DF Vortex 34 Hydro Build

[CraigP]

The sponsons are working great, the boat is very stable all around the course in the mid 50’s. I think it will be the same in the mid 60’s as soon as my driving skills get to that level. I crashed the boat right after final paint early in the summer, driving over my head.

I did add two, 0.031” 6061-T6 aluminum plates to the bottom. The Vortex stock has a lot of hull flex in it, because it has no frames. The aluminum on the sponsons shored those up, but you could still grab the sponson tips and move them up and down, or side to side flex. The aluminum plate under the two, 4s battery boxes fixed that. Then I noticed a resonance sound out on the water at full throttle. I found the hull was vibrating right under the motor, actually making the hull bottom sing with the driveline vibration! So I cut a T-plate and mounted it under the ESC, extending down to the stuffing tube support. Noise gone! This plate is very light, the first weighed 3.7g and the second was 4.1g, so virtually no penalty for the added support. The first pic the boat ready to run...

[Fluid]

To reinforce Tony’s comments on the FE-30, mine was one of the first few sold and was arguably the fastest P-Limited boat in Texas. I sold it to a well known racer, who put a full P setup in it and set the fastest-ever race heat record with it at the 2016 Nationals. Properly set up it is the proven class leader.

That said, my unmodified DF Vortex 34 was a bit better in really rough water, for two reasons. First it is a much bigger boat which gives it some stability advantage, and second, speeds are lower in the rough. On smooth fast water the FE-30 wins. I don’t know what would happen with a modified DF Vortex though, never modified mine past air dams and a deep strut (both helped).


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[CraigP]

There are two mods that I think are helping the most: 1) the angle changes on the sponson ride pads (btw, certainly does not need to be aluminum. I’m just comfortable working with sheet material) and 2) the front wing/canard. This wing has proven more effective than air dams, providing much more range (nose up and down) than air dams would. The angle of attack on the wing firstly directs more air over the top of the boat, in a smooth laminar fashion, so there’s less turbulence created. The bottom of the wing is an engineered reverse wing, which gets stronger as the nose comes up more. When the boat gets to about 15 degrees of nose lift, the wing literally “flys” it back down. It’s a trip to see! Another feature, I guess 3) is I made the sponsons deeper by adding the laminated wooden rails, as pictured. This increases the amount of air that can escape out the sides of the air traps by increasing the open area.

Here’s the pity of it all... I still can’t drive the boat to the speed it’s capable. I really do believe it will run with the FE30 on smooth water, but I can’t keep up with the boat yet at anything over 60mph. I’m hoping to have Oscar Love test drive it at some point so I can see where the performance line is. As Jay mentions, it is a good rough water boat because of size. But it’s a real flexy flier, just a bunch of hull flex at speed well above it’s pay grade!

[Beaux]

We had the same idea about the front wing, it needs one. That's what my next build will be.

[CraigP]

I have a 32” Skater Cat that I’m going to try a wing on. Man are those boats snappy on the flips!

[CraigP]

The boat still set up to run 8s, but it’s now ready to run the two, 4s packs in series or parallel. The 8s setup consists of a Leopard 4082, 1250kv motor which runs about 35K rpms on the water. This is the motor I crashed it on... The slow motor was a Leopard 4072 1050kv, which is quite a bit slower. I’m going to start running this faster motor with the smallest prop in my box, a Grim Racer 42X55mm 2-blade. My biggest blade is an X448, which will run it well over 70. That’s on the back burner...

The 4s setup consists of a TP4050, 2310kv motor. I bought the Turnigy 4s, 5000mah from Truckpull here on the site. I think he used them in P Sport. I’ll run a parallel setup for 10,000mah. This setup spins a bit slower than the 8s setup, so I should be getting into bigger props more easier on it.

The M445 has been a very good prop! With little motor, I ran a M545 and a M645. The 645 started getting the boat out ahead of me. My wife, using a radar gun I have, had it at 62mph, which is where I’ve been stuck at in my driving capabilities. I’m having fun getting better, would like to be comfortably running faster sooner rather than later. It makes you really respect these guys that handle these boats racing against each at such high speeds! Cudos to all of you guys, you give me a lofty goal to get to!

A special shoutout to Oscar Love, who traveled to Tulsa to run with some of his mates and me. Oscar showed me where I need to get to... I really appreciated that Oscar!

[rol243]

I have done some tests in my small test lake with a T.P.4050-2310 KV and in the same hull a Castle-Nue 1415-2400 KV both using the same prop ABC H7 stock and the T.P. Motor is faster for sure. so it must be the larger diameter motor can that makes this motor the quicker of the two. the T.P. Motors seem to be a good unit.

