Jay, I was listening to you too. All of you have been really helpful to me, and I just want to let your know your time to write is appreciated!

[T.S.Davis]

I was learning frJayjay before I knew him. Once upon a time I tried manufacturing some boats on my own from plastic. We were going much slower then. There were no brushless motors for RC and lithium wasn't even an itch in some engineers head. Sold my very first boat to Jay. It was a terrible thing. Jay made it work.

I read his book even though it was already outated by the time I got a hold of it.

My first real boat I bought after reading an on line article by Greg Schweers. Followed his I structions to the letter. Fast forward to 2017. He and I exchange texts all the time out of the blue. "Have you tried.....this that the other?". You would not believe how many spec motors we've experimented with.

Guys, we want to help but you have to consider the possibility that some things have been done. Do any of you believe that your the first to try super high KV? Haha. I wish.

Can a 2200kv motor work on 6s? It could I guess. Can I paint a full car with a toothbrush and some testors paints? Sure I could. Doesn't make it smart. Wait wait....I got another one. Can I drive a nail in with a chainsaw? Proly.

[Prodrvr]

Another thing to Terry's comments, the higher your kv, the lower the torque translation is, meaning the efficiency and loaded prop speed DROP. A lower kv motor makes more torque translation, so it holds closer to its theoretical rpm

Doesn't can size dictate torque, not Kv numbers?

[CraigP]

This is based on relative can size. The Speed Calc also gives you a figure of merit in the motor speed calc area...

[T.S.Davis]

Can size will give more torque but the kv matters too. A lower kv will give you more torque if the rotor size is the same.

Prime example would be the Proboat motors. Not sure they still make the 1500 but the can and rotor are the same as the 2000. They're just wound different. Both are great motors. Especially for the price but the 1500 has more torque and will turn a much larger prop at less total rpm. The beauty of that is/can be that you put a larger propeller blade in the water. A larger blade doesn't slip as much. Meaning it's more efficient. Acceleration is for sure better. Think digging a hole with a hand garden shovel or using a big spade shovel. Volume per scoop is higher with the spade. More efficient.

A big fat prop isn't always the answer though. My kids PT Stealth for instance doesn't like big props. We tried to get the 1500 to work but it just never liked the big blades. I know guys that have made it work on a Stealth. Every boat has it's own personality IMO. Ty's boat likes a small prop and the extra rpm we can get out of a 2000kv motor. We get a nice top speed this way but some of our guys pull harder out of the turn with a 1500. It takes them less time to get to full speed. Big scoops.

The interesting thing is that we GPS'd a 1500kv boat and a 2000kv boat. Both sport hydro oval racers with different mah batteries, different motors, and different props with the exact same top speed. Within a 10th of a mph. The difference (we think) is that the boat with the larger prop gets to that top speed a tiny tic quicker. Doesn't always translate to wins. You still have to put it in the right spot to win but all things being equal.

Craig once mentioned that watts are watts. Wasn't this thread but still true. Comes down to how many of those watts can you translate into thrust. My experience is that if you try to simply throw a 65000rpm (yes I have) into the water what you get is thrust with a LOT of wasted energy. You get many gallons of water thrown into the air. More friction from the entire drive line. More wear on every component. More resonance from anything that is less than perfectly balanced. A drive dog that hasn't been ground just right will eat your strut for instance. Immediately? Of course not. But it's coming.

This isn't a dig but typically guys that don't race are hesitant to spend big dollars on motors and such. Why the heck would ya? A Lehner motor will have killer bearings. Just shy of ceramic. Priced accordingly. It will absolutely handle most of the rpm you can dream up. A Leopard or even a TP? Hmmmm Sketchy. Good motors but not like a Lehner or a Neu. So we take a new......er guy and turn him loose with a high rpm setup that really needs to have every rotating piece balanced to keep it safe and hook it to a budget motor with a budget ESC and likely some budget batteries that produce crazy ripple currents. Go have fun buddy! Steven (OSE) has to be losing his mind trying to keep up with guys breaking things. To make it worse for him, guys are buying stuff because they read on here that it was a good setup. They want it replaced because "it worked for some guy on the internet". The fact that there was no gap in the strut and the amperage went from sane to explosive is omitted from the conversation. "It just burned up". Where does that leave OSE? Replace everything isn't going to keep him in business. Don't replace stuff and he's the bad guy. Gotta be a nightmare at times.

[Mxkid261]

2200 on 6s all day long?? Maybe for a few zip-zip passes, not a reliable sport setup. Its like when someone refers to a setup they saw someone running in a youtube video...must be reliable since someone has a 1 minute video of it right!?

[Mxkid261]

Steven (OSE) has to be losing his mind trying to keep up with guys breaking things. To make it worse for him, guys are buying stuff because they read on here that it was a good setup. They want it replaced because "it worked for some guy on the internet". The fact that there was no gap in the strut and the amperage went from sane to explosive is omitted from the conversation. "It just burned up". Where does that leave OSE? Replace everything isn't going to keep him in business. Don't replace stuff and he's the bad guy. Gotta be a nightmare at times.

