Velos 36 - Balancing Act

[mikiek]

I have been whining about my boat skipping over the water when I run it. In fact there are times when it is completely out of the water and I hear the motor screaming for the split second it does not get any resistance from the prop. If there is such a thing as running too dry this is it.

I have been running with 4 3S packs. As you probably know there is very little room to slide them forward or back to adjust the CG.

Today I adjusted the struts down 4mm. Took the boat out and I saw very little difference in the runs that I did.

So the next plan was trying just 2 batteries and having more freedom to move them around. Although I am beginning to think differently, it seemed there was a weight problem. Not enough to hold the hull down. What that in mind I went with 2 6S packs as far forward as they will go. Unfortunately they won't slide under the deck.

Now for the good news. Just watching it run, it was obvious that it was running better. It was lower to the water and seemed like it wanted to knife thru what little chop there was vs. skipping over it like before. The GPS went from an earlier 51mph to 54mph on just 2 out & backs.

The bad news was I seemed to be losing signal with the boat at about the turn around point. I was fortunate to bring her back without having to paddle out and get her. Not sure what was going on. The batteries were still juiced so it should not have been the ESC cutoff. The boat was out maybe 1/4 mile so I don't think it was too far. I was able to goose the throttle a few times and get a little spurt of motor running. And then one time I pulled the trigger and she ran all the way in. Definitely time to call it a day.

So I guess I'll continue experimenting with CG and see what works best. It does kinda stink that 4 batteries aren't working for me. I coulda bought a lot fewer batteries

[Prodrvr]

The bad news was I seemed to be losing signal with the boat at about the turn around point.The boat was out maybe 1/4 mile so I don't think it was too far

Two questions: What radio are you using that you think 1/4 mile away isn't far?
How do you see a tiny boat 1/4 mile away?

[vinnyp]

I have not attempted to run mine that far away. 1/4 mile is a long way, as was said, you cant judge where it is or what direction it is heading at that distance. I keep mine reasonably close to me. I buzz the beach where it is deep enough to keep out of the sand but shallow enough for me to walk out and get it if I have to. Funny thing is that I have found a spot where the boat loses radio reception and just stops. Both of my boats do this in the same spot. Maybe some Bermuda triangle thing going on there, don't know for sure. In any case, I just walk further down on the beach to a spot where I can avoid that dead zone.

[mikiek]

I have not attempted to run mine that far away. 1/4 mile is a long way, as was said, you cant judge where it is or what direction it is heading at that distance. I keep mine reasonably close to me. I buzz the beach where it is deep enough to keep out of the sand but shallow enough for me to walk out and get it if I have to. Funny thing is that I have found a spot where the boat loses radio reception and just stops. Both of my boats do this in the same spot. Maybe some Bermuda triangle thing going on there, don't know for sure. In any case, I just walk further down on the beach to a spot where I can avoid that dead zone.

Vinny - This spot is across the water on the far shore and there are houses packed in. I'm wondering if maybe I hit a Wifi hot spot or something. The boat was running intermittently until I got 30-40 feet away, then it ran fine.

Prodrvr - I am using the stock pistol transmitter. Still a Newb so maybe 1/4 is too far for these things. What I said I was basing off my RC sailboat experience. I can go twice that far with those transmitters. And no they're not Ham radios I have no problems seeing the boat at that distance - the yellow stands out well for me. As long as it is moving I don't see it being an issue. The only problem I have is like today when it stopped and started to drift. Then it's hard to know what direction it is pointed. Even then if I can bump the throttle and look for the rooster tail the direction is not hard to determine.

Maybe I need to add some binos to my kit.

[iop65]

1/4 mile?
you can't see what's in the water ,maybe some kids are swimming !!!

[mikiek]

I hear some obvious concerns for safety here. Let me assure everyone safety is always on my mind. If I didn't think what I was doing was safe I WOULD NOT DO IT. As an example - besides the transmitter problem yesterday, the other reason I brought the boat in was due to the fact that some kids set out into the water on a surfboard. Could I have continued to do laps at some distance around them? Yes. Could I have done some out & backs at a distance away from them? Yes. What did I do? I took my boat off the water. The spot I run is a large protected cove with a marina at one end and me at the far end. If I see anything on the water - swimmer, jetski, boat - my boat comes in. Period.