[oscarel]

The boat still set up to run 8s, but it’s now ready to run the two, 4s packs in series or parallel. The 8s setup consists of a Leopard 4082, 1250kv motor which runs about 35K rpms on the water. This is the motor I crashed it on... The slow motor was a Leopard 4072 1050kv, which is quite a bit slower. I’m going to start running this faster motor with the smallest prop in my box, a Grim Racer 42X55mm 2-blade. My biggest blade is an X448, which will run it well over 70. That’s on the back burner...

The 4s setup consists of a TP4050, 2310kv motor. I bought the Turnigy 4s, 5000mah from Truckpull here on the site. I think he used them in P Sport. I’ll run a parallel setup for 10,000mah. This setup spins a bit slower than the 8s setup, so I should be getting into bigger props more easier on it.

The M445 has been a very good prop! With little motor, I ran a M545 and a M645. The 645 started getting the boat out ahead of me. My wife, using a radar gun I have, had it at 62mph, which is where I’ve been stuck at in my driving capabilities. I’m having fun getting better, would like to be comfortably running faster sooner rather than later. It makes you really respect these guys that handle these boats racing against each at such high speeds! Cudos to all of you guys, you give me a lofty goal to get to!

A special shoutout to Oscar Love, who traveled to Tulsa to run with some of his mates and me. Oscar showed me where I need to get to... I really appreciated that Oscar!

Oh now stop it!!! I had a great time up there with you guys. I have 1 more trip planned for this race season then I'll try and make my way back up there before it gets too cold.

Boat is looking good too, keep up the mods and testing.

[Beaux]

After seeing your metal work inside and out, I kind of figured you were pretty comfortable there. Mine is gonna have to be good old fiberglass.

[properchopper]

"But it’s a real flexy flier, just a bunch of hull flex at speed well above it’s pay grade!"

Nonsense. Curious how this was observed/measured at "speeds well above its pay grade"

My V34, Howards and Jays have had issues, but never has hull flex been one of them based on extended off-forum conversations we've had regarding tuning for max speed. Out of the box the initial impression of mine was that it's as rigid as if it was made of concrete.

The hull packs air . Putting wings on won't stop the tendency to lift , only fight against it in to attempt top cancel it. Makes sense to me to use an air dam to reduce/control it before it ever becomes a problem rather than letting it happen, then counteracting it. Most FE wing additions have proven futile at best, historically.

Sounds cool on paper 'tho
2) the front wing/canard. This wing has proven more effective than air dams, providing much more range (nose up and down) than air dams would. The angle of attack on the wing firstly directs more air over the top of the boat, in a smooth laminar fashion, so there’s less turbulence created. The bottom of the wing is an engineered reverse wing, which gets stronger as the nose comes up more. When the boat gets to about 15 degrees of nose lift, the wing literally “flys” it back down. It’s a trip to see! Another feature, I guess "

My amp goes to eleven..............

[CraigP]

Not a fan Tony, I get it... As far as flex is concerned, I fixtured one side to the table and easily displaced the free sponson tip up and down nearly 5/16” in each direction. I only had about 1/8” deflection after the bolster plate was put in. You seem to have a lot of emotion tied up in this. For me, it’s just about optimizing what I have in front of me, solving problems as they come to my attention. Fortunately, your approval isn’t necessary... You’re a better driver than me by a long shot, but I can set up a hull. Maybe your hull was laid up with more glass?

[CraigP]

To respond to Tony’s comments about my front wing, the wing is not on paper anymore. It is on the boat, doing what it was designed to do! So please, go roll your eyes on some one else’s thread. I have nothing to prove to you and I don’t seek your approval. I know you can be helpful, but in this case, you’re anything but that. I, and I’m sure others, found nothing useful in your comments. Just go play with your own toy boats and let me be.

[CraigP]

Ran the hydro today, terrible! I thought for sure the weight distribution had been disturbed after putting in the new battery boxes and running the two, 4s batts instead of the four, 2s batts I had before. I checked the CG most diligently with the old and new batts. Looks like they are still within 0.020” of each other, that’s not the problem. I did find my turn fin setting was way off, sucking the right side down hard. The strut was off too, about 0.100” higher. The boat was really picking up the left side and porpoising very badly under hard acceleration going straight. Turns still looked pretty decent, just the right side a bit too glued down. The settings are touchy! But I did a lousy job re-setting the boat after having it apart putting in the new parts... you learn something new every time you run one of these things.. I was concentrating on the ride characteristics and Boom, it’s down to the pin in a flash! Sure could use someone to video so I can keep my mind on driving it. Feels like I’m trying to text and drive, lol!

[rol243]

Craig, is the turn fin a standard one that comes with this hull ? looks to have alot of hook in it. i did a fare bit of testing different fins on one of my gas powered sport hydros and did find the fins with too much hook was certainly very good in the turns but funny things occured in the straights making driving abit left and right. maybe with your hull a fin with a bend could work better than a hooked fin., worth a test anyway. also could you try placing the battery packs on the left side at cog to see if this helps to keep the left [ port ] side down. hey buy a cheap go-pro type camera and wear it on your head , works really well if you want to film on your own.

