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Thread: Mmeu 2017 supplement rules

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    ||||This is where Smock is supposed to read between the lines.||||

    I need to fix it? Why me? I'm not doing enough for the organization already? Besides, I'm an idiot, I don't even know what "it" is !!
    Doug because you have bigger shoulders then Terry.

    Larry
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter View Post
    My opinion: Keep it simple. Spec ONE motor. Something that is reasonable and robust. It instantly evens the play field which is the overall objective. Done deal.
    If the goal is to even the play field then we would need to limit the prop and hull... prices, availability and modifications as well.
    And many issues with "spec one motor". To many to even re-hash.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    ||||

    Besides, I'm an idiot,
    Well, the first step in getting better is admitting the truth to yourself

  4. #64

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    No matter what we do with this motor issue...
    New guys will NEVER be able to walk into a NAMBA or IMPBA club and be able to compete with veterans. And new guys with a limited size Neu or Lehner motor will not compete with a veteran running an AQ, Proboat or TP with same size limit. Because we/they don’t have the boat and prop setup knowledge.

    If clubs want more new guys, then clubs need to have classes for off the shelf boats only… with no mods. Like the MMEU SV27 class was. But that class got dated, slow and boring. Clubs need to provide a place where new guys can bring whatever they have and race all in one class with the only limit being no modifications from stock other than prop and battery choice. If they get drawn into the culture, they will then decide if they want to go spend the money to complete in other classes.

    IOW... I'm saying everyone should please stop using the newbies as a reason to limit motors and/or costs. Limiting a motor to $100 is not going to bring a newbie in. Some racers are out there spending $65 to $80 on Snowman (Brian Buaas) props. Props are just as important as a motor and we’re basically telling a newbie that they need to go spend as much on a prop as that motor costs. I don’t hear anyone talking about price limits on props. Can’t because you are only handicapping the newbies there. The veterans don’t necessarily need a Brian Buaas prop. They know how to work their own. Letting a newbie go spend $65 to $80 on a prop is what helps them be competitive.

    A newbie that really digs the culture and hobby of building and racing… will spend the money. As proven by the 4 most recent new members to MMEU. Myself, Dan, Kevin, and Chris have spent some big dollars over the past 24 months on both new boats and mods.

    That's my quarters worth... Well more then the 2 cents I should have been allowed and for that I'm sorry.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by TRUCKPULL View Post
    Doug because you have bigger shoulders then Terry.

    Larry
    Never noticed that. We'll have to get Ken to measure them in Atlanta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    Well, the first step in getting better is admitting the truth to yourself
    Things are looking up.
    TOY BOAT RACER
    Sponsored by Smock Racing
    IMPBA National Records Director
    IMPBA Dist.13 Director
    IMPBA 19887CD
    NAMBA 1169

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Darin hit on my problem with 1/8 scale too. There are no motor limits or motor lists for any other IMPBA FE class. At all. Period. None. Length - cell count. That's it. Those are the limits in the existing IMPBA classes. Scale is the most difficult to build, the most technically complicated class, and requires the most experience to even contemplate. That class is not for newbies or for the faint of heart. So...............let's limit the tech. Stupid. Let the boats determine how fast they should go. Just like every other class. We don't put a "should go about this fast" to look right on an other classes. Some of those other classes get to obscene speeds so it's not safety. .
    Exactly...any particular hull will have its speed limits based on its design (or lack thereof)..Still struggling with choosing a motor for my 1/8th....should be no motor limits.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Smock View Post
    Me to

  8. #68

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    Not sure, and don't frankly care, what the rest of the country, IMPBA, or NAMBA in general, is going to do regarding the topic of P-LTD Power Sytems...

    OUR PSFEMBC club, here in the Puget Sound/Seattle area, voted in favor of running the very basic set of P-LTD Motor Rules that I drafted (merely as an example for discussion at the time...), and everyone thus far is fine with those. After a frank and involved discussion at our winter meeting, most of these "fears" were put to rest with reason, logic, and data.

    I'm not pushing for a set of National rules on this. I've been asked to submit something; to push it up the chain for a vote, etc. Not going to happen from me. Been there, fought that. It's not worth it to me. 99% of the racing people do is in their OWN CLUBS. As long as our local club rules make sense, that's good enough for me. On the rare occasions where I get the opportunity to travel to an event, which likely will only be the Nationals this year, if I have boats that fit a class, I'll race. If I don't, I'll won't. Simple. Stress-Free as well.