Now can we get back on topic?

[mikiek]

Last day off so I went out for a quick run this morning. Water was the smoothest I have seen yet - almost like glass until I get the boat out there. I'm sticking with the 2 6S packs. Yesterdays run I had them as forward as I could get them, today I started with them about 1" further back. The bow was definitely doing some ups & downs but the prop is still staying in the water nicely. Next I moved the packs forward again. That seems to be the sweet spot - at least for these 6S packs. The hull attack was very smooth, no ups or downs. For the most part the hull stayed perfectly level.

Brought her back towards the boat ramp and let her float to cool off for a sec. When I started it back up - circles I could see a few pine needles hanging off the rudder but when I got her closer to the pier I could see one of the props was several inches behind the strut. Busted that shaft up at the motor. Guess I'm lucky it didn't come out all the way. I've seen a fitting that goes on the shaft up by the motor to prevent that. Don't remember where.

So the day was over but I did improve on my speed - 54mph yesterday, 58mph today. I think I'll put the struts back to 0 next time. Also time to break out the OSE replacement shafts. And of course, batteries in storage mode.

[vinnyp]

mike,
Good to hear your running better. I am hoping to run mine this weekend. Between working a lot and terrible weather, I have not had many chances to run it. As was suggested, I got a set of octurro x447's. I worked them but did not detongue them. We'll see what happens.
I think these flex cable savers may be what you are looking for. The next time I order from OSE, I will include them as well.
https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pr...ex+Cable+Parts

[MADRCER]

I have been whining about my boat skipping over the water when I run it. In fact there are times when it is completely out of the water and I hear the motor screaming for the split second it does not get any resistance from the prop. If there is such a thing as running too dry this is it.

I have been running with 4 3S packs. As you probably know there is very little room to slide them forward or back to adjust the CG.

Today I adjusted the struts down 4mm. Took the boat out and I saw very little difference in the runs that I did.

So the next plan was trying just 2 batteries and having more freedom to move them around. Although I am beginning to think differently, it seemed there was a weight problem. Not enough to hold the hull down. What that in mind I went with 2 6S packs as far forward as they will go. Unfortunately they won't slide under the deck.

Now for the good news. Just watching it run, it was obvious that it was running better. It was lower to the water and seemed like it wanted to knife thru what little chop there was vs. skipping over it like before. The GPS went from an earlier 51mph to 54mph on just 2 out & backs.

The bad news was I seemed to be losing signal with the boat at about the turn around point. I was fortunate to bring her back without having to paddle out and get her. Not sure what was going on. The batteries were still juiced so it should not have been the ESC cutoff. The boat was out maybe 1/4 mile so I don't think it was too far. I was able to goose the throttle a few times and get a little spurt of motor running. And then one time I pulled the trigger and she ran all the way in. Definitely time to call it a day.

So I guess I'll continue experimenting with CG and see what works best. It does kinda stink that 4 batteries aren't working for me. I coulda bought a lot fewer batteries

The radio that comes with the Zelos 36 (all black version of the DX2E) runs out of range at around 800-1,000ft. However I have a couple of the DX2E radios with the orange stickers and they get more range. I have tested the two versions of the radios in my Zelos against the Impulse 31 v3 and the Geico 29 v3 and the Zelos radio doesn't get the range they do.

[mikiek]

I was first thinking about upgrading. But I do agree with what others have said. I'm pushing the edge of the safe range. Kinda pointless to have the boat go any farther. Of course the flip side of that is it would be good to have a TX that I can trust to get me there & back.

They need a 'Home' mode like my drone. If they get out of signal range they turn around and go back to the takeoff spot.