[CraigP]

Man, great idea on the go pro! Will do that! On the turn fin, the hull was a bare hull, so no “stock” fin was with it. It is a curved fin that was made for 48” hull that I cut down. I do have a bent fin that I ran before this with good results. You’re right, I need to compare the two. Running today, so I’ll do that.

It is extremely sensitive to course changes going straight. There was a sweet spot where it ran very well, but now that I think about it, I think it’s always been sensitive on the straights.

I can’t move the other battery over, there’s no room under the deck... That’s what made the four, 2s packs rather special for the weight distribution. But the CG checks very nearly dead on between the two battery setups. Last night I thought about having a 2s pack with me at the pond I could just set with Velcro on the left side if I’m still having perceived weight issues. Thanks for the great advice!

[rol243]

As mentioned i had a few fins to test on the gas hydro and some of the fins made the boat very very sensitive just in the straights , it was like the boat just wanted to wonder off course on its own and when radio input was given for correction only the slightest amount of rudder control was used. the hull was almost un driveable until i ended up buying a Titanium cnc fin as used on most Whiplash sport hydros., was a dream to drive then. so play with the turn fins until you find the right one and i am sure your hull will go really well. make sure c.o.g. is correct too.

[CraigP]

I’m going to just swap over to my bent fin... getting ready to run it now. CG is correct, thanks for the input! Wish me luck!

[rol243]

OK let us know results.

[CraigP]

Just got back, like a new boat! Very high winds, average 7-10mph, gusting 15-28. I almost decided it was too much. But felt that it would be a perfect time to check out adverse conditions. Man, I wish I had that GoPro! There wasn’t white caps, but consistent 2-4” rollers. Boat handled it great! The bent fin is definitely better than curved. Dropping the strut 0.100” and making sure it’s at zero degrees just took all the porpoising out. The boat hit rollers 3-4 times, each time coming completely out of the water, but staying absolutely parallel to the water. It just settled right back in. It even jumped in the corner and flew the same way. No doubt CG is right. The bent fin also is about 5/8” further back than the curved fin, just because of mounting hole differences. Right sponson ran more free and only noted sponson walking while going over some pretty high rollers. I checked CG before running at it was right on the leading edge of the turn fin. When I got back, I noted strut, rudder and turn fin setup in my notebook. I also ran a M445, has been my best prop. I had a small, 42X55 2-blade Grim Racer with about 17 degrees of rake on it yesterday. This boat just doesn’t like high rake props. One other note, it was so rough, the ESC Mount broke loose! Didn’t cause an issue, but certainly a testament to rough water. Thanks Ronald for some excellent pointers!

[CraigP]

Here’s a pic of my brother’s GP boat in San Diego. It’s wave jumping too... My boat looked like that, but much higher out of the water. I love seeing hydros fly!

[CraigP]

For you hydro lovers, here’s a pic of arguably the most dominant Unlimited in history, the Bardahl Green Dragon! This is what my little hydro looked like, rudder completely out, flying parallel to the water. I’m a happy guy tonight!

[rol243]

certainly a great old hydro there [ miss bardahl ] used to be avaialble in kit form and maybe you can still get them other than planes only. hope your strut isn,t set at that same angle in pic Craig. lol

[WestJL21]

Dilly, Dilly CraigP !

[CraigP]

certainly a great old hydro there [ miss bardahl ] used to be avaialble in kit form and maybe you can still get them other than planes only. hope your strut isn,t set at that same angle in pic Craig. lol

You know they tried for years to come up with a universal joint that could take the shaft HP, never did it. The shaft angle has always been a design flaw that begets many different work arounds. We are lucky to set it neutral!

I’ve thought about building the ‘66 Bardahl Ron Jones cab-over, that killed Ronny Munson on that fateful day in DC. I was there... But shovel noses are a real design compromise. If I did build one, it would probably be my Dad’s Parco O-Ring Miss, the Karelsen hull..

[CraigP]

Dilly, Dilly CraigP !

Not sure what this means, I must have gotten off the bus!

[Beaux]

Hey Craig, Beaux here do you have any pictures of your strut and rudder set up. I just ordered mine and was curious . Thanks.

[CraigP]

Here’s a couple of shots. This is all Speedmaster hardware. It’s the larger hardware with the rudder cut down. I used the larger strut to have enough meat to put in a rear lip seal, to stop grease loss and prevent water from breaking down the grease.

[rol243]

where the shaft tube log joins up with the strut, use some heat shrink tube , this will keep water out and not create any drag as you have now CraigP.

[CraigP]

Yes, it’s an old pic, someone posted that recommendation a while ago and it’s had heat shrink with silicone underneath since August. The stuffing tube has too small a bend radius and was replaced in the summer. That was another good piece of advice I received. I’ve learned much here!

[srislash]

What are all the holes in the strut upright Craig?