    The simple limiting of physical motor dimensions is clear, and makes perfect sense. It's a REAL limit, that doesn't require further discussion. It's ALL-Inclusive, and is completely, totally, and utterly FAIR to all competitors. We don't need KV limits, or cost limits, or weight limits, or color limits, or ONE-Motor limits... This ONE rule update solves it all. If your motor fits physically (Brushless Inrunner design, of course), it races. If your RTR comes with a motor that fits the limits, it races. If your motor is smaller than the limits, it races... If your motor is outside of the dimensions, it doesn't race... Done... NO need for further debate regarding this class, or any updating of the rules, again, ever... Everyone has an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to be competitive.

    There is, however, NO GUARANTEE of competitiveness. That's up to YOU, and YOUR efforts, knowledge, and skills. If a guarantee is what people are looking for, then they don't understand racing, and, frankly, aren't looking to "race"...

    'MERICA!


    P_LIMITED_RULE_COMPLETE.jpg

  9. #69

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    Just for curiousity sake, why no outrunners? I know the Suppo ones I like are a mm to large in diameter and shorter than the rules.

    Is it because of the slight size difference or other factors.

    Btw, I'm all in with a few old gold cans and the more efficient blue cans. Great price on eBay from time to time!

    Thanks for all your hard work and the data you shared!
    Club Galvatron

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by ray schrauwen View Post
    Just for curiousity sake, why no outrunners?
    I originally had those considered, but after consulting with people way brighter and more successful than me, it was decided that it added too much additional variability. Just not worth the hassle for the very, VERY few who would actually want to have them included. Just not easy to equate them...

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    If the goal is to even the play field then we would need to limit the prop and hull... prices, availability and modifications as well.
    And many issues with "spec one motor". To many to even re-hash.
    What I meant was to even the playing field regarding the motor. Let the hull design, prop, and set-up be the competitive part. That's what makes it fun. Trying to find the best motor that meets size rules is just one more variable taking away from the 'prop, set-up, and tweaking' that should define the spec class.

    I guess I can't talk too much, I only made (2) races last year! :) I can't even vote on the club shirt color! :)

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    I originally had those considered, but after consulting with people way brighter and more successful than me, it was decided that it added too much additional variability. Just not worth the hassle for the very, VERY few who would actually want to have them included. Just not easy to equate them...
    For reference, here was the original idea, before it evolved to where it is now. But, if you study motors, you'll see that this doesn't equate the inrunner vs. the outrunner to each other... IN other words, it's not a viable limit. Not Apples to Apples...

    P_LITE_MOTOR_RULE.jpg

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter View Post
    What I meant was to even the playing field regarding the motor.
    That actually IS the idea. There is only so much power that can be transferred from the batteries to the water with a 37x62 in-runner. Sorry Darin, we rounded because the cans were fluctuating all over the place.

    If we actually picked one single motor (right down to the model number) it would then require every person interested in what's supposed to be an entry level class to purchase a new motor for their brand new boats if they race. Then, how do you pick one? Straws? The choice would be endless and we would end up with something someone wanted and others didn't. Then you have the 1/8 scale problem. "Oh, I have to run that motor? Never mind. I'll got do something else with my money."

    One motor doesn't level the playing field anyway. Batteries and speedo can make a difference. To identical boats. One with better batteries or a more efficient speedo and they're not equal anymore.

    Guys need to stop fretting over which motor is best and focus on drive line, straight ride surfaces, edges you can hunt deer with, all these little tiny things add up. 1/8 mph here, 1/8 there and next thing you know you're faster than the guy with the same exact motor. Then learn to drive an oval instead of a peanut. I struggle with that every danged spring. Tight into turn one. Wide at the apex. Lane 6 on the exit. Then compensate until I'm pointed inside the course on the back straight. Now turn left to get back outside the back side entry pin. Have to relearn that every stink'n spring. That's where the racing happens. Not in which motor I picked.
    glue sniffer

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    If we actually picked one single motor (right down to the model number) it would then require every person interested in what's supposed to be an entry level class to purchase a new motor for their brand new boats if they race. Then, how do you pick one? Straws?
    This is the part I didn't think about. Very true. .....but is LSH really entry level? I've always thought of it as the F1 of our hobby!

  15. #75

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    No but limited cat, mono and offshore are. Sort of. They're good classes for newer guys and vets to coexist. Great place to teach and to learn.
    glue sniffer

  16. #76

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    Just to disspell a myth that keeps popping back up here... namely that those running P-LTD want "to run at P-Speeds"...