[mikiek]

I was able to go out with some of the members of Heart of Texas club today. Wow, what a difference running with some folks that know what they're doing! A good bunch of guys as well. We were out in Crosby Tx at a pond that appears to be dedicated to RC boating. A decent size, buoys at each end to mark a circuit, even an elevated driving area. Very nice! Conditions were outstanding - water was mostly smooth, light winds.

After a few tweaks to my strut angles, just barely angled up (yes up), I had the Zelos running very straight & smooth. First run - 2 6S - we tried moving the packs back to the stern as far as they would go. That caused to bow to bounce a bit and I ended up flipping the boat. Next I moved them forward as far as they would go and that did it. No more bow bouncing or hull skipping and I was able to keep the throttle down for most of the straights. Never been able to throttle down for more than a second or two. Of course I forgot to put the GPS in

When the 6S started to drain I switched to 4 3S just to see if I could get that working. Ended up with 2 all the way forward and 2 all the way back. GPS in this time and I peaked at 62mph By far my best speed

Probably the most fun was working those turns in the circuit at near full speed. The Zelos really hung in VERY tight and I was able to come out and quickly accelerate. This has not been happening at my spot where the turns have been sluggish.

Most of the guys there had boats they had built, but they seemed impressed with the Zelos, considering it was an off the shelf boat. Now if I can just get that performance at home.

My thanks to all that were there today...

[NativePaul]

Good times, I hope you go back and race with them.
I wish I had your eyes.

[vinnyp]

Mike,
Great news that you are running well. 62 in stock form is nice. Are you running the stock props?
I hope to run mine tomorrow morning. I will post my results.

[fweasel]

FYI, when you crash, bring the boat back and have a quick look at the strut adjustment. On more than one occasion, I've flipped and knocked one of them out of wack. That reminds me, I need to disassemble mine and rough up the mating surface of the clamping point to provide a little more friction when the hardware is snugged down.

[mikiek]

Paul - I am looking forward to running with them again. This was the first real "track" I've run on and I figured why it's seems so long at my local spot. At the site today you are standing at the half way mark on one of the straights. When I loop at home I am at one end so that turn at the other end is pretty far away.

Vinny - I was using a set of OSE CNC props. Wish I had thought to try out the stock props.

fweasel - you may have been spot on. I made a suggested strut adjustment before the first run and I know I had both struts on the same plane. We looked at it after the flip and it was obvious to them that one strut was now a little higher than the other. Turned out to be no more that 0.5mm off. Your point is well taken - a good inspection after any mishap is in order. As well as a possible adjustment so it doesn't happen again.

One thing they were all surprised at was the CG (at least on my boat) was very far forward. Even without batteries. That's why they had me try that first run with the packs at the rear. However they did see exactly what I have been experiencing, the hull skipping over the water and the props not in 100% contact. That's why the suggestion of struts up - to push the stern and the props into the water. I think most of my strut adjustments prior to today had been down to try to keep the bow a little wetter.

Regarding the forward CG - I gotta wonder if all the epoxy I put on the inside of the hull when I repaired the cracked hull may be affecting that.

Big take away today was what a difference a 1mm can make in performance. It was cool going thru that cycle of do a lap, bring it in and tweak it, repeat. Of course having all that experience there helped too.

[mikiek]

I need to disassemble mine and rough up the mating surface of the clamping point to provide a little more friction when the hardware is snugged down.

By clamping point, are you referring to the area where the screw goes thru? Or I guess the inside of the strut where the screw passes thru?

[mikiek]

Got out long enough to run down a set of batteries today. This was at my usual spot and it was a little disappointing. I was back to skipping over the water again. Now the one thing I didn't do was check the strut angle before I started. I just assumed they were still +1mm. The water was not quite as smooth as the other day but it should not have had too much effect. Just getting too much lift. The whole boat is coming off the water too easily - prop included. Once it's in the air, all bets are off as to what it's going to do.

I did clock a 57mph, a little short of my best but probably the best for that location. Nothing is easy huh?

[vinnyp]

Mike,
I am starting to learn that these boats are capable of running on the ragged edge of stability. Just like the full size boats I set up, you need to adjust for conditions and engine power. I attempt to set the struts up at home, after I get the weather conditions at the bay I run at. Pain in the butt to adjust them at the bay. I wish there was a way to adjust the struts via a servo, while the boat is running. Just like drive trim and trim tabs on a full size boat.