Unfortunately he probably gets emails regularly with situations like this. "Well I watched a youtube video of the same setup, so it must've been a faulty component"

[CraigP]

Yep, it's a strange world... most just don't want to "bother" with all the details, like a Vegas wedding! It's just like business, you need to know your business to be successful. You can't pay someone to know your business!

But this sport should have people with a natural curiosity to how things work... it's the curiosity that produces the drive to dig in and learn, the "how comes" and "why nots" produce a tendency to ask questions and learn. The Interwebs have proven to be a great thing and a horrible thing. It's great that so much info is there, it's horrible when people feel that others have "done their business" for them.

Setups that are offered here are NOT intended to be your destination folks! It's intended to be your starting point. To get you off safely, so you still have a boat around after Day 1 to learn with. So respect the sport and keep on the journey of self discovery, which is really where the fun is!

[Prodrvr]

2200 on 6s all day long?? Maybe for a few zip-zip passes, not a reliable sport setup. Its like when someone refers to a setup they saw someone running in a youtube video...must be reliable since someone has a 1 minute video of it right!?

All I care about is saw passes. Running around in circles gets a bit boring...like NASCAR. I'm an NHRA guy.

[CraigP]

This is a big point... There are different goal sets for different people. This is what makes this hobby great! I'm the opposite, just blasting straight doesnt butter my bread.. For me, the beauty of seeing a hydro go through the different ride changes from straight to cornering is exciting for me. Through all of that, there are distinct differences in the needs and demands of the electrical system. What works well for circle runners probably isn't going to be effective for SAW. But I don't think we need to express opinions if one is "better" than the other, that is just divisive. I don't think and I didn't take Prodriver's comments negatively at all. Let's all just enjoy the hobby the way that gives us the most pleasure!

[Prodrvr]

Let's all just enjoy the hobby the way that gives us the most pleasure!

Agreed!

[T.S.Davis]

Saw passes bore me to tears. A single boat all by itself with nobody around to laugh and have some fun with.........................................sorry I dozed off.....................what was I typing about?.......................

Oh yeah....roundy rounds. Put some buoy and 4 more guys on the pond. A five boat heat involves 5 racers, 5 pit guys (these are spotters), and at least one guy calling the heat. So 11 morons that love RC boats all laughing and acting a fool. Swap leads a couple times. Set a guy up so he makes a mistake and you can dip under him to thieve the lead in the last turn. Finger pointing at the end of the heat. Talk crap about that pass.

"Where did you get the extra speed coming out of 4?"
"I'll show ya"

I can't even put a price on that fun factor. Even my wife has quit trying to.

Don't get me wrong. I still go to the time trials. Going this weekend. I've got a nasty Q mono Wildthing to run through the lights. Truth is, I get more joy out of BS'n in the pits than I do running at those events. Helps to know everyone there but if ya go and stay for more than an hour you'll likely know everyone there too. It's just how racers are wired. Excuse the pun.

[fweasel]

Saw passes bore me to tears.

But the point is, there's no more value in your enjoyment going roundy round then to an individual that SAW puts wood on. Myself, I'm not blessed with living in or near a location frequented by 11 other like minded hobbyists on a given outing, so I just make noise, scare off the water fowl, and try to keep my boats off the rocks.

[R2315]

Try being from Toronto, Canada! The only thing I can race around here is a sailboat with a servo! I envy you guys......

[TRUCKPULL]

Try being from Toronto, Canada! The only thing I can race around here is a sailboat with a servo! I envy you guys......

Ryan
We will have about 40 guys out this Sat. the 30th.
Come and join in on the fun.
Wellesley Apple Butter & Cheese Festival
Wellesley Ontario, Sat. get their by 8:00 AM for parking at the pond.

Larry

[CraigP]

Try being from Toronto, Canada! The only thing I can race around here is a sailboat with a servo! I envy you guys......

Folks frown upon electric boats up there? When I lived in California in the 80's and 90's, people would give me a hard time when I ran my nitro boat. Put oil in the pond and scared the birds... In Oklahoma, people come out with their kids to see the boats run. I've got all FE now, no nitro or gas. Too noisy and they can leave oil in the water...

[R2315]

Ryan
We will have about 40 guys out this Sat. the 30th.
Come and join in on the fun.
Wellesley Apple Butter & Cheese Festival
Wellesley Ontario, Sat. get their by 8:00 AM for parking at the pond.

Larry

Thanks for the invite Larry! Unfortunately I've got a wedding that day. Do you guys meet there often? I would certainly like to check it out sometime!

Thanks, Ryan

[Mxkid261]

But the point is, there's no more value in your enjoyment going roundy round then to an individual that SAW puts wood on. Myself, I'm not blessed with living in or near a location frequented by 11 other like minded hobbyists on a given outing, so I just make noise, scare off the water fowl, and try to keep my boats off the rocks.

Where about are you in Illinois? Im like 20 miles west of Milwaukee, I know theres a couple clubs in Illinois that race. I believe the badger boaters club near Kenosha race down there too.