    The motor on the bottom in this picture is a 36.3mm x 61.2mm Brushless motor... the largest size that would be allowed in P-LTD, or "M-Spec", as Terry likes to confusingly call it... ( )

    The motor on the top is just the BEGINNING of what you might run in a real P sized boat. It's 40mm by I believe 84mm, which is roughly equivalent to the size of a Neu 1521 or 1527.

    Nuff Said... Let's just end that thought right now...

    20160202_193433.jpg

    What P-LTD/M-Spec is trying to do is provide a limited performance 4S Class that utilized relatively inexpensive power systems, and readily available hulls, which would include RTR offerings that are in the 27" - 34" range and come with a standard 36mm x 60mm motor.

  17. #77

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    Yep. We rounded up to 37mmx62mm so that hopefully fluctuations in the production of these will still be legal. The PB motor Darin posted is 36.3x61.2. What happens when it's 36.31? Illegal!

    I need to fix it? Why me? I'm not doing enough for the organization already? Besides, I'm an idiot, I don't even know what "it" is !!

    Because I'm an IMPBA newbie.

    My "it" list
    Get rid of 1/8 registration (no demand)
    Get rid of the 1/8 motor list (no sense)
    Allow twins in P. At least for cats at a minimum. (why not again? Nobody knows)
    Get rid of the single source requirement for twin setups. (because it's dumb)

    If/when this spec thing works we should have a little documentation to back it up. Then maybe do trial run of the rule set. Have the BOD review the idea the right way. Distribute it through the Propwash and such. I think this new approach will hold up where as the old way had a shelf life.
    glue sniffer

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    Yep. We rounded up to 37mmx62mm so that hopefully fluctuations in the production of these will still be legal. The PB motor Darin posted is 36.3x61.2. What happens when it's 36.31? Illegal!
    I don't work from speculation or fear... I work from logic and data...

    P_LITE_MOTOR_SIZES.jpg

  19. #79

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    Darin, with all due respect our rounding to 37mm x 62mm has nothing to do with "speculation or fear". It comes from real data which members of our club have seen some variations in actual sizes for same motors. Even Steve Neu says that there will be some minor variations in sizes due to different production dates and machinery setup. Steve also stated that even though his spec drawings for 14xx series motors show the 1412 as 61mm long, he can not guarantee that all made will not exceed 61mm. He said there needs to be at least a 0.5 to 0.75mm tolerance for machining. And by the way... his spec drawing shows the 14xx series motor as having a diameter of 36.5mm while your spread sheet shows 36.3mm. ???
    And right now I own 14xx series motors that have a diameter of 36.55mm. Same caliper is measuring a TP3630 at 36.15mm.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    And by the way... his spec drawing shows the 14xx series motor as having a diameter of 36.5mm while your spread sheet shows 36.3mm. ???
    And right now I own 14xx series motors that have a diameter of 36.55mm. Same caliper is measuring a TP3630 at 36.15mm.
    Mine are actual measurements of motors that were sitting on my bench...

    It's all "rules-creep" to me... Next thing they'll start making 1412s in a "37mmx62mm" can, and they'll measure 37.1mm, and people will be wanting more "tolerance"...

  21. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    Mine are actual measurements of motors that were sitting on my bench...

    It's all "rules-creep" to me... Next thing they'll start making 1412s in a "37mmx62mm" can, and they'll measure 37.1mm, and people will be wanting more "tolerance"...
    Darin... My measurements are from motors sitting on MY bench as well. And my motors measure 36.55mm.
    I guess I will never run in your club because your motors measure 36.3mm and that's the rule. Even though the manufacture's drawing even shows a diameter of 36.5mm.

    How does that make sense to cap at what's on YOUR bench which doesn't even match the manufacture specs? And now I've just made you aware that there are real 14xx motors on someone's bench measuring 36.55mm

    Darin, you can do what you'd like with your club and set of rules. Just don't appreciate you categorizing our rules as being based on "speculation and fear".
    We have two data points that show a Neu 14xx motor is between 36.5mm to 36.55mm and you have your rules set based on one data point at 36.3mm.

    And if Neu ever starts making 1412s at 37mm x 62mm then any motor that exceeds that will have to be sent back for exceeding spec drawings and reasonable tolerances.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  22. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    DWe have two data points that show a Neu 14xx motor is between 36.5mm to 36.55mm and you have your rules set based on one data point at 36.3mm.

    And if Neu ever starts making 1412s at 37mm x 62mm then any motor that exceeds that will have to be sent back for exceeding spec drawings and reasonable tolerances.
    You are assuming that people were interested in including NEUs in the process when this all started... That was a specific "fear" at the time...

    And, don't kid yourself... The only reason these rules go through such broad and wild discussions is because of VAST speculation, and a lot of fear...