[Erroneous]

A miniature wormdrive trim would be pretty slick, heavy tho.

[mikiek]

Good point Vinny. My original vision of driving this boat was to just drop it in the water and motor around for a while. Then I began to see that due to the heat issues it was going to more like a few laps then wait a while. Now it looks more like tweak, try, tweak, try, hoping for that one good couple of laps.

Not that there is anything wrong with that but I don't think I'll be trading in my RC sailboats any time soon.

[vinnyp]

I love sailboats. Especially when I run past them at 85 mph and rock them with 572 cubic inches of Chevy power. Best part is that they don't hear me coming, until I pass them and knock their wine glass over.

[Prodrvr]

I love sailboats. Especially when I run past them at 85 mph and rock them with 572 cubic inches of Chevy power. Best part is that they don't hear me coming, until I pass them and knock their wine glass over.

LOLOLOL!!! I would always get a kick out of passing them in the cruiser. But c'mon man, you're running a muffler? That's one of the baddest things of having a performance boat is having them hear you coming about three minutes before they see you!!

[vinnyp]

Yeah, I have " Mufflers". They have to be there to keep the Coast Guard happy. They don't really do too much though. The engine noise is still very loud. Yeah, they hear you coming, but may not know where you are until you pass them.
Here is a short video from a few years ago. My friend in the passenger seat was a first timer. he was pooping his pants the whole time. He got real nervous when we went over that small wake and dropped his phone.

https://youtu.be/RDfHp7aRoTc

PS... sorry for hijacking your thread Mike.

[Prodrvr]

That looks like the south shore of Long Island. I lived in NY from birth to nine years ago when I moved to FL. Born into a boating family. Dad got me my first boat at 14. Your friend who's pooping his pants going over that little boat wake would have dropped dead if he was in my boat going out of the Moriches Inlet on the outgoing tide. Fastest way to turn your boat into a plane!! lol. Broke two boats at that inlet, until the better one came along.

[vinnyp]

Yes, you are right. That is the South Shore of Long Island. That video was taken heading west, in the state channel between Tobay and Zachs Bay. I have been through Moriches a time or two. Neither time was a good time. I prefer Jones Inlet myself. The problem with turning your boat into a plane isn't the getting into the air part, its the LANDING!!!

[Prodrvr]

Yeah landings are interesting in really big seas...just beats you up. So you're running the west end. Been out there once in my friend's 27 Carrera for 4th of July by Jones Beach. Nothing like a bunch of go-fasts tearing it up getting there! The scary part is heading back after everyone's been drinking half the night lol.

[mikiek]

Just so you know not everyone is doing champagne & brie while they're sailing. In this one, you could mess up your pants and a second later it's washed clean. There's a few take offs and landings as well. And foils weren't even the rave yet. Enjoy!

[mikiek]

Did some talking today with some folks that know these boats inside & out. I believe an air dam is the next move for me. Seems like those have helped a lot of boats hug the surface better. The theory behind it makes good sense. The boat is running nice and level, it just wants to get airborne. Hopefully, dissipating some of that lift will keep her in the water.

I believe I mentioned this earlier but I confirmed it again today, a slight positive angle on the struts has really helped keep the boat running straight & level. It seems counterintuitive but it is working for me. Thanks to fluid for that suggestion!

[vinnyp]

Mike,
Are you referring to an air dam under the deck in the tunnel to disrupt the air flow a bit?

[mikiek]

Right Vinny - I'll try something quick & dirty first. Apparently it can be almost anything. One suggestion was taping a drinking straw underneath. It doesn't get much easier than that. If I like it I'll make something more permanent that looks better. The guys I was with yesterday - with cats of all sizes - were claiming positive improvements even from a small one.

On a side note, one of the guys seems to have every prop known to man. Next time we run I'm going to try out a few that I have had in mind. I'll let you know what worked.