    Round away... It doesn't matter to me one iota... as long as it's capped...

  23. #83

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    We will and we will push for that to be the set rule if there ever is a set rule.
    We at MMEU do not want to see someone disqualified from racing because their motor measures 36.55mm. And then have to tell them... "Well, it doesn't match what was on Darin Jordan's bench." We'll go with what manufactures are telling us. Spec sheet shows 36.5mm and manufactures states that there needs to be some tolerances for manufacturing. That just makes sense to us and it's not speculation or fear.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  24. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    That just makes sense to us and it's not speculation or fear.
    It makes sense to me as well, clearly, but then, I've been there from the beginning, when Terry and I were working through this. At THAT time, yes, there was, as with BL motor, Lipos, etc., LOTs of "fear and speculation" going on, driving many to argue. It's what prompted me to do the motor testing in the first place... It's easy to say it makes sense NOW, now that it's in place and making "sense" to people, but I was in the trenches... I have people, some from your area, still thinking I've ruined this hobby, after all. :)

    You aren't going to get an argument from me on your 37mm x 62mm spec... whatever. It'll work fine and definitely is inclusive. It just will include motors that others were "fearful" of. Just the reality of it.

    Make it happen!

  25. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
    My "it" list
    Get rid of 1/8 registration (no demand)
    Get rid of the 1/8 motor list (no sense)
    Allow twins in P. At least for cats at a minimum. (why not again? Nobody knows)
    Get rid of the single source requirement for twin setups. (because it's dumb)
    Terry
    I must have mist this one:
    Single source requirement for twin setups.

    Where did you find it?

    Allow twins in P. At least for cats at a minimum.
    I already sold my "P" Cat because of this rule, I lost well over $500 on it.

    Larry
    Past NAMBA- P Mono -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Past NAMBA- P Sport -1 Mile Race Record holder
    Bump & Grind Racing Props -We Like Em Smooth & Wet

  26. #86

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    I'll assume that whatever measuring device each club uses will have a calibration certificate traceable back to a NIST standard. Also, motor measurements need to be made in a climate controlled environment.

    Otherwise clubs could actually "control" the motors allowed to run. Some measure fine...others are just a tad over and a big no no.

    Perhaps there should be one IMPBA measurement device (or NAMBA, or God forbid both organizations share one) that is sent around to each club for there use in determining compliance.

    But then again, during transport something could happen and the device would have to be re-calibrated to NIST before use. (with supporting documentation of course).

    I can just see the legal challenges in court happening in the near future.

    Here are some links to help clear all this up.

    https://www.nist.gov/

    https://www.ncsli.org/c/f/p12/REG_2012.PRE.558.1664.pdf

    http://www.rhopointmetrology.com/met...struments.html

    https://www.qualitydigest.com/magazi...ge-misuse.html

    http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...nstrument.aspx



    I'm bored.

  27. #87

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    Well Darin, one place we can fully agree is that the Lehner 1930 w/fan shouldn't be allowed which measures 62.0mm long.
    At the time of our vote I raised protest that we should go with 61.5mm max to make sure that motor is excluded.

    Now we have word that a Florida club place a price cap in order to block that motor.

    But it's all good... a couple of our members are going to run them this season and we'll see what happens. I'm just pushing that (if there is an issue) we do not go with a price limit. Just need to pull back the size to 61.5mm and the problem is fixed.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  28. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby View Post
    I'll assume that whatever measuring device each club uses will have a calibration certificate traceable back to a NIST standard. Also, motor measurements need to be made in a climate controlled environment.

    Otherwise clubs could actually "control" the motors allowed to run. Some measure fine...others are just a tad over and a big no no.
    Agreed... yet another reason for some tolerance.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

  29. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by dethow View Post
    Well Darin, one place we can fully agree is that the Lehner 1930 w/fan shouldn't be allowed which measures 62.0mm long.
    That motor doesn't scare me in the least... it's a 2-Pole, and with that fan in there, the rotor/stator are actually shorter... Bring it...

  30. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Jordan View Post
    That motor doesn't scare me in the least... it's a 2-Pole, and with that fan in there, the rotor/stator are actually shorter... Bring it...
    I hear you... and I don't have the experience to say. That's why I backed down from my protest quickly... well that and after being verbally assaulted by another member basically telling me to shut up.
    We'll see what happens this season. One of our guys has already burned one up after 4 laps of testing.
    C/F TFL Pursuit Mono, C/F TFL Cheetah Cat, C/F TFL Ariane Mono, ML Boatworks GP310 Sport Hydro, Black Pearl Sport Hydro

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